DC Comics - Remove "possibly" for the Darkest Knight

[Transcending]

In order to say someone is using plot manipulation in a fight, they have to be in a position of author-esque superiority over something and be shown to recognize that it is fictional,

Donttalk DT told me that the Old Man has Plot Manip without that.

I'm not saying that Mandrakks abilities can't, in any context, be called "plot manipulation" but rather I am asserting that this ability has a very specific meaning on the website and it is not used to describe stuff like what Mandrakk has done.

So are you trying to argue against Mandrakk's Plot Manip or argue he has a limited one?

 

[Deagonx]

Donttalk DT told me that the Old Man has Plot Manip without that.

Sorry, I am not sure what you mean.

So are you trying to argue against Mandrakk's Plot Manip or argue he has a limited one?

I am arguing that Mandrakk's abilities are somewhat meta, but the VSBW page for "Plot Manipulation" describes author-level control of something, in the specific context of literally warping reality at their whim by rewriting a story.

It is difficult to view Mandrakk's abilities in this context because he lost every fight he's been in, and when he has been successful at fighting people it has always just been through power. He's never displayed the ability to affect realms lower than him in an author-like way.

I think it would be better to describe Mandrakk's powers in a different context, rather than getting carried away into Plot Manip because of the metatextual elements in Superman Beyond.

 

[Transcending]

Sorry, I am not sure what you mean.

Basically, in this thread:

Kratos (God of War) vs The Old Man of Wandering Mountain (Concept vs Plot)

POH Kratos the old man Speed is not equal, otherwise SBA

vsbattles.com

I asked DT if R>f is necessary for Plot Manip and he said that the Old Man can manipulate the plot in his world despite not being transcendent to it.

I think it would be better to describe Mandrakk's powers in a different context, rather than getting carried away into Plot Manip because of the metatextual elements in Superman Beyond.

We should wait for input on this. Should I call Xearsay again?

 

[Deagonx]

I asked DT if R>f is necessary for Plot Manip and he said that the Old Man can manipulate the plot in his world despite not being transcendent to it.

I'd agree that R>F is not a strict requirement. But to be clear, I have literally no knowledge of this character, so I can't speak to it at all.

We should wait for input on this

Yeah I'm not trying to issue a decree or something, just offering my perspective.

 

[Transcending]

Looks acceptable I guess.

Sure, Mandrakk having plot manipulation seems fine.

What do you guys think about Deagon's perspective?

 

[Elizio33]

All scans from Death Metal #7

So this is what is currently stated in The Darkest Knight's profile:

Let's see the statements for TDK>Hands and then I will explain why TDK didn't contradict himself.

​

Darkest Knight>Hands​

There are four main statements for this.

Scan 1. This scan is not as blatant as the other scans but it does give the implication that TDK is superior to The Hands. This scan is also the most popular one used by fans to claim TDK>

Scan 2. This scan is very blatant. When Wonder Woman is about to defeat TDK by pushing him into the Death Sun, he explicitly says that he can kill The Hands.

Scan 3. This scan is by far the best evidence, as The Hands themselves directly confirm their inferiority to TDK. They quite literally mention how WW saved them from him. This makes sense, considering TDK was consistently portrayed in the storyline to be a threat to the entire Multiverse, all creation and existence.

Scan 4. This is the controversial scan, TDK explicitly states again that he could kill The Hands but due to some misinterpretation of the text, some have been led to believe he contradicted himself on that statement. I will address this here.

The Darkest Knight did not contradict himself​

The controversy comes from the third speech bubble of the scan. I will state the entire quote here:

The keyword there is "will". What does will mean? According to google: expressing the future tense.

He's not saying that the Hands are presently stronger than him, he's saying that they will get stronger than him in the future if WW fights him. You may think I am playing with semantics, but I am not, because when you look at the larger context, it makes perfect sense.

Let's take a look at what's happening in the scan. TDK tells WW that she has only two choices.

1: In the first choice, she would fight him pointlessly until the Hands get more powerful than them and destroy the Universe.

2: In the second choice, she would not fight him but would rather give up and surrender. In this case, TDK would go kill The Hands and then give WW and her friends a paradise.

What he's saying basically, is not that The Hands are stronger than him. If that was the case, the second choice would make no sense. What he's saying is that, if WW fights him, they would both get weakened and this in turn would make the Hands superior to them. The Hands are, not in their base, superior, but they are, when TDK and WW are not at their prime. This is especially strengthened by the fact that TDK was powered up by Crisis Energy while WW was powered up by Anti-Crisis Energy. Neither of those energies are unlimited, if used too much, they can end. They are limited power sources that needs to be recharged. Granted, both TDK and WW did have strong supplies, but just a point to note.

Now assume my interpretation is the truth. There wouldn't be any contradiction(which there shouldn't be for nigh-omniscient characters anyway). TDK is merely saying that he's more powerful in his base form, but weaker in his lesser forms. The Hands themselves confirm this, making it pretty much legit.

Something irrelevant to the rest of my post​

Not really relevant to the rest of my post, and not something I care about nearly as much, but I asked in the Q&A forum if Perpetua and TDK gets plot manip for ripping apart stories and the answer was a yes

https://vsbattles.com/threads/is-this-plot-manip.139133/

The Hands can also destroy stories, so maybe Perpetua and co. should get Plot Manip?

Conclusion​

The Darkest Knight doesn't just possibly scale to the Hands, he fully and completely scales to, and above them. He should hence lose his "possibly".

Also, while counterarguments are welcome(I am all for a good discussion), please remember to be civil. Insults take away the fun after all!

EDIT: The CRT was passed and applied but now we have to worry about In-Multiverse Perpetua's ratings. Here's why I think she should get a possibly/likely/solid 1-A too.

1: The power to create the Source Wall(1-A) wasn't enough to beat her when she was weakened(Justice League #33)

2: She could rival The Darkest Knight who is now no longer Low 1-C but a solid 1-A(Death Metal: Rise of the New God)

3: The Anti-Monitor when becoming the Ultra-Monitor said he was beyond anything he was before, which would include his True Form(1-A). A weakened Perpetua not only matched the Ultra-Monitor but he also admitted his power alone wasn't enough to beat her(still weakened)(Justice League #33)

Alright, I agree the Darkest Knight was a threat to The Hands but he's not superior to them. He's a bit stronger than Perpetua though. You gave good points like the one about the Crisis and Anti-Crisis Energies which is true enough, but the Darkest Knight said he wanted to use his newly created fifty-two universes against The Hands, indicating he needed a weapon to do so.

Let me explain the whole context instead in a brief but effective way.

The Darkest Knight created fifty-two universes which he would have used to surround Earth-0 which was the center of the Multiverse before Infinite Frontier. Doing this would have turned the Multiverse into a weapon he would use against gods like Perpetua, aka The Hands. There are three scans supporting my claims, which are the ones I showed you.

***

I disagree with Plot Manipulation. It is clearly evident that "destroying stories in their fight" in this context refers to them destroying the Multiverse.

***

I disagree about removing Perpetua's weakened state.

First off, Kendra has some of the Cosmic Raptor power in her wings and there's no reason to believe she has the full power of the Raptor.

***

When Perpetua fought against the Darkest Knight, she was indeed at full power, so 1-A might apply.

***

It is true that Mobius said that the power of the Ultra-Monitor was unlike anything he had felt before, but you have to remember that this fight (Perpetua vs Ultra-Monitor) was in the Promethean Galaxy, at the edge of the universe, and the Monitors' power drops dramatically when outside of the Sixth Dimension. So the weakened Perpetua should be 2-A considering that she could stalemate the Ultra-Monitor who scale from 2-A Coie Anti-Monitor and could control Hypertime which integrates infinite timelines.

 

[Transcending]

Alright, I agree the Darkest Knight was a threat to The Hands but he's not superior to them. You gave good points like the one about the Crisis and Anti-Crisis Energies which is true enough, but the Darkest Knight said he wanted to use his newly created fifty-two universes against The Hands

This point is debunked by something you said later-

Doing this would have turned the Multiverse into a weapon he would use against gods like Perpetua, aka The Hands

And by something TDK himself said, that he was going to use the Multiverse against Perpetua.

Thing is, he didn't actually use that Multiverse as a weapon against Perpetua. He defeated her with his own power, and even later while going to fight the Hands, he didn't take his Multiverse with him. In fact, by the end, The Hands were literally there to beat him and he didn't have his Multiverse.

One of the scans you posted is pretty important, namely, this. If you look closer, he says that, if he wins, he will use the Multiverse to fight the Source.

He wasn't going to use his Multiverse against The Hands, but instead, after beating them, he would turn the Multiverse into a weapon to fight the Source.

The Darkest Knight created fifty-two universes which he would have used to surround Earth-0 which was the center of the Multiverse before Infinite Frontier. Doing this would have turned the Multiverse into a weapon he would use against gods like Perpetua, aka The Hands. There are three scans supporting my claims, which are the ones I showed you.

Look above, he was never going to use the worlds to fight The Hands or Perpetua. In fact, he defeated Perpetua without them. He was only going to weaponize the Multiverse to fight the Source. And even in the scan where he supposedly said he would have used the Multiverse against gods like Perpetua, he stated that he was going to use planets against her. Certainly planets aren't going to increase his AP by much, over 99% of the power would have still been his.

Plus he created his Multiverse with his own power so...

I disagree with Plot Manipulation. It is clearly evident that "destroying stories in their fight" in this context refers to them destroying the Multiverse.

Plot Manip was already rejected

First off, Kendra has some of the Cosmic Raptor power in her wings and there's no reason to believe she has the full power of the Raptor

Not really relevant, the Monitor Brothers explicitly stated that the power within Kendra created the Source Wall. Even if she didn't have the Raptor's full power, she still had the part that created the Source Wall.

It is true that Mobius said that the power of the Ultra-Monitor was unlike anything he had felt before, but you have to remember that this fight (Perpetua vs Ultra-Monitor) was in the Promethean Galaxy, at the edge of the universe, and the Monitors' power drops dramatically when outside of the Sixth Dimension.

I don't see why their powers decreasing is relevant, AM specifically stated that he was more powerful than ever. Why would he forget his time in the Sixth Dimension? He might be weaker than he is in the Sixth Dimension alone but with the combined power of his brothers, himself, and the Totality, he was definitely more powerful than himself in 6D.

 

[Xearsay]

As I said in my last comment, from Mandrakks existence the Multiverse is seen as containing stories. And Mandrakk along with the Monitors were feeding on the stories within, turning themselves into cosmic vampires. Which can be considered plot manipulation.

Also the entire realm of Nil, the Monitors, and their history was created by story spreading after CAS infected the Overvoid with narratives. With this reality being governed by something called a “Hyperstory” which Mandrakk was implied to be manipulating. Which is another example of plot manipulation.

There’s more examples that I listed in my last comment however when you combine the information said in the story with the statements from Grant Morrison, it becomes very obvious that Morrison was trying to express Mandrakk as a being who could manipulate the plot.

 

[Transcending]

Bump

 

[Recap_]

Bump

What's left to you do in this thread?

 

[Transcending]

Idk

What's left to you do in this thread?

 

[Recap_]

Idk

Barbatos 1-A

 

[Transcending]

Barbatos 1-A

I think I will have to make another CRT on that, which I probably might

 

[Recap_]

I think I will have to make another CRT on that, which I probably might

Oh i'm just kidding but if do I will support you.

 

[Elizio33]

This point is debunked by something you said later-

And by something TDK himself said, that he was going to use the Multiverse against Perpetua.

Thing is, he didn't actually use that Multiverse as a weapon against Perpetua. He defeated her with his own power, and even later while going to fight the Hands, he didn't take his Multiverse with him. In fact, by the end, The Hands were literally there to beat him and he didn't have his Multiverse.

One of the scans you posted is pretty important, namely, this. If you look closer, he says that, if he wins, he will use the Multiverse to fight the Source.

He wasn't going to use his Multiverse against The Hands, but instead, after beating them, he would turn the Multiverse into a weapon to fight the Source.


Look above, he was never going to use the worlds to fight The Hands or Perpetua. In fact, he defeated Perpetua without them. He was only going to weaponize the Multiverse to fight the Source. And even in the scan where he supposedly said he would have used the Multiverse against gods like Perpetua, he stated that he was going to use planets against her. Certainly planets aren't going to increase his AP by much, over 99% of the power would have still been his.

Plus he created his Multiverse with his own power so...


Plot Manip was already rejected


Not really relevant, the Monitor Brothers explicitly stated that the power within Kendra created the Source Wall. Even if she didn't have the Raptor's full power, she still had the part that created the Source Wall.

I don't see why their powers decreasing is relevant, AM specifically stated that he was more powerful than ever. Why would he forget his time in the Sixth Dimension? He might be weaker than he is in the Sixth Dimension alone but with the combined power of his brothers, himself, and the Totality, he was definitely more powerful than himself in 6D.

I never said he used the Multiverse against Perpetua, I said he wanted to use the Multiverse against The Hands. And the TDK has made it clear that he wanted to weaponize the Multiverse to kill gods like Perpetua and those gods are The Hands. It was his plan.

Yes, in one of the scans i posted TDK said "planets" but in DC Comics, context is king. When he says planets he means universes because TDK Multiverse is basically a twisted, dystopian version of the 52 Multiverse whose various Earths are alternate universes rather than planets, but anyway I'm off topic now. Just to say that planets in this context mean universes.

For the Ultra-Monitor, 1-A seems way too high for him and the fact that the power of the monitors drops dramatically on a lower plane of existence is relevant despite Mobius' statement.

 

[Transcending]

I never said he used the Multiverse against Perpetua, I said he wanted to use the Multiverse against The Hands.

I am referring to what your scan said, in which he said he would kill gods like Perpetua with his Multiverse's planets, which he never actually did, countering your point.

And the TDK has made it clear that he wanted to weaponize the Multiverse to kill gods like Perpetua and those gods are The Hands. It was his plan.

So gods like Perpetua wouldn't include Perpetua herself? He's saying he was going to kill gods, and an example of those gods was Perpetua, which he mentioned, but he wouldn't kill his literal example with the Multiverse?

Even if he wanted to kill The Hands with his Multiverse initially, he changed his mind later, which I explained in my previous post. But you... ignored half of my points including my explanation. Please don't select points to respond to and ignore everything else. I even explained before why even if he used the Multiverse to fight The Hands, it would have been irrelevant.

Yes, in one of the scans i posted TDK said "planets" but in DC Comics, context is king. When he says planets he means universes because TDK Multiverse is basically a twisted, dystopian version of the 52 Multiverse whose various Earths are alternate universes rather than planets, but anyway I'm off topic now. Just to say that planets in this context mean universes.

Ok.

For the Ultra-Monitor, 1-A seems way too high for him and the fact that the power of the monitors drops dramatically on a lower plane of existence is relevant despite Mobius' statement.

Firstly, when the revisions come, the 1-A rating will likely be nuked. Secondly, even if you ignore AM's statement, UM still matched a 1-A Perpetua so he should retain his tier. Thirdly, their power decreasing in lower planes is irrelevant. AM specifically stated that he felt power beyond anything he had felt before. "Before" includes his time in 6D, why would he forget his time there? As I said before, his power is low alone, but when combined with his brothers and the Totality, he's more powerful than his True Form. Nothing has stated otherwise.

 

[Antvasima]

I strongly agree with Deagonx and Elizio here. Strong metafictional references do not remotely equate to genuine plot manipulation according to our official standards. My apologies, but that suggestion has been officially firmly rejected.

 

[Transcending]

I strongly agree with Deagonx and Elizio here. Strong metafictional references do not remotely equate to genuine plot manipulation according to our official standards. My apologies, but that suggestion has been officially firmly rejected.

But we already left Plot Manipulation for Perpetua and co. a long time ago? Me and Elizio were debating on if TDK is superior to The Hands

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Has plot manipulation been removed from Mandrakk, Cosmic Armor Superman, Perpetua, Anti-Monitor, Monitor, World Forger, Ultra-Monitor, and The Darkest Knight?

 

[Transcending]

Okay. Has plot manipulation been removed from Mandrakk, Cosmic Armor Superman, Perpetua, and The Darkest Knight?

Mandrakk? No. CAS? Never had it. Perpetua and TDK? A long time ago.

CAS has resistance to Plot Manip however

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will unlock Mandrakk and Cosmic Armor Superman then. Tell me here when you are done.

 

[Transcending]

Okay. I will unlock Mandrakk and Cosmic Armor Superman then. Tell me here when you are done.

Wait, we never discussed if CAS should have resistance to Plot Manip

 

[Antvasima]

It is derived from him fighting Mandrakk, so if Mandrakk does not have plot manipulation, CAS does not have resistance to it.

Anyway, I have unlocked the pages in question.

The Thought Robot

The Thought Robot is a remnant of Science Monitor Dax Novu, the extension of Monitor-Mind the Overvoid that examined the Multiverse and split in two. It was left floating next to creation in the Void, until the Monitor Sphere formed around it and it became incorporated into the story of the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Mandrakk the Dark Monitor

Mandrakk is the corrupted version of half of the original extension of Monitor-Mind the Overvoid that examined the Multiverse before splitting and leaving behind the Thought Robot. Mandrakk locked himself away in the Pit to await the Final Crisis of the Monitors, when he would rise from the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Transcending]

Actually no, it is derived from him resisting a hyperstory-

(Resisted being inside a self-assembling hyper story trying to destroy him)

 

[Antvasima]

Wasn't that described effect created by Mandrakk?

 

[Deagonx]

Actually no, it is derived from him resisting a hyperstory-

It takes a lot of extrapolation that isn't present in the comic to see this as plot manipulation.

Wasn't that described effect created by Mandrakk?

No. Probably not. Later in the text CAS says "the inexorable logic of a living story drives us towards it's conclusion" which seemed to indicate to me that the hyperstory is something both of them are inside of, and which ultimately led to both of them dying.

However, I don't feel that it represents plot manipulation and the fact that CAS died at the end suggests he did not actually resist it.

 

[Transcending]

I won't argue it as Plot Manip, I was simply giving the current reasoning

 

[Antvasima]

No. Probably not. Later in the text CAS says "the inexorable logic of a living story drives us towards it's conclusion" which seemed to indicate to me that the hyperstory is something both of them are inside of, and which ultimately led to both of them dying.

However, I don't feel that it represents plot manipulation and the fact that CAS died at the end suggests he did not actually resist it.

Okay. That makes sense. Would you or somebody else here be willing to handle the editing in question then?

 

[Antvasima]

I won't argue it as Plot Manip, I was simply giving the current reasoning

Okay. No problem.

 

[Deagonx]

Okay. That makes sense. Would you or somebody else here be willing to handle the editing in question then?

I can later today.

 

[Xearsay]

This argument that because they were inside the Hyperstory somehow invalidates plot manipulation doesn’t make any sense. Manipulating the plot that governs the world one is in, is still plot manipulation.

Also CAS dying in the end doesn’t invalidate resistance to plot manipulation. As he died from the side effect of his injuries and not from plot manipulation.

 

[Deagonx]

This argument that because they were inside the Hyperstory somehow invalidates plot manipulation doesn’t make any sense.

No one said that. I said "they were both inside the story, so it's not likely that the effect came from Mandrakk."

Manipulating and resisting the plot that governs the world one is in, is still plot manipulation.

No, it isn't. At least, not according to site standards. If you're arguing against the site standard for what plot manipulation is, then make a thread about that and do not derail this one.

 

[Antvasima]

I can later today.

Thank you for helping out. Tell me here when you are done please, so I know when to re-lock the two pages.

 

[Xearsay]

No one said that. I said "they were both inside the story, so it's not likely that the effect came from Mandrakk."

That doesn’t make any sense either.

No, it isn't. At least, not according to site standards. If you're arguing against the site standard for what plot manipulation is, then make a thread about that and do not derail this one.

Nowhere in the plot manipulation page does it mention that I’m wrong on this. One can manipulate the plot of a world they’re in and still be given plot manipulation.

 

[Deagonx]

That doesn’t make any sense either.

If you aren't going to explain your reasoning, don't waste everyone's time.

Nowhere in the plot manipulation page does it mention that I’m wrong on this

See above.

One can manipulate the plot of a world they’re in and still be given plot manipulation.

I never argued otherwise.

 

[Xearsay]

Thank you for helping out. Tell me here when you are done please, so I know when to re-lock the two pages.

Also why the hell did you unlock the pages to apply a change to a character based off a single response from one person expressing their disagreement? How is that fair?

 

[Deagonx]

Also why the hell did you unlock the pages to apply a change to a character based off a single response from one person expressing their disagreement?

This is inaccurate. This thread is five pages long, and discussions about plot manipulation took place extensively. Further, stop acting so aggressive and hostile.

 

[Xearsay]

If you aren't going to explain your reasoning, don't waste everyone's time.

I mean you’re trying to correlate two things that don’t correlate. Beings can manipulate the plot that governs the worlds they’re in. So Mandrakk being within the hyperstory has no correlation to whether he’s manipulating it or not.

See above.

I never argued otherwise.

Yes you did. When I mentioned that beings can manipulate the plot of the world they’re in and still be given plot manipulation, you replied saying this.

“At least, not according to site standards. If you're arguing against the site standard for what plot manipulation is, then make a thread about that and do not derail this one.”

 

[Xearsay]

This is inaccurate. This thread is five pages long, and discussions about plot manipulation took place extensively. Further, stop acting so aggressive and hostile.

We barely discussed Mandrakks plot manipulation. And even then that still doesn’t address the fact that Antvasima is attempting to make a change without a fair evaluation.

 

[Deagonx]

Beings can manipulate the plot that governs the worlds they’re in. So Mandrakk being within the hyperstory has no correlation to whether he’s manipulating it or not.

I don't know how many different ways I can repeat this. My comment about Mandrakk being in the hyperstory was not about whether or not he is capable of manipulating the plot, it was in regards to the question of whether or not the effect "hyperstory is trying to destroy me" came from Mandrakk or not. Nothing in the story says it's from Mandrakk, and Mandrakk himself was subjected to this destruction, so I explained that this effect likely didn't come from Mandrakk himself. You need to make the effort to read and understand the context of discussion before making these tedious objections.

When I mentioned that beings can manipulate the plot of the world they’re in and still be given plot manipulation, you replied saying this.

My statement there had nothing to do with internal manipulation of a plot. Good grief.

We barely discussed Mandrakks plot manipulation. And even then that still doesn’t address the fact that Antvasima is attempting to make a change without a fair evaluation.

We discussed it to satisfaction. Your objection is not a justification for being toxic to other members.