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DC Comics - Remove "possibly" for the Darkest Knight

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I think that we need some mention or demonstration of that first.
 
We cannot just base it on guesswork. He might just use advanced equipment within his helmet.
 
Maybe, but with no rationale for him gaining such a power, it seems too speculative and unreliable.
 
Never mind fallacies. If there is no given reason for a version of Bruce Wayne gaining enhanced senses and it has never been mentioned that he has them, and he might simply have advanced surveillance equipment within the helmet, it legitimately does seem very speculative of us to begin to assume things.
 
Antvasima said:
Never mind fallacies. If there is no given reason for a version of Bruce Wayne gaining enhanced senses and it has never been mentioned that he has them, and he might simply have advanced surveillance equipment within the helmet, it legitimately does seem very speculative of us to begin to assume things.
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I was...joking, bruh.
 
Antvasima said:
Never mind fallacies. If there is no given reason for a version of Bruce Wayne gaining enhanced senses and it has never been mentioned that he has them, and he might simply have advanced surveillance equipment within the helmet, it legitimately does seem very speculative of us to begin to assume things.
Click to expand...
that was a joke....

joke-battles.fandom.com

The Hippopatamus Fallacy

The Hippopotamus has no bound. The first person to say "this falls under the hippopotamus fallacy" automatically wins the debate no matter what happens. no if and's or but's
joke-battles.fandom.com joke-battles.fandom.com
 
Antvasima said:
Never mind fallacies. If there is no given reason for a version of Bruce Wayne gaining enhanced senses and it has never been mentioned that he has them, and he might simply have advanced surveillance equipment within the helmet, it legitimately does seem very speculative of us to begin to assume things.
Click to expand...
If he has a feat for it, your argument here is just head canon.

Ant, you know better than anyone that you can’t just make shit up on this wiki.
 
It should be noted that him using some sort of advanced equipment was never mentioned afaik, so it's a baseless possibility, and the possibilities are endless.
 
My intended point was that we do not have any explicit evidence in any direction regarding TBWL having enhanced senses via technological equipment, inherent powers, or otherwise.
 
Anyway, what else is left to do here, if anything?
 
Antvasima said:
My intended point was that we do not have any explicit evidence in any direction regarding TBWL having enhanced senses via technological equipment, inherent powers, or otherwise.
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Since him using technology is an extra assumption, we should be able to apply Occam's Razor. But to clear everything is why I said "possibly", which is what we usually use in situations like this to my understanding.
Antvasima said:
Anyway, what else is left to do here, if anything?
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Enhanced senses, and Mandrakk's Plot Manip if we need more input than Xearsay.
 
Transcending said:
Since him using technology is an extra assumption, we should be able to apply Occam's Razor. But to clear everything is why I said "possibly", which is what we usually use in situations like this to my understanding.
Click to expand...
Well, I suppose that "Possibly Enhanced Senses" might work in lack of better options.
Transcending said:
Enhanced senses, and Mandrakk's Plot Manip if we need more input than Xearsay.
Click to expand...
@Firestorm808 @Qawsedf234 @LordTracer @Eficiente @Maverick_Zero_X @Deagonx

What do you think about this?
 
Thank you. I suppose that the only issue left to decide here is whether or not Mandrakk should keep his plot manipulation then?
 
Xearsay said:
Just to give some input on the plot manipulation thing involving Mandrakk since I was asked.

Starting off, from Mandrakks level of existence DC is essentially a story. We can go back to Final Crisis Superman Beyond and The Multiversity and see that within the Overvoid where Mandrakk was, DC is presented as this flaw containing stories and an endless narrative.

Here's the scan from The Multiversity which describes the multiverse as an endless play of matter and narrative.

Scan 1 (Multiversity Guidebook #1)

And here's the scans from Final Crisis which also establish how when Mandrakk first inspected the flaw he discovered that it was essentially a structure containing stories.

Scan 1 (Final Crisis Superman Beyond #1)

Scan 2 (Final Crisis Superman Beyond #1)

It is important to note from the second scan that it mentions how the Overvoid became haunted by the mystery of the Thought Robot who infected the Overvoid with narratives causing story to spread like a contagion. Once this legend took root, the Monitors, their history, and the Monitor Sphere were created as an added layer to the Multiverse, with Mandrakk adopting the role as this vampiric, devil like figure who's desire is to destroy existence and the Thought Robot adopting the role as existences savior.

What this means is that basically Nil/The Monitor Sphere and the Monitors were byproducts of the formation of a story with Mandrakk and the Thought Robot adopting biblical like figures/forms within said story. Proving that the concept of story plays an actual foundational role in the formation of existence within the cosmology that beings and structures within the Multiverse are byproducts of. And we know this to be the case through multiple pieces of evidence.

The Monitors themselves are recognized by the Thought Robot as being once faceless and numberless until their essential nature was changed by narratives which formed around them like crystals in solution.

Scan 1(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2)

And Mandrakk was capable of one shotting these beings.

Scan 1(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2)

Another example is the Thought Robot who is also considered to be a literal story that Mandrakk was capable of harming which was displayed all throughout the fight scene in Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2.

Scan 1(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2)

The Multiverse which is treated as containing stories was being drained dry by the Monitors who's true nature is the same as Mandrakks.

Scan 1(Final Crisis Superman Beyond #2)

There is also this "self assembling hyperstory" thing that was mentioned when the Thought Robot was fighting Mandrakk. The Thought Robot would describe this hyperstory as something that was "trying it's best to destroy him." Taking into account everything I've mentioned already, I believe that this hyperstory is what formed and governs the Monitor Sphere and the Monitors after the event that happened in the Overvoid. Additionally, I also believe Mandrakk was the one manipulating this story. Which makes sense as the Thought Robot only becomes aware of this hyperstory the moment Mandrakk starts fighting him and Mandrakk is the only one there who wants to destroy him.

So all in all, I think Mandrakk should definitely keep his plot manipulation. There's proof of the concept of story being something foundational in the formation of existence and being within the cosmology and there's proof of Mandrakk manipulating and destroying things that are defined as a story/narrative. And that's not even taking into account all of the author statements from Grant Morrison which imply Mandrakk has plot manipulation.
Click to expand...
 
Okay. Mandrakk can probably keep the power in question then. Thank you for helping out. 🙏

Does his VSB wiki profile page need to be modified in this regard, or is there nothing left to do in this thread?
 
Transcending said:
@Beyond_transcending asked me to say that, using @Xearsay's scans, anyone who can destroy the Orrery has Plot Manip, and hence TDK, Perpetua, and the Hands need it.
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Hmm. It seems unreliable to add that power to them if it wasn't clearly displayed or referred to during their storylines. We did not see them rewrite the plot and treat their opponents as figments to be dispelled, for example. Especially as we plan to split the DC Comics cosmology as soon as possible.

@Deagonx @Elizio33 @Firestorm808

What do you think?
 
No, but the true Mandrakk was strictly contending with another being on his own level of reality, while attempting to unravel all of it as a whole.

If other characters of comparable or greater power level interacted with regular superheroes and supervillains, they could just write "And then I won, and all of my opponents never existed. The end." and that would be it.
 
Antvasima said:
If other characters of comparable or greater power level interacted with regular superheroes and supervillains, they could just write "And then I won, and all of my opponents never existed. The end." and that would be it.
Click to expand...
TDK didn't want to kill them, at least, not right then. He was fighting Golden Wonder Woman who is on his level. TDK is definitely not on the level of normal superheroes.
 
Antvasima said:
No, but the true Mandrakk was strictly contending with another being on his own level of reality, while attempting to unravel all of it as a whole.

If other characters of comparable or greater power level interacted with regular superheroes and supervillains, they could just write "And then I won, and all of my opponents never existed. The end." and that would be it.
Click to expand...
Just because they don't regularly use plot manip doesn't mean they don't have it though, it's their choice to use it
 
Beyond_transcending said:
Just because they don't regularly use plot manip doesn't mean they don't have it though, it's their choice to use it
Click to expand...
I think the point that Antvasima is trying to get at is that the metatextual aspects of Mandrakks fight with CAS, and of his existence, are not really what "Plot Manipulation" as defined in the wiki is really about.

Look at the examples on the official page.

  • Users may be able to determine how things will proceed by writing into the plot what is going to happen (emulating fate, causality and/or probability manipulation).
  • Users may be able transform things into other things by altering their description in the plot.
  • Users may be able to retroactively change the past, by changing what is recorded about the past in the plot.
  • Users may be able to control the action and/or thoughts of others by writing what they do or think into the plot.
  • Users may create things by writing that they are present into the plot.
  • Users may erase things by erasing any mention of them from the plot.
Did Mandrakk ever do any of this? No. He never determined how things would proceed, he didn't change the past, he didn't control others actions, or create things, or erase things by editing the plot.

Plot manipulation is about a literal ability to edit the plot of a story as if you were an author and have profound irreversible impact on how it turns out. Neither Mandrakk nor TDK ever showed an ability like that.

In order to say someone is using plot manipulation in a fight, they have to be in a position of author-esque superiority over something and be shown to recognize that it is fictional, and literally change the plot of it.

I'm not saying that Mandrakks abilities can't, in any context, be called "plot manipulation" but rather I am asserting that this ability has a very specific meaning on the website and it is not used to describe stuff like what Mandrakk has done.
 
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