Upgrade every bubble/world from Maou Gakuin to tier 2A

[Orioreeem]

aren't uncountably infinite 4d universes 5d?

It is, but i don't see how relevant that is here

 

[Arthex]

It is, but i don't see how relevant that is here

if bubbles are 2a themselves and there are infinite bubbles, isn't that 5d?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

aren't uncountably infinite 4d universes 5d?

Being uncountably infinitly superior to 4d structures, i believe.

as far as I know, 3d universes along with time are only 4d because they gain/have uncountably infinite instances/snapshots of themselves. and thus requiring uncountably infinitly greater power to destory than a 3a one.

again i could be wrong, but from what I have seen, that's mostly the case.

Spoiler

There is enough material to prove Silver Sea is hyperversal. So 5D is low ball if you ask me for now just upgrading bubble to 2A

 

[Arthex]

Spoiler

There is enough material to prove Silver Sea is hyperversal. So 5D is low ball if you ask me for now just upgrading bubble to 2A

5d is more good if you ask be, in 1b anos would be a 103 dimensional guy, a bit too specfic if you ask me. it would be either that he stomps beings that are lower dimensional or gets stomped by beings that are higher dimensional. he would get no matches at all.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

5d is more good if you ask be, in 1b anos would be a 103 dimensional guy, a bit too specfic if you ask me. it would be either that he stomps beings that are lower dimensional or gets stomped by beings that are higher dimensional. he would get no matches at all.

Spoiler

But it is what it is. Author intends make layers as dimensional difference. So we can't do anything. Also LN Clearly states worlds exist in Hierarchy.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Btw if anyone has any questions please ask them in Maou Gakuin thread. It would be derailing talking here.

 

[Orioreeem]

if bubbles are 2a themselves and there are infinite bubbles, isn't that 5d?

That sounds like infinity*infinity.

 

[Satanichia_Chlammy_Mafahl]

Agree with the upgrade.

 

[Arthex]

That sounds like infinity*infinity

shift to maou gakiun discussion thread i guess.

 

[CosmicWreck]

You can't reach Low1C by simple addition and multiplication of 2A worlds as it would just become a higher degree of 2A.

The only way, I imagine, an author can reach Low 1C by simply stacking 2A worlds is like, if there are infinite^infinite amount of worlds since as far as I know that's about the size of aleph null. Theres no evidence of that here.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

idk if alephnull^2 is considered aleph 1 but very likely not
continuum hypothesis says (2^aleph null) is equal to aleph 1 which is the next bigger infinity than aleph null
which is what difference you need between 2 things to make one higher dimensional

 

[Fixxed]

idk if alephnull^2 is considered aleph 1 but very likely not
continuum hypothesis says (any number^aleph null) is equal to aleph 1 which is the next bigger infinity than aleph null
which is what difference you need between 2 things to make one higher dimensional

Aleph 1 is power set of aleph null, or aleph null^aleph null=aleph 1, as far as i know. Every set of aleph 1 is greater than aleph 0

Assuming the axiom of choice, there is a smallest cardinal number N1 greater than N0, and the continuum hypothesis is in turn equivalent to the equality 2^N0=N1

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Aleph 1 is power set of aleph null, or aleph null^aleph null=aleph 1, as far as i know. Every set of aleph 1 is greater than aleph 0

yeah but axiom of choice says just like you quoted it doesn't have to be aleph null^aleph null. 2^N0 =N1 (N0=alephnull, N1 = Aleph 1)
so infinite^infinite doesn't really make it low 1-C in this case. just higher level of 2-A and more range

anyway enough derail lets just wait for mod inputs

 

[Fixxed]

Every set of aleph 1 is greater than aleph 0

Spoiler

make bubble is infinitely greater in all part of the universes(santuary) because universes is only a small unit in infinite bubble.

Low 1C bubble

 

[Fixxed]

yeah but axiom of choice says just like you quoted it doesn't have to be aleph null^aleph null. any number^N0 =N1 (N0=alephnull, N1 = Aleph 1)
so infinite^infinite doesn't really make it low 1-C in this case. just higher level of 2-A and more range

anyway enough derail lets just wait for mod inputs

You know i dont get any explanation as far as i read about any number^N0 is N1

What i quoted is mean, every set of aleph 1 is greater than aleph 0, every set of aleph 1 can mapped one to one into aleph 0 because aleph 1 is powerset of aleph 0. Like the integers and real number

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

By this 2A bubble Anos lifting strength and striking strength should be changed to Multiversal+.

Eques put whole bubble world wieght on Anos. Anos holded it in pinkey finger.

Also Anos destroyed the deeper layers shogi piece. Which was deeper layers bubble itself.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

You know i dont get any explanation as far as i read about any number^N0 is N1

it's only like that if we include the continuum hypothesis. IDK if we take it like that here.
also, my bad IDK why it said any number. but it should be 2^N0 from the beginning or any number higher than 2

 

[Sniper670]

The heck is this language they're speaking

 

[Arthex]

The heck is this language they're speaking

The language of maths that is beyond a mortal's mind. legends say that without this chaotic language, tier 1 wouldn't exist.

 

[Aether2734]

The heck is this language they're speaking

 

[Antvasima]

@CrimsonStarFallen @Dereck03 @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest @QuasiYuri @Eficiente

Would any of you be willing to help out here please?

 

[Calista]

following the thread

 

[Jibz]

Had time to look over the thread. Looks fine to me, ill agree. Curious to see what Staff’ll think.

 

[Dereck03]

@CrimsonStarFallen @Dereck03 @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest @QuasiYuri @Eficiente

Would any of you be willing to help out here please?

Neutral leaning towards agree, i'll try to elaborate later.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Medaka619]

I agree with this

 

[Orioreeem]

Bump

 

[Dereck03]

Hmm, I'm a little unsure, of course, this upgrade has the same basis as this thread in which i completely agree, so unless i'm missing something or there's some wank misinterpretation, translation error or contextual error by the OP it would clearly affect my vote in this.... But for now i completely agree with this thread. Tho, I would be more than grateful to hear the staff opinion.

 

[Osakuronime]

Agree

 

[Fixxed]

Bump

 

[AlucardHermes]

Agree with the upgrade

 

[Arthex]

call null when

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

null will give his input tomorrow he says

 

[Antvasima]

@Armorchompy @UchihaSlayer96 @Maverick_Zero_X @LordTracer

Would any of you be willing to help evaluate this please?

 

[Tatsumi504]

I agree with this, though I'd like to hear null's opinion first

 

[Marciano15]

Netral, but more agree

 

[imZer0Null]

After adding the azure sky the black sky is stated to have no end.

I agree that the black sky has infinite size.

So the azure sky in the black sky is infinite in size too.

You have provided no evidence that the azure sky also has infinite size as far as know, if that is what you meant, so this point is simply incorrect for the time being. I don't think this point is that crucial for the upgrade you are proposing tho.

And in bubble there are countless sanctuaries of god.

I agree, but more specifically, there are countless divine domains ("sanctuaries" by your translation) in the azure sky.

「ふむ。まあ、外といっても様々だ。お前たちが生まれたのは、樹理廻庭園ダ・ク・カダーテの一つ、枯焉砂漠。樹理廻庭園には更に三つの神域があり、その外には数多無数の神域がある。そこは神々の蒼穹と呼ばれる、神族たちの国。神界の門をくぐれば、俺が生まれた魔族の国や、人間の国がある」

"Hmm. Well, it varies outside. You were born in the Withering Desert, one of Fundamental Laws Cyclic Gardens Da Ku Kadate. There are three more divine domains in the Fundamental Laws Cyclic Garden, and many countless divine domains outside of it. It is called the azure sky of the gods, the land of the god tribe. If you pass through the gates of the divine realm, you will find the land of the demon tribe in which I was born and the land of human beings."
- WN Chapter 438

Sanctuaries is have universal size and have they own time and space, even they stated to be a different dimension. Like 4 example i would give:

Okay. Here are the criteria for whether or not a world would qualify as a universe (space-time continuum) from this wiki's Universe page:

It is common for fictional characters to be scaled based on creating one or multiple "Worlds", "Dimensions", or "Realms". However, many users may often be confused on whether those are synonyms of universes or simply pocket realities. They may have indications of being quite large, but they still require some more in depth or specific evidence to truly be universes. Otherwise, they will simply be pocket realities judged by their known size.
(I have numbered the criteria to make this easier.)

1. These are notes that the worlds are indeed universes; while they don't need all of these, at least one of them should indicate this.
1.1 If they are outright called universes or stated to be the size of universes by a reliable source, they should be considered universes.
1.2 If the size of the realms described has having infinite sizes or other synonyms, that should strongly indicate them being universes.
1.3 If they are outright stated to be completely separated by the barriers of time and space and either stated or shown to be reasonable in size, such as having countless galaxies, then they should indeed be universes.
1.4 If they're flat out stated to be entire timelines, then they are indeed alternate universes.
1.5 Being labelled as "Entire Alternate Realities" generally indicates them being called universes, but the context and semantics should preferably be specified.
1.6 If they're stated to mirror "The Universe" or "Our Universe" or "The Real World", they would refer to being universes.

2. These statements are not enough to call them universes; they may support the ideas when backed up by examples above, but none of them individually or altogether may be enough.
2.1 Having a starry sky may qualify as being a Multi-Solar System sized pocket reality, but not enough to be a universe without more evidence.
2.2 Having multiple galaxies within it should qualify as a Multi-Galaxy sized pocket reality, but not enough to be a universe without more context or evidence.
2.3 A realm having time that works somewhat differently is not enough to be considered a Universe as nonlinear time within a single universe exists. And the realm should still have a confirmed appropriate size to back it up.
2.4 The Worlds being different bodies of space is not enough to consider them universes, as that does not quite prove they have different timelines. Especially if they are afterlives. Afterlives often are different bodies of space, but are generally condensed in the same timeline unless there's more proof otherwise.
2.5 Being "Different Worlds, Realms, or Dimensions" requires more elaborate context and even "Dreams, Imaginations and Ideas becoming reality" is not enough to say the "Worlds" are entire universes. "Becoming Reality" often simply refers more to "Becoming a piece of reality" as opposed to each and every Dream becoming an "Entire Reality".
2.6 Saying that it "Mirrors your world" does not automatically equate to mirroring the entire universe you came from as World can also mean planet. And it can even refer to locations in between planet and Universe. And even if the realms are larger than planet sized, the "Your World" aspect often refers to specific sceneries rather than the entire Space-Time Continuum. And just because world frequently refers to universe doesn't mean everything larger than a planet that is called a world is a universe.

Future World Crystal
This sanctuary have it own time dimension because it have own timeline of future. This sanctuary is another form/shape of world and it size is equal to the size of world. To destroy it you must destroy all possibilities of future. When anos destroy it with egil grone, the mortal world (real world) is not get the effect it is mean future world crystal is different world from the mortal world. Even the god of time cannot manipulate time in this world, it mean the time is different from time in mortal world.

Spoiler: Chapter: 255

「＜未来世水晶＞カンダクイゾルテは、この世界の数多の未来、それは世界の形に等しいでしょう。あなたの行いは、世界と自分とどちらが先に滅ぶか比べようというもの。結論は火を見るよりも明らかでしょう」
"<Future Crystal> Kandakuisorte is the numerous futures of this world, which will be equal to the shape of the world. Your deed is to compare which will perish first, the world or yourself. The conclusion will be clearer than fire."
...
「ナフタは宣誓します。現在がここにある限り、未来は滅びようとも何度でも蘇る。＜未来世水晶＞を滅ぼすには、あらゆる可能性を滅ぼすしかありません」
水晶の破片がみるみる数を増して、まるで輝く砂嵐のように、この場を包み込んでいく。
「其はあり得たかもしれぬ、もう一つの世界の形。咎人よ、汝を、限局世界の刑に処す」
水晶の砂嵐が過ぎ去れば、途端に風景が変わった。
そこは見知らぬ街である。すべての建物、すべての植物、すべての人々が、水晶で作られている。
遠くに見える山や、彼方の天蓋、流れる河川までもが水晶だった。
その一つ一つから、途方もない魔力を感じる。
「ふむ。カンダクイゾルテで作られた世界か」
「ナフタは宣誓します。この世界は、すべてがあなたにとって最悪の結果になるように限局します。あなたの勝利はこの世界では選ばれません」
"Nafta takes an oath. As long as the present is here, the future will rise again and again, even if it is destroyed. The only way to destroy the <Future Crystal> is to destroy all possibilities."
　The shards of the crystal are growing in number and enveloping the place like a shining sandstorm.
"It is another form of the world that could have been. I sentence thee, O man of iniquity, to the punishment of a limited world."
　As soon as the crystal sandstorm passed, the landscape changed.
　It was a strange city. Every building, every plant, every person was made of crystal.
　Even the mountains in the distance, the canopy in the distance, and the flowing rivers were made of crystal.
　I could feel tremendous magical power from each and every one of them.
"Hm. A world made of kandaquisorte."
"Nafta swears. Nafta swears to you that this world will be limited so that everything will turn out for the worst for you. Your victory will not be chosen in this world."
...
「ゆえに、その目を開き、くれぐれもうまく限局するのだな。この魔法を放ったが最後、最悪でもカンダクイゾルテの世界は滅ぶ」
言葉もなく、呆然とこちらへ顔を向ける未来神へ、俺は言った。
「限局できねば、現実の世界ごと滅び去る」
黒き粒子が砲塔を中心に七重の螺旋を描く。
水晶の地面に底の見えぬ亀裂が入る。
亀裂の先もまた見えず、それは限局世界を文字通り、二つに割っていた。
"Therefore, open your eyes and be careful to limit it well. If you unleash this magic, at the very worst, the world of Kandakuisorte will be destroyed."
　I said to the god of the future, who turned his face toward me, speechless and dumbfounded.
"If you can't limit it, the whole real world will be destroyed."
　Black particles spiraled seven times around the turret.
　A bottomless crack appears in the crystal ground.
　The end of the crack was also invisible, and it literally split the localized world in two.

Spoiler: Chapter: 294

「時間だ。奴ら二人の時間が恐ろしいほどの速度で流れている。だからこそ、奴ら自身の動きは遅いが、私どもには速く映る。遅くとも速い、という矛盾が成立する」
「……まさか、未来を司るナフタの限局世界で、自分たちだけ先の未来へ辿り着けるはずが……時の番神エウゴ・ラ・ラヴィアズとて、ここでは時間の操作は不可能なはず……！？」
"It's time. The two of them are moving at a frightening speed. That's why they themselves are slow, but to us they seem fast. The paradox of slow and fast is formed."
"......It is not possible that we alone can reach the future in the limited world of Nafta, who controls the future. ...... Even Eugo La Raviaz, the god of time, cannot manipulate time here. ......!

I would again prefer more accurate translations, but I'll try to not focus on that for the time being. For anyone else reading this, a more accurate translation of the section from wn chapter 255 can be found here under the "Introduction of the world-destroying magic <Egil Grone Angdroa>:" section.

Since the term "world" almost always refers to a universe in Maou Gakuin, I'd say with the statements you provided from wn chapter 255, the Future World Crystal only kinda meets criteria 1.2, for being "equal in form to the world", which we know has infinite size, and maybe 1.4, for being the literal future (timeline) of the world. It feels a tiny bit like a stretch, but I know that the Future World Crystal is supposed to be the literal possible future timelines of the world (because if the Future World Crystal was permanently destroyed, the future of the world would also have been destroyed), but I'm not completely sure if being the future section of a timeline is enough to meet criterion 1.4.
As for the statement from wn chapter 294, I'm not sure what exactly it is implies. The way I see it, because they were inside Nafta's domain, which governs the future and which she has full control over, Eugo La Raviaz would not be able to manipulate time there. I'm simply not sure if that's enough to meet either criteria 1.4 or 2.3.
I agree that the divine domain is a different dimension that does not occupy the same physical space as the mortal world tho, and it should meet criteria 2.4 and 2.5 IMO.

Land Of Traces
This sanctuary have it own past and history, it can contain a infinite size in just one book only, there are many book in land of traces that contain every past of everything. It size is also boundless or infinite. Anos destroy it and the mortal world is not get effect, its mean land of traces is another world/different world from mortal world. Time get distorted in this world and no matter how many you rewrite time, land of traces will not change, even is useless to use time magic in this land. This mean time in land of traces are different from mortal world.

Spoiler: Chapter: 274

天蓋が頭上を覆っている。
痕跡神の夢の中で見た、あの本の荒野だ。
果てなき大地には、どこまでも遠く巨大な棚が並び、そびえ立つ。
その中心に立っていたのは、純白の本を手にし、厳かな衣装を纏った神族。
痕跡神リーバルシュネッド。
そして、傍らに跪き、祈りを捧げるのは、教皇ゴルロアナである。
俺は荒野の大地に着地すると、まっすぐ視線を二人に向けた。
A canopy covers overhead.
　It is that wilderness of books that I saw in the dream of the god of traces.
　Huge shelves lined and towered over the endless land, far and wide.
　Standing in the center of it all, holding a pure white book in his hand and dressed in a solemn costume, was the God Tribe.
　Leibalschnedd, the god of traces.
　And kneeling beside him, praying, was Pope Gorloana.
　I landed on the wilderness ground and turned my gaze straight to them.

Wilderness in it, is the same wilderness in chapter 279, is the same endless land. This because every books in the land of traces is contain every past of everything

Spoiler: Chapter: 279

遠い昔――
それは地底に起きた始まりの審判。
勝ち抜いた選定の神とそれに選ばれた者の結末だった。
果てしない荒野に佇むのは少女の姿をした創造神と、彼女が選んだ選定者。
たった今、熾烈を極めた聖戦は終わった。
立っているのは神と人、二人だけである。
天が鳴くが如く、けたたましい音が頭上から轟く。
耳を劈く轟音とともに、天蓋が堕ちてきていた。
　A long time ago--
　It was the beginning judgment that took place in the depths of the earth.
　It was the end of the victorious god of selection and his chosen one.
　Standing in the endless wilderness is the creator god in the form of a young girl and her chosen one.
　The fierce holy war has just ended.
　Standing there are only two people, God and man.
　A rumbling sound, as if the heavens were crying, roars from overhead.
　With an ear-splitting roar, the canopy was falling.

Spoiler: Chapter: 275

「時を歪めたか」
魔眼めを凝らし、その深淵を見つめながら、言う。
「然り。痕跡の大地では、未来には辿り着かぬ。我が信徒、ゴルロアナの命は過去に刻まれたまま、決して滅ぶことはない」
「ふむ。つまり、お前を先に片付ければいいわけだろう」
「然り。されど、我もまた不滅なり。この身は、痕跡の秩序。万物の過去なのだ。時を何度塗り替えようと、そこにあったという事実は変わらぬ」
すでに過ぎ去った存在、記録と記憶が痕跡神の秩序。
奴を滅ぼすには、過去を改変するのが望ましいだろうが、その秩序を司る神を相手に時間魔法で挑んでも勝ち目はあるまい。
奴は確かにここにいた。
その事実は、なにがどうあろうと変わりはしない。
"Have you distorted time?"
　He says, staring into the depths of the abyss with his evil eye.
"Yes, he said. In the land of traces, the future cannot be reached. The life of my follower, Gorloana, is etched in the past and will never perish."
"Hm. So, I guess I'll just have to get rid of you first."
"Yes. But I, too, am immortal. This body is the order of traces. I am the past of all things. No matter how many times I rewrite time, the fact remains that it was there."
　The existence that has already passed away, records and memories are the order of the god of traces.
　To destroy him, it would be desirable to alter the past, but there is no way to win by using time magic against the god who control order.
　He was certainly here.
　That fact will never change, no matter what.
...
ここは時の秩序の狂った世界。
ならば、多少の本気を出しても問題あるまい。
This is a world where the time has gone mad.
　Then, there is no problem to be a little serious.
...
「この大地よりも大きな足形をつけてやればいい。元の痕跡は踏みつぶされて消え、新たにつけられた足跡は、この大地に収まりきらぬ。つまり、痕跡の秩序が乱れるというわけだ」
「不可能なり。ここは世界のすべてがあまさず収まる痕跡の大地。時の始まりより、今日にいたるまでの痕跡は七億年。それを百度繰り返すだけの器が、すわなち、この大地の広さなり。それよりも大きな痕跡など、この天地に存在せぬ」
"Let them make footprints bigger than the earth. The original footprints will be crushed, and the new footprints will not fit in the earth. In other words, the order of the traces would be disturbed."
"Impossible. This is the land of traces where everything in the world fits together. From the beginning of time to the present day, there have been traces for 700 million years. The size of this land is a vessel that can repeat this process a hundred times. There is no trace greater than that in the whole of the earth."
...
「……痕跡の大地が……神が作りし、無辺なる世界が……踏みつぶされ……た…………」
呆然と呟くゴルロアナに、俺は言った。
「七〇〇億年の痕跡を刻む神の大地も、俺の七歩には耐えられなかったようだな」
"...... the land of traces ...... God made, the boundless world ...... was crushed ...... was ............."
　I said to Gorloana, who muttered in dismay.
"The Land of God, which has carved seven billion years of traces, could not withstand my seven steps, it seems."

Again, for anyone else reading this, a more accurate translation of the section from wn chapter 275 can be found here under the "Introduction of the world-destroying magic <Gilieriam Naviem>:" section.

With the statements you provided from wn chapter 274 & 275, I'd say the Land of Traces definitely meets at least criterion 1.2. It also possibly meets criterion 1.4, but I'm not entirely sure about that. Regardless of that, I'd argue that the Land of Traces is (unquantifiably below baseline) Low 2-C in sheer size, because it is the literal past (timeline) of the world. It is very specifically stated that the Land of Traces currently contains 700 million years traces, and that it is large enough to contain such traces a hundred times more (700,000,000*100=70,000,000,000), i.e. it can contain a 70 billion years section of the Militia World timeline.

"Impossible. This is the land of traces, where everything in the world is contained. The traces from the beginning of time to the present day are 700 million years old. The size of this land is enough to repeat that a hundred times. There is no trace of anything larger than that in this world."
[...]
"The land of traces...the boundless world that God created...was crushed...
I said to the stunned Gorloana.
"It seems that the land of God, which carves the traces of 70 billion years, could not withstand my seven steps."

As for the statements regarding time, such as "This is a world where the order of time has gone mad", I'm not sure what exactly it implies, and I'm simply not sure if it's enough to meet either criteria 1.4 or 2.3.
I agree that the divine domain is a different dimension that does not occupy the same physical space as the mortal world tho, and it should meet criteria 2.4 and 2.5 IMO.

Memiya Shinto
This santuary is another world with different dimension, this world is also contain sun in it

Spoiler: Chapter: 399

「太陽」
ミーシャが頭上を見上げ、手で光を遮りながら言った。
「……なにあれ……？」
「すごいぞ」
サーシャとエレオノールが声を上げ、天を見つめる。
そこは、広大な海だ。
波打つ水面が、空のように広がっており、その奥には確かに太陽らしき影が見える。
「空が海とは、また変わった場所だな」
「……あの神界の門が、この異界につながってたってことよね……？」
サーシャが、確認するように言葉をこぼす。
『ようこそ、ゼシア、エレオノール。それから、魔王アノス』
エンネスオーネがこちらを振り向き、歓迎するように言った。
少女の頭の小さな翼がファサッと動く。
『ここは、芽宮神都がきゅうしんとフォースロナルリーフ』
幼い声で、彼女は告げる。
『神々の蒼穹へ続く神域の一つなの』
「ふむ。神界の門と神々の蒼穹には、狭間があると聞いているが、この都がそうか？」
『うん。この神都の深層にもう一つの神界の門があるの。そこが神々の蒼穹につながってるよ？』
芽宮神都フォースロナルリーフといったか。
神界の門をくぐったすぐ先にあるのなら、知っていそうなものだが、聞き覚えはない。
"The sun."
　Misha looked up overhead, blocking the light with his hand and said.
"...... what is that ......?"
"It's amazing!"
Sasha and Eleonor raised their voices and stared at the heavens.
　It is a vast ocean.
　The rippling surface of the water is as wide as the sky, and behind it, there is indeed a shadow that looks like the sun.
"The sky is the sea, another unusual place."
"......That means that the gate of the divine world was connected to this other world, right ......?"
　Sasha spills the words as if to confirm.
"Welcome, Zessiah and Eleonor, and also the Demon King Anos. And Anos, the Demon King."
　Ennesone turned to me and said welcomingly.
　The little wings on the girl's head flapped.
"This is the place," she announces, her voice still childish, where the city of Memiya Shinto is located."
　In a young voice, she announces.
"It is one of the sanctuaries leading to the azure skies of the gods."
"Hm. I have heard that there is a chasm between the gate of the Divine Realm and the Azure Sky of the Gods, is this the case with this capital?"
"Is this the case? There is another gate of the divine world in the depths of this divine city. It is connected to the azure sky of the gods, right?"
　The city is called the Budgong divine capital Force Ronal Reef.
　If it is just beyond the gate of the divine world, I should know it, but I don't remember hearing about it.

Spoiler: Chapter: 404

「神界って、ここから更に遠いところよね？　神界の門をくぐったら、次元も違うんだし。神族ってそんなところから、地上を見られるの？」
"The Divine Realm is even further away from here, right?　Once you pass through the gate of the Divine Realm, the dimension is also different. Can the Gods see the earth from such a place?"

I don't have that much to say about this example. I guess it kinda meets criterion 2.1, but also not really.
I agree that the divine domain is a different dimension that does not occupy the same physical space as the mortal world tho, and it should meet criteria 2.4 and 2.5 IMO.
However, the statement from wn chapter 404 actually refers to the azure sky of the gods (divine realm 神界, different from the divine domains 神域), and not the divine domain presented in wn chapter 399.

「神界って、ここから更に遠いところよね？　神界の門をくぐったら、次元も違うんだし。神族ってそんなところから、地上を見られるの？」

The divine realm is even further away from here, right? If you pass through the Gates of the Divine Realm, the dimension is also different. Can the Gods see the earth from such a place?

IMO this means that while the azure sky is located in the black sky, it is still a different dimension that does not occupy the same physical space as the black sky.

Devil Garden
Is the sanctuary of the god of creation. This sanctuary can contain hundreds and thousands of worlds. The size of this world is endlessly

Spoiler: Chapter: 476

　瞬間、俺とエクエスを取り巻く世界が変わった。
　天はどこまでも高く、空には＜創造の月＞アーティエルトノアと＜破滅の太陽＞サージエルドナーヴェが寄り添うように浮かんでいる。
　地はどこまでも広がり、白銀の氷が、森や草原、山や街を構築していた。
　俺とエクエス以外には、誰もいない。
　ここは、創造神ミリティアが創り出した彼女の神域――
「三面世界＜魔王庭園＞」
　At that moment, the world around me and Eques changed.
　The heavens were high in the sky, with the Moon of Creation <Artier Tonoa>, and the Sun of Destruction <Serge Eldonave>, floating close together.
　The earth spread out endlessly, with silvery white ice building forests, meadows, mountains, and cities.
　There was no one here but me and Eques.
　This is her sanctuary, created by the creator goddess Militia.
"Three-sided world <Demon King's Garden>"
...
　その＜魔王庭園＞では、＜破滅の太陽＞が滅びを滅ぼす光を放つ。
　致命的な威力の攻撃が神域に与えられれば、その瞬間、サージエルドナーヴェの力にて相殺しているのだ。
　たとえ神域が深い損傷を負おうとも、たちまち＜創造の月＞が世界を創り直す。
　なによりこの世界は、三重に重なっている。
　サージエルドナーヴェの相殺とアーティエルトノアの再生を超えた力にて一つ目の世界が滅びようと、重なっていた二つ目の世界が姿を現すのみだ。
　そして、その瞬間に滅びた一つ目の世界は創り直される。
　俺の滅びが止められぬのなら、止めずに新しく創世すればよい、といったところか。
　何百何千もの世界を滅ぼす力を解き放とうと、延々と世界は創造され続ける。
　In that <Demon King's Garden>, the <Sun of Doom> emits a light that destroys destruction.
　Whenever a fatal attack is made on a sacred space, it is canceled at that moment by the power of the surge eldonave.
　Even if the sanctuary is deeply damaged, the Moon of Creation will immediately recreate the world.
　Above all, this world is triple layered.
　Even if the first world is destroyed by the offsetting power of Sergei Donave and the power beyond regeneration of Artiel Donore, the second world that was overlapped will only appear.
　And at that moment, the destroyed first world will be re-created.
　If my destruction cannot be stopped, then I can create a new world without stopping.
　Worlds continue to be created endlessly, trying to unleash the power to destroy hundreds and thousands of worlds.

The world is not only 3 or 1 but hundred-thousands-endlessly of worlds. Author use word re-create for desribe the destroyed world which was recreated and create for the new world. If world in layer one is get destroyed, world in layer two or/and three will only appear, and at the moment the destroyed world will being re-created. The world is endlessly being re-create and create/appear, thats make world in devil garden is more and more get added endlessly

As far as I know, the Demon King's Garden is already accepted as being a Low 2-C/2-C structure.
With the statements you provided from wn chapter 476, I'd say the Demon King's Garden meets at least criterion 1.2. To destroy a single world of the Demon King's Garden would require more destructive power than the power normally needed to destroy the world as far as I know, due to the constant offsetting and regeneration, so destroying a single world is already (above baseline) Low 2-C AP, which also heavily implies that these worlds are indeed universes.
I believe the the translation "hundreds and thousands of worlds" is more accurate than "hundreds of thousands of worlds", but this isn't that important as far as I know since these worlds are still created one at a time.
I also believe that this divine domain is a different dimension that does not occupy the same physical space as the mortal world, and it should meet criteria 2.4 and 2.5 IMO.

Overall, I'd say out of the 4 examples you provided, only the Future World Crystal, Land of Traces, and Demon King's Garden can be somewhat reliably considered as universes (space-time continuums of some sort).
However...

Every sanctuary is just microcosm of the bubble. And microcosm is microscopic, miniature, a copy of a larger place, a small unit. So that world is very limited by bubble and treated only as subsets of it, and make bubble is infinitely greater in all part of the universes (sanctuary) because universes is only a small unit in infinite bubble. It also mean every sanctuaries have same similia structure

Spoiler: Chapter: 425

「各々の神域は、世界の縮図。世界の根源の上限が決まっているように、ダ・ク・カダーテの火露の数は決まっていて、この神域の花の数も決まっています」
"Each sanctuary is a microcosm of the world. Just as the upper limit of the root of the world is fixed, the number of fire dewdrops in da ku kadate is fixed, as is the number of flowers in this sanctuary."

「各々の神域は、世界の縮図。世界の根源の上限が決まっているように、ダ・ク・カダーテの火露の数は決まっていて、この神域の花の数も決まっています」

"Each divine domain is a microcosm of the world. Just as the upper limit of the source of the world is fixed, so is the amount of fire dew in Da Ku Kadate, and the number of flowers in this divine domain."

縮図 - shukuzu - Translations: microcosm; microcosmos; reduced drawing; miniature copy.

This statement is very interesting IMO, and seems to heavily imply that each divine domain has a similar structure, i.e. each divine domain is a space-time continuum of some sort, and that each divine domain is almost like a miniature copy of the world (which is already accepted to be a space-time continuum), i.e. a microcosm of the world.
With this in mind, I think it is somewhat safe to assume that if at least a few divine domains are considered to be universes (space-time continuums), then all divine domains should be considered universes (space-time continuums), unless a certain divine domain has some clear contradictions.

So bubble is infinite in size and could contain world/universe with different time and space. The world is also just a microcosm in the bubble. So the bubble may not have infinite number of universe in it but can contain infinite number of universe in it. It mean bubble is low 1C 2A structure because can contain infinite number of universe. i made this based on this thread:
https://vsbattles.com/threads/possible-anos-and-venuzdonoas-2-a-range-upgrade.122926/page-3

The above part is the only thing that's really bothering me...
Currently, the black sky is considered to be infinite 3-D space, because it is stated to be infinite and can contain 3-D stars. You are arguing that the black sky can contain an infinite number of universes, but for that to be true, the black sky would at least have to be infinite 4-D space as far as I know, because 3-D space cannot contain 4-D objects (space-time continuums).
You haven't provided any evidence that even slightly implies that the black sky is infinite 4-D space, or that it can contain 4-D space-time continuums in the same physical space.
You could try to argue that the black sky must be 4-D because the azure sky is a 4-D structure and is implied to be located in the black sky, but as mentioned before the azure sky is still a different dimension that does not occupy the same physical space as the black sky, as is evident by the fact that you cannot enter (or leave) the azure sky by simply flying to (or out of) it through the black sky, and that you can only enter (or leave) it through the gates of the divine realm as far as I know.
Because of this, the Silver Sea case and the divine domains case seems rather different to me.
We know that the bubbles are (and can be) contained in the same physical space as the Silver Sea, and since that physical space has infinite size, it can theoretically contain infinite bubbles.
However, there isn't really any evidence IMO that the divine domains can even be contained in the same physical space as the black sky, so you have to make some rather big assumptions, that being that the black sky is at least infinite 4-D space and that it can contain divine domains (4-D space-time continuums) in the same physical space.

Therefore, a much more reliable proposal IMO would be that worlds should be upgraded to 2-B, for containing countless divine domains (space-time continuums) in the azure sky. This proposal literally only has one small assumption, that being that if at least a few divine domains are considered to be universes (space-time continuums), then all divine domains should be considered universes (space-time continuums), unless a certain divine domain has some clear contradictions, based of the fact that all divine domains should have a similar structure.

I am neutral, leaning towards disagree for the 2-A proposal, as it requires more and bigger assumptions (and none of the presented evidence slightly supports these assumptions IMO), and overall just seems rather unreliable.

I would ofc have preferred that we wait until someone can acquire LN Volume 11 before making any type of cosmology revisions, but I can see and completely understand that people have become quite tired of waiting for the cosmology revisions (I'm also tired of waiting, but it cannot really be helped), so I guess this is fine. Let's all please just wait a bit more before we do any Silver Sea revisions then, if that's okay.
I just wanna make the cosmology revisions as good and reliable as they can be, and I don't ever want to seem like I'm gatekeeping Maou Gakuin verse revisions.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

The above part is the only thing that's really bothering me...
Currently, the black sky is considered to be infinite 3-D space, because it is stated to be infinite and can contain 3-D stars. You are arguing that the black sky can contain an infinite number of universes, but for that to be true, the black sky would at least have to be infinite 4-D space as far as I know, because 3-D space cannot contain 4-D objects (space-time continuums)

This part I believe is completely wrong. I may be wrong if I am just correct me.

As a supporter bleach there exists 3D space which atleast contains 3 universes (4D) scale. Which wiki already expected. Btw I am just giving an example.

My point is 3D space can contain 4D structure (3D space and 1D time) thats not Contradicting anything here.

 

[Tatsumi504]

I agree that the black sky has infinite size.


You have provided no evidence that the azure sky also has infinite size as far as know, if that is what you meant, so this point is simply incorrect for the time being. I don't think this point is that crucial for the upgrade you are proposing tho.


I agree, but more specifically, there are countless divine domains ("sanctuaries" by your translation) in the azure sky.




Okay. Here are the criteria for whether or not a world would qualify as a universe (space-time continuum) from this wiki's Universe page:





I would again prefer more accurate translations, but I'll try to not focus on that for the time being. For anyone else reading this, a more accurate translation of the section from wn chapter 255 can be found here under the "Introduction of the world-destroying magic <Egil Grone Angdroa>:" section.

Since the term "world" almost always refers to a universe in Maou Gakuin, I'd say with the statements you provided from wn chapter 255, the Future World Crystal only kinda meets criteria 1.2, for being "equal in form to the world", which we know has infinite size, and maybe 1.4, for being the literal future (timeline) of the world. It feels a tiny bit like a stretch, but I know that the Future World Crystal is supposed to be the literal possible future timelines of the world (because if the Future World Crystal was permanently destroyed, the future of the world would also have been destroyed), but I'm not completely sure if being the future section of a timeline is enough to meet criterion 1.4.
As for the statement from wn chapter 294, I'm not sure what exactly it is implies. The way I see it, because they were inside Nafta's domain, which governs the future and which she has full control over, Eugo La Raviaz would not be able to manipulate time there. I'm simply not sure if that's enough to meet either criteria 1.4 or 2.3.
I agree that the divine domain is a different dimension that does not occupy the same physical space as the mortal world tho, and it should meet criteria 2.4 and 2.5 IMO.



Again, for anyone else reading this, a more accurate translation of the section from wn chapter 275 can be found here under the "Introduction of the world-destroying magic <Gilieriam Naviem>:" section.

With the statements you provided from wn chapter 274 & 275, I'd say the Land of Traces definitely meets at least criterion 1.2. It also possibly meets criterion 1.4, but I'm not entirely sure about that. Regardless of that, I'd argue that the Land of Traces is (unquantifiably below baseline) Low 2-C in sheer size, because it is the literal past (timeline) of the world. It is very specifically stated that the Land of Traces currently contains 700 million years traces, and that it is large enough to contain such traces a hundred times more (700,000,000*100=70,000,000,000), i.e. it can contain a 70 billion years section of the Militia World timeline.



As for the statements regarding time, such as "This is a world where the order of time has gone mad", I'm not sure what exactly it implies, and I'm simply not sure if it's enough to meet either criteria 1.4 or 2.3.
I agree that the divine domain is a different dimension that does not occupy the same physical space as the mortal world tho, and it should meet criteria 2.4 and 2.5 IMO.



I don't have that much to say about this example. I guess it kinda meets criterion 2.1, but also not really.
I agree that the divine domain is a different dimension that does not occupy the same physical space as the mortal world tho, and it should meet criteria 2.4 and 2.5 IMO.
However, the statement from wn chapter 404 actually refers to the azure sky of the gods (divine realm 神界, different from the divine domains 神域), and not the divine domain presented in wn chapter 399.



IMO this means that while the azure sky is located in the black sky, it is still a different dimension that does not occupy the same physical space as the black sky.



As far as I know, the Demon King's Garden is already accepted as being a Low 2-C/2-C structure.
With the statements you provided from wn chapter 476, I'd say the Demon King's Garden meets at least criterion 1.2. To destroy a single world of the Demon King's Garden would require more destructive power than the power normally needed to destroy the world as far as I know, due to the constant offsetting and regeneration, so destroying a single world is already (above baseline) Low 2-C AP, which also heavily implies that these worlds are indeed universes.
I believe the the translation "hundreds and thousands of worlds" is more accurate than "hundreds of thousands of worlds", but this isn't that important as far as I know since these worlds are still created one at a time.
I also believe that this divine domain is a different dimension that does not occupy the same physical space as the mortal world, and it should meet criteria 2.4 and 2.5 IMO.

Overall, I'd say out of the 4 examples you provided, only the Future World Crystal, Land of Traces, and Demon King's Garden can be somewhat reliably considered as universes (space-time continuums of some sort).
However...





縮図 - shukuzu - Translations: microcosm; microcosmos; reduced drawing; miniature copy.

This statement is very interesting IMO, and seems to heavily imply that each divine domain has a similar structure, i.e. each divine domain is a space-time continuum of some sort, and that each divine domain is almost like a miniature copy of the world (which is already accepted to be a space-time continuum), i.e. a microcosm of the world.
With this in mind, I think it is somewhat safe to assume that if at least a few divine domains are considered to be universes (space-time continuums), then all divine domains should be considered universes (space-time continuums), unless a certain divine domain has some clear contradictions.


The above part is the only thing that's really bothering me...
Currently, the black sky is considered to be infinite 3-D space, because it is stated to be infinite and can contain 3-D stars. You are arguing that the black sky can contain an infinite number of universes, but for that to be true, the black sky would at least have to be infinite 4-D space as far as I know, because 3-D space cannot contain 4-D objects (space-time continuums).
You haven't provided any evidence that even slightly implies that the black sky is infinite 4-D space, or that it can contain 4-D space-time continuums in the same physical space.
You could try to argue that the black sky must be 4-D because the azure sky is a 4-D structure and is implied to be located in the black sky, but as mentioned before the azure sky is still a different dimension that does not occupy the same physical space as the black sky, as is evident by the fact that you cannot enter (or leave) the azure sky by simply flying to (or out of) it through the black sky, and that you can only enter (or leave) it through the gates of the divine realm as far as I know.
Because of this, the Silver Sea case and the divine domains case seems rather different to me.
We know that the bubbles are (and can be) contained in the same physical space as the Silver Sea, and since that physical space has infinite size, it can theoretically contain infinite bubbles.
However, there isn't really any evidence IMO that the divine domains can even be contained in the same physical space as the black sky, so you have to make some rather big assumptions, that being that the black sky is at least infinite 4-D space and that it can contain divine domains (4-D space-time continuums) in the same physical space.

Therefore, a much more reliable proposal IMO would be that worlds should be upgraded to 2-B, for containing countless divine domains (space-time continuums) in the azure sky. This proposal literally only has one small assumption, that being that if at least a few divine domains are considered to be universes (space-time continuums), then all divine domains should be considered universes (space-time continuums), unless a certain divine domain has some clear contradictions, based of the fact that all divine domains should have a similar structure.

I am neutral, leaning towards disagree for the 2-A proposal, as it requires more and bigger assumptions (and none of the presented evidence slightly supports these assumptions IMO), and overall just seems rather unreliable.

I would ofc have preferred that we wait until someone can acquire LN Volume 11 before making any type of cosmology revisions, but I can see and completely understand that people have become quite tired of waiting for the cosmology revisions (I'm also tired of waiting, but it cannot really be helped), so I guess this is fine. Let's all please just wait a bit more before we do any Silver Sea revisions then, if that's okay.
I just wanna make the cosmology revisions as good and reliable as they can be, and I don't ever want to seem like I'm gatekeeping Maou Gakuin verse revisions.

Why is the black sky considered to be only an infinite 3-D space, in my opinion it should be irrelevant as the bubble contains the black sky as well as the azure sky, regardless of whether the black sky is considered as infinite 3-D space fact remains there's still a separate physical space in a bubble capable of holding infinite separate space time continuums (assuming i'm not confusing the stated size of the azure and black sky).

All in all I agree on leaving all revisions to maou gakuin for now till we get more info but I'm pretty sure were all tired of waiting.

 

[Tatsumi504]

A

This part I believe is completely wrong. I may be wrong if I am just correct me.

As a supporter bleach there exists 3D space which atleast contains 3 universes (4D) scale. Which wiki already expected. Btw I am just giving an example.

My point is 3D space can contain 4D structure (3D space and 1D time) thats not Contradicting anything here.

Are you sure about this? I find it natural to think its impossible, either this or its a contradiction to bleach.