(undertale) the anomaly/player revisions

[SpydeyBaboon]

True pacifist flowey knows we are not chara he acknowledges that as Asriel so no he is not talking about chara in this

But he still uses Chara's name, which is odd to use for someone he just met and didn't interact prior.

That's just sans mentioning the save ability

The second one possibly (despite having its only trigger as reloading/reseting after the first pacifist judgement), but the first one, as his dialogue remains unchanged, still mentions the ending of a pacifist route and how he wished to be friends with the anomaly in the past.

 

[QuasiYuri]

If chara could have done it without Frisk's soul then he would have been present in pacifist and neutral route too

Their second dialogue do imply they are present in every routes.

 

[Rez]

Their second dialogue do imply they are present in every routes.

This is chara's dialogue in the genocide ending
Greetings.
I am <Name>.
Thank you.
Your power awakened me from death.
My "human soul"...
My "determination"...
They were not mine, but YOURS.
At first, I was so confused.
Our plan had failed, hadn't it?
Why was I brought back to life?
...
You.
With your guidance.
I realized the purpose of my reincarnation.
Power.
Together, we eradicated the enemy and became strong.
HP. ATK. DEF. GOLD. EXP. LV.
Every time a number increases, that feeling...
That's me.
"<Name>."
Now.
Now we have reached the absolute.
There is nothing left for us here.
Let us erase this pointless world, and move on to the next.
This means chara is only present in genocide and maybe in neutral route as those are the only route where these stats goes up

 

[Rez]

But he still uses Chara's name, which is odd to use for someone he just met and didn't interact prior.

No he doesn't he only says you in the pacifist ending

 

[SpydeyBaboon]

No he doesn't he only says you in the pacifist ending

He ends it with "See you later... Chara", with a smile on his face when he says it.

This means chara is only present in genocide and maybe in neutral route as those are the only route where these stats goes up

I'm pretty sure they were talking about the "Second" dialogue, as in, "The demon that comes when people call its name".

 

[Rez]

He ends it with "See you later... Chara", with a smile on his face when he says it.

I'm pretty sure they were talking about the "Second" dialogue, as in, "The demon that comes when people call its name".

Yeah you are right about the chara part and the Demon dialogue doesn't really suggest chara being present in pacifist at least not to me

 

[SpydeyBaboon]

the Demon dialogue doesn't really suggest chara being present in pacifist at least not to me

I suppose the thought process behind this one would be, either:

• The Player gets to name them when the game starts/in other runs so that would mean they would be still around;
• As Flowey confesses to calling them, Chara later associates that event with their return.

That is, if Chara is to be trusted. Their OG dialogue could be read as to imply something similar:

Thank you. Your power awakened me from death. My "human soul"... My "determination"... They were not mine, but YOURS.

As they immediately associate "the power that awoke them" to the "human soul" and its "determination".

 

[QuasiYuri]

This means chara is only present in genocide and maybe in neutral route as those are the only route where these stats goes up

It means more that Chara became stronger only in those. You still have these stats naturally, after all.

Also the "at first" part would mean Chara was resurrected before you decide to kill anything.

Also there's the Chara is the narrator theory which makes a lotta sense.

 

[Antvasima]

So what is left to do here??

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I suppose the thought process behind this one would be, either:

• The Player gets to name them when the game starts/in other runs so that would mean they would be still around;
• As Flowey confesses to calling them, Chara later associates that event with their return.

That is, if Chara is to be trusted. Their OG dialogue could be read as to imply something similar:

As they immediately associate "the power that awoke them" to the "human soul" and its "determination".

TL;DR: Chara never actually resets, and isn't a megalomaniac before a genocide run. Frisk doesn't want to reset. So, who is resetting in a pure pacifict run?


Well, for one, I still feel Deltarune certainly tips the scales towards the player for the simple reason that it gives a more in-depth explanation and I don't think it's controversial to say that the DT player is the UT player (every time you can outright reference UT as an entity possessing Kris; toby saying you should play UT before you player DR, etc.).

Chara isn't the one resetting, ever. Even if they have the power to do it, they aren't the ones who want to go back on whatever ending you get and reset, that choice is always left up to you, and never just automatically happens, unlike the times Chara walks or attacks without your input. But if the "your" making the choice isn't Frisk - who wants to live their life, and it isn't Chara - who finds completionism perverse and only came to appreciate megalomania after the Genocide Run, then there has to be a third party here.


Plus, the Chara presents their dialogue can be taken to mean that they are talking to the player, and not Frisk. Besides the more obvious one where they claim to be the demon who comes when you call their name, with their revival starting when the player names them and fall into the underground, there is also their use of quotations to refer to things that were not their own but the player's.

My "human soul"...
My "determination"...

After that, quotations are used again, this time for their name.

I am <Name>.
"<Name>."

Certainly, not the most hard hitting proof, but I think it's worth pointing out.


There is a level of ambiguity, but I think it's fair to say that claiming the player is the one normally controlling Frisk is at least as fair an interpretation as saying Chara is the one always controlling them.

 

[SpydeyBaboon]

Well, for one, I still feel Deltarune certainly tips the scales towards the player for the simple reason that it gives a more in-depth explanation and I don't think it's controversial to say that the DT player is the UT player (every time you can outright reference UT as an entity possessing Kris; toby saying you should play UT before you player DR, etc.).

Would you mind if I talked to you about the DR player/Red SOUL somewhere else (be it in your profile or another thread)? I noticed they don't have a page or a mention anywhere in the wiki yet, and I don't want to derail the thread more than I already did. We still have to talk about the "Low-2C Player" classification and stuff.

There is a level of ambiguity, but I think it's fair to say that claiming the player is the one normally controlling Frisk is at least as fair an interpretation as saying Chara is the one always controlling them.

Fair enough. As it currently stands, it's still pretty ambiguous and all and the player is directly addressed by the game, granted the times it happens are somewhat off, like "Name the fallen human" or the end of "Hard Mode".

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I more so meant that the writer of the first game made another game that directly ties into the first with references and all, where the player is a character. While it is not hard or decisive proof, it at least means that the author considered that possibility for the first game as well.

 

[SpydeyBaboon]

another game [...] where the player is a character

It's about this that I want to talk to you a little more about, but again, thread and stuff.

 

[SpydeyBaboon]

also the tobydog has "at least low 2-C" via having created undertale and also seeing the entire undertale world and all of the characters as merely fiction, and obviously the one who's playing through undertale's world as a mere video game sees undertale's world and characters as fiction

The thing here is that the dog is both mentioned in the game as creating it:



And is implied to be currently patching up the fabric of UT's reality:


I'm not sure where the "sees everyone as fiction" comes from, but I'm pretty sure it was just added to drive home the point.

The player could possibly be argued to Low-2C if you think that Chara managed to destroy the world by hijacking its power, but not because they can just uninstall the game.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

(I’m typing this after reading the OP) I’m questioning why there’s a profile for “The Anomaly” anyway? I don’t even know why their referred to as “The Player” I just don’t see a reason for the profile to be kept (that’s what I think at least) I’ll catch up on this thread in a second, but that’s what I wanted to say.

 

[Justkillme42069]

I just don’t see a reason for the profile to be kept

I agree tbh, it's pretty useless at the moment even disregarding the questionability of the player actually being a canon entity in undertale

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I'm not sure what you think makes profiles useful, but if the player is an actual thing then that makes Chara's immortality and abilities more impressive, and changes how fights involving Frisk go.

Here for the DT key though: https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-anomaly-deltarune-key-time-manipulation-for-kris.119692/

 

[Justkillme42069]

I'm not sure what you think makes profiles useful

I suppose I think that almost all stats unknown + very few powers and abilities + general lack of actual information about the character makes for a profile that's hard or just boring to use in vs debates and is therefore less "useful"? idrk honestly, "useless" is just the first word I thought of

 

[Antvasima]

So what is left to do here??

 

[Justkillme42069]

So what is left to do here??

all come to a conclusion about adding reality warping and upgrading to low 2-C

The player could possibly be argued to Low-2C if you think that Chara managed to destroy the world by hijacking its power, but not because they can just uninstall the game

the argument for the first part would be chara needing the player's soul to be powerful enough to recreate the game, but I'm not really sure what I think about whether that's the case or not

other than just uninstalling the game, the player can also simply delete every file in the game, which seems to be treated as canon since the annoying dog's profile mentions it not being able to be removed from the game's files as a feat
the annoying dog's profile also mentions that it will still exist even when "reality no longer exists", after a file is corrupted, which means a file being corrupted is treated as a canon occurrence and that reality also no longer exists when a file is corrupted, and the player screwing something up when trying to mess with the game files is also usually the cause of a file being corrupted from what I know, so the player can cause undertale's reality to no longer exist, which would be low 2-C

 

[Rez]

Also another proof for save editing being canon if you edit your name from your save file the game will actually acknowledge that so editing saves in game is canon

 

[Justkillme42069]

Also another proof for save editing being canon if you edit your name from your save file the game will actually acknowledge that so editing saves in game is canon

https://i.redd.it/f9id61wstv741.jpg

 

[RethPo]

I dont really agree with the ops reasoning for the player being low 2-C with things like editing and uninstalling the game. But the player is where chara managed to get their power from in the first place. The player should scale to that (and can perform true reset which im pretty sure is low 2-C)

 

[Rez]

I dont really agree with the ops reasoning for the player being low 2-C with things like editing and uninstalling the game. But the player is where chara managed to get their power from in the first place. The player should scale to that (and can perform true reset which im pretty sure is low 2-C)

Pretty sure True reset is treated more so as hax rather ap

 

[Justkillme42069]

bump

 

[Justkillme42069]

also the player's deltarune key should get dimensional travel since they can travel between the three save files, which are probably timelines

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here so far, and what do we still need to do?

 

[Justkillme42069]

What are the conclusions here so far, and what do we still need to do?

everyone still participating in this thread needs to agree on whether to add reality warping and low 2-C or not
I can't think of any possible arguments for the player's deltarune key not having dimensional travel, that one's probably safe

 

[Antvasima]

@Eficiente @QuasiYuri @Ricsi-viragosi @DemonGodMitchAubin @Andytrenom

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[Eficiente]

Can all the would-be evidence be listed?

 

[Antvasima]

I would appreciate if somebody can help Eficiente with his request.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Can all the would-be evidence be listed?

As I understand, Low 2-C would be based on the player being able to perform true resets.

Dimensional travel (for deltarune) is based on being able to interact and move from one save file to another in a set of three.


I think I can agree with the latter, but I'm a bit iffy on the former.

 

[Justkillme42069]

Can all the would-be evidence be listed?

number one
from the tobydog profile

Speed: Omnipresent (Exists in all places. Even when a file has been corrupted and reality no longer exists, the Annoying Dog will still be there, either sleeping or walking around in an empty void, entirely intact.)

this means that a file being corrupted is considered a canon event, and furthermore that reality no longer exists when it happens
a file being corrupted can be, and from what I gather usually is, the result of the player screwing something up

Durability: At least Universe level+ (Completely immune to all adverse effects on reality, and will even continue existing if nothing else does. Cannot be removed from the game's files/existence)

this means that stuff being removed from the game files is canon, and the player can do that
argument against this: the annoying dog profile is garbage (i probably sorta agree)

number two
there is literally an ending where sans comments on the player screwing with the game and since hard mode is referenced in the annoying dog's profile, meaning it's considered canon, the DH ending may as well be too

Intelligence: Unknown (Though he initially appears to have the mind of a normal dog, the Hard Mode ending reveals he is indeed sapient, as well as very possibly omniscient)

argument against this: not canon, sans says himself it's just an error message thingy, and the annoying dog profile is still garbage

number three
the game comments on it when you change the FH name using the files
argument against this: not canon, it's only for a funny

number four
chara needed the player's soul to recreate the game, and we'd scale to that or smth
argument against this: there's nothing implying they needed our soul (except for why tf would the revived consciousness of a dead child or just a ghost or whatever tf they even are be able to snap the universe into existence and warp reality on their own just because their partner killed ~100 people and became overpowered)

number five
it's a very fourth-wall breaky game where the creator of the game is a canon character and two whole characters probably talk directly to the player and actual RPG game mechanics are part of the lore, one of the final bosses literally uses saving and loading to his advantage and crashes the game and stuff, why not?
argument against this: no (idfk lol)

 

[Justkillme42069]

As I understand, Low 2-C would be based on the player being able to perform true resets.

it's not, as far as we know nothing is being damaged during a reset or a true reset so idk why that would ever be considered attack potency

 

[Antvasima]

You need to calm down and clean up your language a bit.

 

[Justkillme42069]

ehh ok

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you.

 

[QuasiYuri]

it's not, as far as we know nothing is being damaged during a reset or a true reset so idk why that would ever be considered attack potency

We consider Enrico Pucci's reset as Low 2-C despite being litteraly universal scale Power Bestowal that doesn't harm anyone; so I think True Reset has no reason to not qualify.

 

[Justkillme42069]

We consider Enrico Pucci's reset as Low 2-C despite being litteraly universal scale Power Bestowal that doesn't harm anyone; so I think True Reset has no reason to not qualify.

oh yeah I forgot about that
doesn't pucci not even destroy the universe himself, he just hyper-speeds up time until heat death naturally occurs or whatever?

 

[QuasiYuri]

oh yeah I forgot about that
doesn't pucci not even destroy the universe though, he just hyper-speeds up time until heat death naturally occurs or whatever?

Yeah, he just speeds up stuff till the reset naturally happen.