The Anomaly Deltarune key + Time Manipulation for Kris

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Well, the thing is simple, really.

The player in Deltarune is aknowledged much more blatantly. The early avatar creation where your vessle gets scrapped, you being forced to take Kris as a vessel, the dialogue that proves Kris is possessed by them (Kris acting out of character, Kris trying to resist the player when throwing away the ball of junk, Kris losing their ability to play the piano, etc.), the one time where you tell Susie to go to a certain direction by the prison (she thinks it was Kris, but it happens explicitly once the player chooses a direction for her to move towards).

And lastly and most blatantly, when Kris rips out the red soul and puts it into a cage. You, the player, can control the red soul inside the cage, but Kris is now able to act indipendent of you.


I think it's rather safe to say that the player is a character in Deltarune. The fact that they get more specific powers should warrant a key for the DR presentation of them.

For what powers they would have:

All UT Anomaly powers: the player is allowed several times to reference undertale (Asking about Sans' and Toriel's relation, or Undyne and Alphys', or recognizing Sans as soon as you meet, etc.) as well as Toby saying you should play Undertale before playing Deltarune.

Time Manipulation: You are the one making saves, loading as well as resetting. This time, it's specifically shown that you outright overwrite Kris' own save file, instead making one in the name you've chosen for yourself.

Possibly Avatar creation: Possibly as it hasn't been shown to work, but the avatar you create at the start of the game is claimed to be disgarded, implying it did exist. It also remains in the code of the game, despite not appearing in-game (yet), so I think a possibly should be fine? Still, I'm fine with not adding this until chapter 2 makes it more clear.

Limited Possession: Clear enough, whoever becomes the vessel of their soul becomes controlled by them.

Low 2-C: You can delete, copy and over impose one of three timelines at a time, each being a save slot. Each save slot has a minor difference unrelated to the player (the contents of Asriel's drawer). The final choice of erasing them is even directly worded the same as when Chara destroys the world. See a list of the wording here.


And now, Kris. Kris is showm having had a save file of his own, and is outright able to save when a vessel for the player. They should have saving and loading as a power.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Possibly Avatar creation: Possibly as it hasn't been shown to work, but the avatar you create at the start of the game is claimed to be disgarded, implying it did exist. It also remains in the code of the game, despite not appearing in-game (yet), so I think a possibly should be fine? Still, I'm fine with not adding this until chapter 2 makes it more clear.

I disagree with ''possibly'', it should be a solid Avatar Creation, as we literally can create a new vessel/body

 

[Justkillme42069]

I agree with all of this

 

[Bernkastelll]

I disagree with ''possibly'', it should be a solid Avatar Creation, as we literally can create a new vessel/body

And yeah, I agree with everything, except the ''possibly'' rating, it should be a solid Avatar Creation

 

[Rez]

I agree with this

 

[SpydeyBaboon]

I agree with all of this except Avatar creation on its own. Maybe with the help of the mysterious voice, since it helps us during the process.
As for the name, maybe don't use "Anomaly (Deltarune)", because "Anomaly" isn't even mentioned by anyone in DR so far. Maybe "The Player" or "Red Soul" would work better.

As for the thing I wanted to talk about back then:
(tl;dr: Despite it being 3 years old now, maybe it's too early to determine who or what the red soul is with the information we gathered out of a demo)

the one time where you tell Susie to go to a certain direction by the prison (she thinks it was Kris, but it happens explicitly once the player chooses a direction for her to move towards).

Maybe she thought it was Kris because we did something similar beforehand? Through Kris, we told her what to do in that puzzle:

Not to mention that, no matter what we pick, she always goes to our left/her right. It's possible that we told her, through Kris, where to go, but she didn't hear anyhow.

The early avatar creation where your vessle gets scrapped, you being forced to take Kris as a vessel, the dialogue that proves Kris is possessed by them (Kris acting out of character, Kris trying to resist the player when throwing away the ball of junk, Kris losing their ability to play the piano, etc.)

And lastly and most blatantly, when Kris rips out the red soul and puts it into a cage. You, the player, can control the red soul inside the cage, but Kris is now able to act indipendent of you.

I agree with this, the red soul isn't Kris, especially considering their description in the Dark World:

What I don't agree with is that it is safe to say that the red soul confirms the existance of the player as an entity.

For example, in Kris' room:

That red wagon and birdcage have been here for quite a while, the narration even says that it has seen quite a few crashes:


With the ground nearby being stained:

Would it be possible to claim that the red soul has been in this world before us, given that Kris had this ready for it (and possibly used it before)?

Still, let's talk about the red soul's possible identity. If we were to assume that the prompts in DR work the same way they used to in UT, then it means that they are given by the characters in the game:


Including the human you play as:


So, someone is giving us these prompts, possibly knowing about the world of UT and its pacifist outcome, and it likely isn't Kris, as they probably never visited the undertale verse:


Considering the red soul is still possessing Kris in the overworld section, it seems unable to recognize Rudy:

Which is interesting to note, since he doesn't appear in UT due to him dying beforehand (Alarm Clock):


So maybe it would be safe to say that it's the soul who is giving these prompts, and that it comes from UT.

The problem with this second part, of course, would be that Toby told us that the characters from UT would remain untouched but apparently those two worlds will show connections later down the line, according to the FAQ (link).

So, just like last time, it is still pretty ambiguous, but there's no harm in creating it for now, maybe not calling it "Anomaly (Deltarune)". Perhaps "The Player (Deltarune)" or "Red Soul (Deltarune)" would work.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I agree with all of this except Avatar creation on its own. Maybe with the help of the mysterious voice, since it helps us during the process.
As for the name, maybe don't use "Anomaly (Deltarune)", because "Anomaly" isn't even mentioned by anyone in DR so far. Maybe "The Player" or "Red Soul" would work better.

It would be a key on the anomaly's profile.

Would it be possible to claim that the red soul has been in this world before us, given that Kris had this ready for it (and possibly used it before)?

...No. That is a much bigger reach than anything else.

Everyone is weirded out by how Kris is acting if you chose to act out of character, and at no point does the game imply this is something that happened before. There being a birdcage and a stain near it is not something that can be extrapolated to mean something that important. If Toriel, or Kris' classmates, mentioned how he sporadically becomes more active, maybe.

But as it is right now, that's no fairer an assumption than to claim the angel with no face by the hospital is our avatar. Not impossible, but without ground to be added.

Still, let's talk about the red soul's possible identity. If we were to assume that the prompts in DR work the same way they used to in UT, then it means that they are given by the characters in the game:


Including the human you play as:


So, someone is giving us these prompts, possibly knowing about the world of UT and its pacifist outcome, and it likely isn't Kris, as they probably never visited the undertale verse:

Once again, a rather baseless assumption, this time even made worse by the fact that it is outright incorrect.

Even in undertale, when you have to make a choice without being in a battle, you get the same kind of prompt (think of "is anime real" or "erase this world")

The problem with this second part, of course, would be that Toby told us that the characters from UT would remain untouched but apparently those two worlds will show connections later down the line, according to the FAQ (link).

Yes. Deltarune, despite connections, will not alter how you played UT. So, no genocidal Chara, since Toby won't stronghold your only pacifist run of the game into being not the canonical ending.

The obvious solution is for characters like Ghaster and followers, who while mentioned, are seperated from any endings or events, to appear (there's also Ghaster's theme and all that). Another solution is to aknowledge the player, who can know the other game (for obvious reason, Toby said you need to play UT to play DR), but whose presence in DR wouldn't change anything they did in UT.


While of course we could simply get an explaination for the player being another entity, UT and DR both have enough fourth wall breaks that it wouldn't be much of a problem.


However, I suppose listing them as simply the red soul should fine. That would be a fine solution to the other thread too, since whether it's the player or not, there being a third entity seemed something most were fine agreeing with.

 

[SpydeyBaboon]

It would be a key on the anomaly's profile.

That profile already changed names. It's "The Player (Undertale)" now.

Even in undertale, when you have to make a choice without being in a battle, you get the same kind of prompt (think of "is anime real" or "erase this world")

The battle hud (and subsequently, its options) are a different topic all-together. Asgore and Sans can interact with it, while everyone else can change the color of the sparing text and throw the yellow text in the trash.

As for the talking prompts, they also have some personality in both games (Only being able to "Roleplay" in Alphys date, "No No No No No No No" when choosing to read the anime reviews in the library). Saying that someone is giving them isn't as much of a stretch.

However, I suppose listing them as simply the red soul should fine. That would be a fine solution to the other thread too, since whether it's the player or not, there being a third entity seemed something most were fine agreeing with.

Yeah, still a demo, but there's clearly a third-party here.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

As for the talking prompts, they also have some personality in both games (Only being able to "Roleplay" in Alphys date, "No No No No No No No" when choosing to read the anime reviews in the library). Saying that someone is giving them isn't as much of a stretch.

That's just a baseless assumption again.... I'm fine with theorizing, but Occam's Razor applies in such situations. Claiming that not only in Deltarune, but that even in Undertale an unseen, unknown entity is giving the prompts based on that is a stretch. It's far more likely that they are simply options given to chose how the character reacts. Them having opinions in them is most likely the opinion that the characters themselves have, much like how trying to throw away a ball of chunk is met with a lot of resistance from Kris, showing what Kris once despite you being able to choose otherwise.

 

[SpydeyBaboon]

even in Undertale an unseen, unknown entity is giving the prompts based on that is a stretch.

I never claimed that, or if I did it was out of bad wording. Sorry. What I was trying to say is that the options are given to the characters by themselves or whoever they are interacting with.

It's far more likely that they are simply options given to chose how the character reacts. Them having opinions in them is most likely the opinion that the characters themselves have

Yes, pretty much this.

 

[Antvasima]

This seems to make sense to me.

@Elizhaa @Amelia_Lonelyheart @Therefir @Starter_Pack @CrimsonStarFallen @Andytrenom @DemonGodMitchAubin @Psychomaster35

What do you think about this?

 

[Andytrenom]

A new key is fine

I think avatar creation should be solid

I will wait for further opinions on Low 2-C

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Planck69]

This mostly looks fine to me. Neutral on Low 2-C but leaning towards it.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to you as well.

 

[Lollipop_The_King]

Agree with Everything.

 

[Starter_Pack]

This seems fine.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you.

What has been accepted by our staff can probably be applied here.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

The Player (Undertale)

The Player Entity is an enigmatic creature that influences Frisk throughout Undertale. Due to seeing Undertale's world as a mere game and its characters as fictional, they seem to lack empathy for the characters and are willing to even kill all of them just to see a different ending. While their...

vsbattles.fandom.com

This profile needs to be unlocked.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Tell me here when you are done.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Alright, should be done.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Is there anything left to do here, or should I close this thread?

 

[Bernkastelll]

Alright, should be done.

Shouldnt the name be changed? As The Player is not only from Undertale, but Deltarune as well

 

[Bernkastelll]

Uh, I found a minor mistake in the profile, it is rated as Low 2-C but the AP mentions ''Low Multiversal,'' it should be ''Universal+''

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Ah, sorry, I glanced at tiering system and... 2-C is listed before Low 2-C, for some reason.

 

[Antvasima]

I will unlock the page so you can adjust it. Tell me here when you are done.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Alright, it's been adjusted.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. Should I close this thread then?

 

[KingPin0422]

Hang on. I have a few complaints.

First off, I feel as though the addition of Possession is redundant when The Player already has Body Control from their Undertale power set with basically the same justification. I think it should be either one or the other.

Secondly, and more importantly... why is The Player getting Low 2-C for the exact same feat that Photoshop Flowey performed and didn't get Low 2-C from? Both of them can erase save files, which we treat as containing entire timelines in The Player's case, but not in Flowey's case??? There had better be a good explanation for why save files are equivalent to timelines in one world and not in the other.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Hang on. I have a few complaints.

First off, I feel as though the addition of Possession is redundant when The Player already has Body Control from their Undertale power set with basically the same justification. I think it should be either one or the other.

Secondly, and more importantly... why is The Player getting Low 2-C for the exact same feat that Photoshop Flowey performed and didn't get Low 2-C from? Both of them can erase save files, which we treat as containing entire timelines in The Player's case, but not in Flowey's case??? There had better be a good explanation for why save files are equivalent to timelines in one world and not in the other.

The answer to both is context. For Frisk, we have no idea how they control them, and certainly don't assume its through the red SOUL.

For the second, because there is a lot of difference between what Flowey and the player does. The Player's erasure is made to reference Chara's own actions, and is very blatant that those timelines are being destroyed and left barren.


You can't scale anything that is explained in DR to UT until future chapters make it clear that yes, the mechanics in one are absolutely the same as the other (if it will at all).

 

[KingPin0422]

For the second, because there is a lot of difference between what Flowey and the player does. The Player's erasure is made to reference Chara's own actions, and is very blatant that those timelines are being destroyed and left barren.

Okay, but why doesn't Flowey's version of the feat qualify? As I said before, he literally has the same kind of feat (erasing a save file). I need you to explain why save files are timelines in Deltarune, why they are not timelines in Undertale, and why Deltarune shouldn't be used as evidence of save files being timelines in Undertale. There will be confusion if we don't properly justify something being the case in one and not the other.

I get that Undertale and Deltarune have different rules (hell, Toby Fox himself said as much), but this is a big thing and I feel that we need more than just Word of God to convince people that save file mechanics are not congruent between these two worlds. Make a blog post to address it if you have to.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Okay, but why doesn't Flowey's version of the feat qualify?

If you disagree with, make a different crt for that.

As I said before, he literally has the same kind of feat (erasing a save file).

His feat lacks the context that makes this one legitimate, which the whole texts like "it will be subsumed", "it will be destroyed" in bold red, and "it's like it was never there" among many others do.

I need you to explain why save files are timelines in Deltarune, why they are not timelines in Undertale, and why Deltarune shouldn't be used as evidence of save files being timelines in Undertale. There will be confusion if we don't properly justify something being the case in one and not the other.

Strangely, there was no confusion so far. AUs don't scale in-between each other, same as with Jojo. Until there's any proof that DR verse-mechanics or lore apply to UT, you can't use DR stuff for UT. For the same reason UT characters don't scale to 9-B+ from Jevil.

I get that Undertale and Deltarune have different rules (hell, Toby Fox himself said as much), but this is a big thing and I feel that we need more than just Word of God to convince people that save file mechanics are not congruent between these two worlds. Make a blog post to address it if you have to.

No..? This wouldn't scale even if there was a lack of word of god, due to burden of proof. There is no need to dump a blog for everything on a person. It's as simple as "original story doesn't scale to au until proven otherwise".

 

[KingPin0422]

Mmm... alright, I won't press this further. This thread did what it was made to do, so I guess we can wrap it up for now and analyze Flowey's feat later, when people actually want to debate over whether or not it should get the same treatment as what The Player did.

@Antvasima (don't know if retired staff can mention people) I think you can go ahead and close this thread now.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I can say that I wouldn't disagree with Flowey being Low 2-C, but I just don't have it in me to go through arguing that all over again.

And yes, I believe this thread can be closed.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will do so.