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I'm looking at the profiles for the top tiers and I'm seeing that they're all at "Massively FTL+" which I feel is too low. If anything, they should be bumped up back to Immeasurable speed and I will detail them below.
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"Yeah!"
The members of the Gurren Lagann behind me nodded vigorously when I said that. Thank you, brother. I believe in you who believes in me. I believe in my friends who believes in myself.
Simon held up his core drill to the heaven and a flash of light flashed across the sky. Countless appearances of Simon appeared in the sky, and they were the past, the present, and the future, every place, every time, and the innumerable selves that live in a world of infinite possibilities.
There is no escaping wherever you go. In a closed infinite universe, various lives are repeated. In that universe of possibilities, Simon twisted the countless selves he had drilled into one, twisting them together into a giant drill, and before he realized that it was a huge drill, Simon wasn't there but Gurren Lagann. There stood Gurren Lagann, holding up the giga drill, "Let's go, buddy!"
Kamina: Yeah. (Nodding)
The other members of the Team Dai-Gurren who were behind him nodded. Simon turns his back. Simon's appearances spread out across the entire space. It's Simon's appearances spread out in a multiverse of possibilities for each possible appearance. But the core drill shines in Simon's chest. and his left arm becomes Gurren Lagann's. A drill appears from "there". That drill spins rapidly. The drill engulfs Simon in the multiverse, turning him into a vortex of light. Simon "Let's go, buddy."
In that glow, Simon transforms into Gurren Lagann's form and flies off into the void.
Feelings and wishes, remorse and hope, past and future, The ultimate evolution of Gurren Lagann created by swallowing everything about ourselves. The giant covered in green flames is the biggest thing a human or mediator has created.
The universe was a closed universe. How many years were reassembled there? Of course, it doesn't make sense to count the time that has passed by in this space. Until known, there will be enemies who have been frozen. Time began to flow again with that information. The isolated universe, which was created solely for the purpose of eradicating the Spirals, are a major element that make up the universe.
Attacking across time and space is hax by its very nature, though. And it requires transcending time itself in order to pull off to begin with, if I'm not wrong.I don't think it was because of prep time? It was because the feat required hax to do so, making it not speed
Yes. Time flows in the Anti-Spiral dimension only when the AS wills it to, as detailed in the post covering the series' script and novelization.Does the anti spiral show any kind of superiority to time itself tho? Saying that you transcend time is not enough to grant immesuerable
The Anti-Spiral transcends the entire multiverse in the sense of they are capable to freely manipulate it, use it merely as a tool to trap people's conciousnesses across the multiverse while replicating the universes instant to instant at the same time, not in the sense of transcending the multiverse as whole in uncountably infinite gap, it may give them Immeasurable speed but it also would warrants them 1-B rating, which I'm not comfortable with.For starters, the feat that seems to have started the discussion about Immeasurable speed for this series is Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann's beam spam, and it's been rejected because of "prep time". However, this shouldn't matter because the Anti-Spiral is stronger and faster, and the AS transcends the entire multiversal labyrinth that it created, as confirmed in supplementary material (the official artbook, in this case):
Lordgenome didn't lock the Ashtangas travelling along the time-axes randomly with their Schroedinger Warp in the probability space with his reaction speed, Mega Maelstrom Vortex Cannon from SGGL did that, I mean, it is ridiculous to have Lordgenome's reaction speed as Immeasurable at that time.As for the beam spam that Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann did, it really doesn't have that much "prep time". In fact, Lordgenome locks on to the Ashtanga traveling along the time axes near-instantly. Unless Lordgenome now suddenly has better senses than the Anti-Spiral, then I personally don't buy into the "prep time" excuse.
That's correct, but your given scan is refering to their own universe in the context, a universe which they can control according to their own whim and was created solely to study the Spiral beings.Note: "universe" and "multiverse" are used interchangeably with each other in Gurren Lagann. We already know that the cosmology is based on Brane cosmology anyway but that's beside the point.
It was just wrong, it flies across time, including all universes and dimensions.BTW, the SGGL shooting through time thing has been called at MFTL+
That sucks, I barely found any MFTL feats, although someone from Narutoforum iirc had calcs from high FTL to FTL+.Really? If then so, then yikes. Time to find another MFTL+ speed deat or else SGGL will like just be "At least FTL"
Whether MFTL+ or Immeasurable, that still doesn't scale to its base speed though. Also like I said, it flies across time, to past and future, as well to all universes and dimensions, we can't calc it since the time here is undefined, aka being ignored.Honestly, we should be safe with Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann’s attack speed. The Mega Vortex Maelstrom Cannon looks like it could be the use of hax, rather than sheer speed. There’s actually a calc that put the Mega Vortex Maelstrom Cannon attack at 3.2320924e71c, which is a god tier Massively FTL+ feat. It’s safer to just put its speed rating at “Massively FTL+ Attack Speed, likely Immeasurable”. SGGL has no other speed calc other than for its attack; no movement speed calc, no reactions calc, no flight, no combat speed, just attack speed
Yeah, that’s just the use of Space-Time Manipulation or Time TravelWhether MFTL+ or Immeasurable, that still doesn't scale to its base speed though. Also like I said, it flies across time, to past and future, as well to all universes and dimensions, we can't calc it since the time here is undefined, aka being ignored.
Except it isn't immeasurable tho. It doesn't follow the requirements to even qualify for likely.
Also link for the MFTL+ calc?
The High 6-A calc is very sustainable looking at it. I feel it should be replaced by GL blowing parts of the moon, which look to yield 6-B resultsEdit: We really should recalc all the calcs, I can warrant you that High 6-A pre-time skip Gurren Lagann is wrong.
I thought that blowing part was 6-A at least though? Also, that Teppelin Hammer calc had GL as 70 meters tall which is... a bruh moment, I have the official height chart and it ain't taller than 15 meters.The High 6-A calc is very sustainable looking at it. I feel it should be replaced by GL blowing parts of the moon, which look to yield 6-B results
I've seen height charts put GL at 5 meters...I thought that blowing part was 6-A at least though? Also, that Teppelin Hammer calc had GL as 70 meters tall which is... a bruh moment, I have the official height chart and it ain't taller than 15 meters.
Nah it was never 5 meters actually, it was just a rough estimation, here you can pixel calc it with pre-timeskip Simon.I've seen height charts put GL at 5 meters...
And you’re absolutely wrong on all counts. You're making assumptions where there are none; making up "context" not supported by the series itself.I... disagree, I've been fighting for this, the only thing that indicates they have Immeasurable speed is their scaling to the Anti-Spiral which are explicitly to be unbound by time, moving without being restricted by time is Immeasurable speed, however, the context may just refer to acausality and immunity to time manipulation, which sounds a lot more convincing rather than transcending linear time as whole, since they don't have past and future + upscaling to TTGL which transcends time and space.
Whether you're comfortable or not is irrelevant; feats are feats.The Anti-Spiral transcends the entire multiverse in the sense of they are capable to freely manipulate it, use it merely as a tool to trap people's conciousnesses across the multiverse while replicating the universes instant to instant at the same time, not in the sense of transcending the multiverse as whole in uncountably infinite gap, it may give them Immeasurable speed but it also would warrants them 1-B rating, which I'm not comfortable with.
Lordgenome didn't lock the Ashtangas travelling along the time-axes randomly with their Schroedinger Warp in the probability space with his reaction speed, Mega Maelstrom Vortex Cannon from SGGL did that, I mean, it is ridiculous to have Lordgenome's reaction speed as Immeasurable at that time.
You do realize that the final battle was broadcasted because a hole got opened from the Anti-Spiral's multiverse to Simon's world, right? They were outright going to reach out for Earth with no issues before Dayakka used his "I Have The Best Wife in the Universe!" Swing to keep them away.That's correct, but your given scan is refering to their own universe in the context, a universe which they can control according to their own whim and was created solely to study the Spiral beings.
To put in short, they are just abilities, not sheer speed, and the final battle was happened in real time on earth like, we won't assume humans on earth do have Immeasurable speed reactions, right? Btw, that some neat scans you have, I might improve my blog with 'em.
Edit: Typo
It is a strange room. It is not even a room. It is a place separated from continuous time and space. It is surrounded by walls, but I couldn't tell if it is matter, or if it is fixed time, or if it is something else entirely. It doesn't radiate anything. It doesn't reflect anything. It is not interfered with by any time in the universe. It is an independent time flowing only in this room.
Nia's scream is the only sound that echoed in the empty room. The Anti-spiral's homeworld. The space between the tenth and eleventh dimensions. An empty space-time on this planet, separated from both time and space. Nia, trapped there, is now about to be completely analyzed by the Anti-Spiral's original form. "No matter how much you examine my body, you will never be able to defeat them now. He will come, you can be sure of that." Nia said, desperately trying to regenerate. She brings back memories of the past and spins her body with them. "It's useless, irregular." But the Anti-Spiral instantly read the truth of the information.
The fact that Simon's Spiral Power reached across the past, present, and future and he merged with all of them in order to break out of the Anti-Spiral's Multiversal Labyrinth? The fact that despite that, the Anti-Spiral was still overpowering him and the entirety of Team Dai-Gurren until they got their second wind when they saw the Earth being in immediate danger? The fact that even after said second wind, the fight only finally because even when they absorbed the power of the Infinity Big Bang Storm?I'm confused. What about any of this proves Immeasurable speed? Transcending time is no longer enough and I can't make sense of what I should be focusing on in the rest.
Punching a hole through time and space is hax by its very nature, so yes, the Mega Vortex Maelstrom Cannon is hax for being able to do just that. However, Lordgenome sensed the Ashtanga moving along the time axes in real time to calibrate the MVMC's targeting.Honestly, we should be safe with Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann’s attack speed. The Mega Vortex Maelstrom Cannon looks like it could be the use of hax, rather than sheer speed. There’s actually a calc that put the Mega Vortex Maelstrom Cannon attack at 3.2320924e71c, which is a god tier Massively FTL+ feat. It’s safer to just put its speed rating at “Massively FTL+ Attack Speed, likely Immeasurable”. SGGL has no other speed calc other than for its attack; no movement speed calc, no reactions calc, no flight, no combat speed, just attack speed
Pretty much all of the feats here are range, dimensional travel or just transcending time. None of which qualify for Immeasurable.
So, Simon's Spiral Energy legit traveling across the past, present, and future to absorb versions of himself across the multiverse in order to break out of the Multiversal Labyrinth means nothing to anyone here.Yeah pretty much. Transcending Time and Space can just be being unrestricted by the boundaries of space-time. And the Mega Vortex Maelstrom Cannon shot throughout time feat is like a Low Multiversal range feat, with the use of Space-Time Hax. And the Ashtanga moving throughout the time axis is just time travel, there’s nothing indicating they can move with sheer movement alone
I already posted them above. It's not just a statement; the Anti-Spiral has full, utter control of the Super Spiral Space's space-time. Which makes sense because it created the entire thing.Being stated to transcend time means nothing without a feat showing just what that entails.
Except, you know, it was the Ashtanga using Spiral Energy, and they were moving up and down the time axes as Lordgenome was tracking them. If that's not freely moving across linear time, then I don't know what is.The sending of Sliral Energy along the time axes looks more to be range than moving faster than instantly. Unless you believe every non-scaling based Low 2-C has Immeasurable speed attacks.
Immeasurable (Movement beyond linear time. This is why the speed cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed. For further information, see note 6 and 7 below.)
Note 6:
Being able to casually roam around freely across linear time qualifies for immeasurable speed. However, traveling to different time periods through movement is a common feat in fiction that often leads to inconsistencies and has been done via FTL travel or running laps around the earth faster than it rotates. This can lead to characters being assigned an additional, independent, speed rating for the ability. This should preferably be evaluated case by case.
The difference between infinite and immeasurable is that the former can go everywhere instantly, whereas the latter can go everywhere and everywhen faster than instantly.
Furthermore, speed isn't defined by any number of spatial dimensions but simply distance over time. Meaning that it is possible for 1-dimensional characters to be faster than those who cover many dimensions. And the distance between two timelines is defined as the 5th dimension (Or a 4th spatial dimension) that separates two or more universes. Said distance is often unknown as it could be anywhere between much smaller than the Universal radius and infinite. But such details are only known to those who can travel through additional spatial dimensions. For that reason, crossing Universes is unquantifiable for speed unless details are specifically stated.
Note 6 was performed by Simon when he flew through multiple universes/dimensions inside the Labyrinth when he picked up Team Dai-Gurren to take them to where Nia and the Anti-Spiral were.Note 7:
For more information, Infinite speed characters are so fast, they move faster than time can flow at any period. They perceive every finite speed character as completely frozen and it takes 0 time to react to any finite speed object or travel finite speed distance. They can also perform and infinite number of actions or travel infinite distance within a finite amount of time. An infinite speed character's perception of time only flows when they allow it to flow.
Immeasurable speed characters are far beyond even those Infinite speed characters listed above. They perceive infinite speed characters as completely frozen, and they can travel forward and backward in time at will. They have to speed necessary to hop from the beginning of time, to the end of time, and anywhere in between as casually as a human being can roll their eyes left or right. This also means their reaction time is faster than instantaneous. They can dodge an attack that already has been struck, and they can strike someone even before they launched an attack. And they can do all of this via sheer speed.
Which the Anti-Spiral did, also detailed in the link above.An infinite speed character's perception of time only flows when they allow it to flow.
Now, remind me what the Ashtanga were doing again? Right, using their Spiral Power, they used the Schrodinger's Warp to freely travel up and down the time axes. Lordgenome, once again, tracked them as they did so.Immeasurable speed characters are far beyond even those Infinite speed characters listed above. They perceive infinite speed characters as completely frozen, and they can travel forward and backward in time at will. They have to speed necessary to hop from the beginning of time, to the end of time, and anywhere in between as casually as a human being can roll their eyes left or right.
Except the Flash example works because you're showing one type of standard for him and, somehow, another for Gurren Lagann despite feats already showed your way.Flash actually does treat the movement through time as raw speed faster than instant movement. And if he didn't, he'd be downgraded, whataboutisms aren't going to change anything here.
Then this is just space-time manipulation.I already posted them above. It's not just a statement; the Anti-Spiral has full, utter control of the Super Spiral Space's space-time. Which makes sense because it created the entire thing.
Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann did the same thing when it was formed because, as already mentioned above as well, it creates Super Spiral Space within itself every time it's formed.
This is range.Except, you know, it was the Ashtanga using Spiral Energy, and they were moving up and down the time axes as Lordgenome was tracking them. If that's not freely moving across linear time, then I don't know what is.
Also, it's not just range because Simon's own Spiral Energy, much like the Ashtanga themselves, allowed him to reach across the past, present, and future in order to break free of the Multiversal Labyrinth by forming Gurren Lagann, and then he traveled across said Labyrinth. Even if you somehow dismiss Immeasurable speed, the fact that Simon traveled from dimension to dimension in the Labyrinth as he set his teammates free from the Anti-Spiral's grip shows that he at least has Infinite speed.
I have no clue how you got "can fly anywhere and anywhen in time as if it were space" from flying between universes.Also, let's look at the wiki's definition of Immeasurable as well. Let me get it for you: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Speed
Note 6 was performed by Simon when he flew through multiple universes/dimensions inside the Labyrinth when he picked up Team Dai-Gurren to take them to where Nia and the Anti-Spiral were.
And why is this not time travel as opposed to speed?Detailed here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3712650
Note 7 has this:
Which the Anti-Spiral did, also detailed in the link above.
Now, let's see what it has to say about Immeasurable speed itself:
Now, remind me what the Ashtanga were doing again? Right, using their Spiral Power, they used the Schrodinger's Warp to freely travel up and down the time axes. Lordgenome, once again, tracked them as they did so.
What are you even on about here? I care little for Flash qualifying or not. I'm pointing out how "but X got it!" isn't an argument.https://forums.spacebattles.com/thr...lagann-feats-lore-calcs.869005/#post-70309466
Except the Flash example works because you're showing one type of standard for him and, somehow, another for Gurren Lagann despite feats already showed your way.
If we were to take your logic, no one would be Immeasurable speed because all of it would be "ability-based". Even Flash's because his time travel is an ability granted to him by the Speed Force.
I’m pretty sure Leeron said something about the universe being infinite in sizeThen this is just space-time manipulation.
This is range.
If these dimensions are infinite in size or he flies through infinite number of them, and through speed and not dimensional travel, then I can see Infinite speed.
I have no clue how you got "can fly anywhere and anywhen in time as if it were space" from flying between universes.
And why is this not time travel as opposed to speed?
What are you even on about here? I care little for Flash qualifying or not. I'm pointing out how "but X got it!" isn't an argument.