Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann Speed Revision

[BardicheAssault]

I'm looking at the profiles for the top tiers and I'm seeing that they're all at "Massively FTL+" which I feel is too low. If anything, they should be bumped up back to Immeasurable speed and I will detail them below.

 

[BardicheAssault]

For starters, the feat that seems to have started the discussion about Immeasurable speed for this series is Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann's beam spam, and it's been rejected because of "prep time". However, this shouldn't matter because the Anti-Spiral is stronger and faster, and the AS transcends the entire multiversal labyrinth that it created, as confirmed in supplementary material (the official artbook, in this case):

Spoiler

 

[BardicheAssault]

As for the beam spam that Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann did, it really doesn't have that much "prep time". In fact, Lordgenome locks on to the Ashtanga traveling along the time axes near-instantly. Unless Lordgenome now suddenly has better senses than the Anti-Spiral, then I personally don't buy into the "prep time" excuse.

Spoiler

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I don't think it was because of prep time? It was because the feat required hax to do so, making it not speed

 

[BardicheAssault]

Again, as confirmed by the artbook, the Anti-Spiral transcends all of this:

Spoiler

 

[BardicheAssault]

There's more from the novelization and the series' script itself:

Spoiler

TRANSLATION:

"Yeah!"

The members of the Gurren Lagann behind me nodded vigorously when I said that. Thank you, brother. I believe in you who believes in me. I believe in my friends who believes in myself.

Simon held up his core drill to the heaven and a flash of light flashed across the sky. Countless appearances of Simon appeared in the sky, and they were the past, the present, and the future, every place, every time, and the innumerable selves that live in a world of infinite possibilities.

There is no escaping wherever you go. In a closed infinite universe, various lives are repeated. In that universe of possibilities, Simon twisted the countless selves he had drilled into one, twisting them together into a giant drill, and before he realized that it was a huge drill, Simon wasn't there but Gurren Lagann. There stood Gurren Lagann, holding up the giga drill, "Let's go, buddy!"

Spoiler

SCRIPT TRANSLATION:

Kamina: Yeah. (Nodding)

The other members of the Team Dai-Gurren who were behind him nodded. Simon turns his back. Simon's appearances spread out across the entire space. It's Simon's appearances spread out in a multiverse of possibilities for each possible appearance. But the core drill shines in Simon's chest. and his left arm becomes Gurren Lagann's. A drill appears from "there". That drill spins rapidly. The drill engulfs Simon in the multiverse, turning him into a vortex of light. Simon "Let's go, buddy."

In that glow, Simon transforms into Gurren Lagann's form and flies off into the void.

There's more when TTGL is formed:

Spoiler

TRANSLATION:

Feelings and wishes, remorse and hope, past and future, The ultimate evolution of Gurren Lagann created by swallowing everything about ourselves. The giant covered in green flames is the biggest thing a human or mediator has created.

Time also only flows when the Anti-Spiral wants it to:

Spoiler

TRANSLATION:

The universe was a closed universe. How many years were reassembled there? Of course, it doesn't make sense to count the time that has passed by in this space. Until known, there will be enemies who have been frozen. Time began to flow again with that information. The isolated universe, which was created solely for the purpose of eradicating the Spirals, are a major element that make up the universe.

Note: "universe" and "multiverse" are used interchangeably with each other in Gurren Lagann. We already know that the cosmology is based on Brane cosmology anyway but that's beside the point.

 

[BardicheAssault]

I don't think it was because of prep time? It was because the feat required hax to do so, making it not speed

Attacking across time and space is hax by its very nature, though. And it requires transcending time itself in order to pull off to begin with, if I'm not wrong.

It's the same reasoning for Pre-Crisis Superman having at least infinite speed to potentially immeasurable speed: he broke through the boundaries of infinity in order to chase Supergirl, and he nearly reached Heaven and had to be stopped by the Spectre from proceeding further. Breaking through the boundaries of infinity is a hax feat, yet it's still speed.

That's my two cents on the matter.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Does the anti spiral show any kind of superiority to time itself tho? Saying that you transcend time is not enough to grant immesuerable

 

[BardicheAssault]

Does the anti spiral show any kind of superiority to time itself tho? Saying that you transcend time is not enough to grant immesuerable

Yes. Time flows in the Anti-Spiral dimension only when the AS wills it to, as detailed in the post covering the series' script and novelization.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3712650

This post.

There's also the fact that it keeps tabs on everyone in the multiversal labyrinth as shown in the artbook.

 

[Planck69]

I'm confused. What about any of this proves Immeasurable speed? Transcending time is no longer enough and I can't make sense of what I should be focusing on in the rest.

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

I... disagree, I've been fighting for this, the only thing that indicates they have Immeasurable speed is their scaling to the Anti-Spiral which are explicitly to be unbound by time, moving without being restricted by time is Immeasurable speed, however, the context may just refer to acausality and immunity to time manipulation, which sounds a lot more convincing rather than transcending linear time as whole, since they don't have past and future + upscaling to TTGL which transcends time and space.

For starters, the feat that seems to have started the discussion about Immeasurable speed for this series is Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann's beam spam, and it's been rejected because of "prep time". However, this shouldn't matter because the Anti-Spiral is stronger and faster, and the AS transcends the entire multiversal labyrinth that it created, as confirmed in supplementary material (the official artbook, in this case):

The Anti-Spiral transcends the entire multiverse in the sense of they are capable to freely manipulate it, use it merely as a tool to trap people's conciousnesses across the multiverse while replicating the universes instant to instant at the same time, not in the sense of transcending the multiverse as whole in uncountably infinite gap, it may give them Immeasurable speed but it also would warrants them 1-B rating, which I'm not comfortable with.

As for the beam spam that Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann did, it really doesn't have that much "prep time". In fact, Lordgenome locks on to the Ashtanga traveling along the time axes near-instantly. Unless Lordgenome now suddenly has better senses than the Anti-Spiral, then I personally don't buy into the "prep time" excuse.

Lordgenome didn't lock the Ashtangas travelling along the time-axes randomly with their Schroedinger Warp in the probability space with his reaction speed, Mega Maelstrom Vortex Cannon from SGGL did that, I mean, it is ridiculous to have Lordgenome's reaction speed as Immeasurable at that time.

Note: "universe" and "multiverse" are used interchangeably with each other in Gurren Lagann. We already know that the cosmology is based on Brane cosmology anyway but that's beside the point.

That's correct, but your given scan is refering to their own universe in the context, a universe which they can control according to their own whim and was created solely to study the Spiral beings.

To put in short, they are just abilities, not sheer speed, and the final battle was happened in real time on earth like, we won't assume humans on earth do have Immeasurable speed reactions, right? Btw, that some neat scans you have, I might improve my blog with 'em.

Edit: Typo

 

[BluudyManikin777]

If anything recalcs need to be done for everything else, except for the god tier speed since it is recent

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

BTW, the SGGL shooting through time thing has been called at MFTL+

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

BTW, the SGGL shooting through time thing has been called at MFTL+

It was just wrong, it flies across time, including all universes and dimensions.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Really? If then so, then yikes. Time to find another MFTL+ speed deat or else SGGL will like just be "At least FTL"

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

Really? If then so, then yikes. Time to find another MFTL+ speed deat or else SGGL will like just be "At least FTL"

That sucks, I barely found any MFTL feats, although someone from Narutoforum iirc had calcs from high FTL to FTL+.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

It'd be cool to share link

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

Galo de Lion made bunches of calcs, I can't remember which one since there are so many of them (I also remember that he asked me to help him for some translation matters so I got to go now).

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Honestly, we should be safe with Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann’s attack speed. The Mega Vortex Maelstrom Cannon looks like it could be the use of hax, rather than sheer speed. There’s actually a calc that put the Mega Vortex Maelstrom Cannon attack at 3.2320924e71c, which is a god tier Massively FTL+ feat. It’s safer to just put its speed rating at “Massively FTL+ Attack Speed, likely Immeasurable”. SGGL has no other speed calc other than for its attack; no movement speed calc, no reactions calc, no flight, no combat speed, just attack speed

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Except it isn't immeasurable tho. It doesn't follow the requirements to even qualify for likely.

Also link for the MFTL+ calc?

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

Honestly, we should be safe with Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann’s attack speed. The Mega Vortex Maelstrom Cannon looks like it could be the use of hax, rather than sheer speed. There’s actually a calc that put the Mega Vortex Maelstrom Cannon attack at 3.2320924e71c, which is a god tier Massively FTL+ feat. It’s safer to just put its speed rating at “Massively FTL+ Attack Speed, likely Immeasurable”. SGGL has no other speed calc other than for its attack; no movement speed calc, no reactions calc, no flight, no combat speed, just attack speed

Whether MFTL+ or Immeasurable, that still doesn't scale to its base speed though. Also like I said, it flies across time, to past and future, as well to all universes and dimensions, we can't calc it since the time here is undefined, aka being ignored.

Edit: We really should recalc all the calcs, I can warrant you that High 6-A pre-time skip Gurren Lagann is wrong.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Whether MFTL+ or Immeasurable, that still doesn't scale to its base speed though. Also like I said, it flies across time, to past and future, as well to all universes and dimensions, we can't calc it since the time here is undefined, aka being ignored.

Yeah, that’s just the use of Space-Time Manipulation or Time Travel

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Except it isn't immeasurable tho. It doesn't follow the requirements to even qualify for likely.

Also link for the MFTL+ calc?

time

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

Edit: We really should recalc all the calcs, I can warrant you that High 6-A pre-time skip Gurren Lagann is wrong.

The High 6-A calc is very sustainable looking at it. I feel it should be replaced by GL blowing parts of the moon, which look to yield 6-B results

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

The High 6-A calc is very sustainable looking at it. I feel it should be replaced by GL blowing parts of the moon, which look to yield 6-B results

I thought that blowing part was 6-A at least though? Also, that Teppelin Hammer calc had GL as 70 meters tall which is... a bruh moment, I have the official height chart and it ain't taller than 15 meters.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

I thought that blowing part was 6-A at least though? Also, that Teppelin Hammer calc had GL as 70 meters tall which is... a bruh moment, I have the official height chart and it ain't taller than 15 meters.

I've seen height charts put GL at 5 meters...

The teppelin calc feels wildly inflated, and the use of KE does seem odd

About the 6-A part, I said 6-B as most explosion moon calcs I've seen taht are similar to the feat are around the 6-B range. Also apparently, destroying the surface of a moon is 6-A so I doubt it's at that level but who knows, might as well get the feat requested.

Anyway, we're getting off track here

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

I've seen height charts put GL at 5 meters...

Nah it was never 5 meters actually, it was just a rough estimation, here you can pixel calc it with pre-timeskip Simon.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

I’d say maybe that would put GL at high end 6-A to low end High 6-A, considering that GL is close to the high ends of High 6-A

 

[BardicheAssault]

I... disagree, I've been fighting for this, the only thing that indicates they have Immeasurable speed is their scaling to the Anti-Spiral which are explicitly to be unbound by time, moving without being restricted by time is Immeasurable speed, however, the context may just refer to acausality and immunity to time manipulation, which sounds a lot more convincing rather than transcending linear time as whole, since they don't have past and future + upscaling to TTGL which transcends time and space.

And you’re absolutely wrong on all counts. You're making assumptions where there are none; making up "context" not supported by the series itself.

Them transcending time itself already gives them acausality by default.

Let's recap some feats supporting infinite to immeasurable speed, shall we?

• Simon perceives and merges with all possible versions of himself in the Multiverse, past, present and future; this is how he broke out of the Anti-Spiral's Labyrinth.
• Related to the above point, Simon merges together all possible Gurren Laganns in the Multiverse to create Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, as well as all the thoughts and emotions of Team Dai-Gurren from within the Labyrinth.
• After merging with all possible versions of himself, Simon escapes the Multiversal Labyrinth and rescues the other members of Team Dai-Gurren, crashing through universe after universe; this is more infinite speed, really, but the point is they're beyond Massively FTL+.
• The Anti-Spiral transcend time and space and can control dimensions and probability to their will; in their own dimension, they control the very flow of time, with it only flowing when they detect an enemy to defeat in it.
• The Ashtanga is capable of leaving realspace and entering probability space, existing in a schrodinger state in countless places multiple different places across time and dimensions at once; this requires no prep, just entering a portal; the Vriska-class which appears in the novelization is also capable of doing this. Considering the nature of Spiral Power, there is no outside tech helping the Ashtanga out with this; this is pure Spiral Power which is the main energy source for this series.
• Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann's Mega Maelstrom Vortex Cannon targets all possible points in local space and time across different dimensions.
• Perceptual teleportation involves teleporting to any location in space and time that has been previously observed; the Super Spiral Scanner can pick up anything observed just once by sweeping for it across both space and time throughout dimensions. The Anti-Spiral messed with the Super Spiral Scanner by making Super Galaxy Dai-Gurren end up in a spot where they could get ambushed by the Ashtanga.
• Arc Gurren Lagann punches the last Mugann across the space-time continuum and into another dimension
• The Anti-Spiral homeworld is seperated from the rest of the space-time continuum, and contains it's own timeflow

A lot of these have been covered by previous posts detailing additional information found in the official artbooks, the show's script, and the series' novelization.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3712621
https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3712650

The Anti-Spiral transcends the entire multiverse in the sense of they are capable to freely manipulate it, use it merely as a tool to trap people's conciousnesses across the multiverse while replicating the universes instant to instant at the same time, not in the sense of transcending the multiverse as whole in uncountably infinite gap, it may give them Immeasurable speed but it also would warrants them 1-B rating, which I'm not comfortable with.

Whether you're comfortable or not is irrelevant; feats are feats.

They created the Super Spiral Space where the final battle took place in; TTGL also recreated it within itself when it was formed.

Everything that the Anti-Spiral created, from the Multiversal Labyrinth to the Super Spiral Space, all disappeared when Simon defeated them.

To "use [the multiverse] merely as a tool to trap people's consciousness" takes away from the Anti-Spiral's influence how? Because, again, they completely control everything and as one of the novel excerpts show, time legitimately doesn't flow in their multiverse until they sense an enemy; only then will they allow time to flow once more. This isn't even time stop; this is full control over time.

Lordgenome didn't lock the Ashtangas travelling along the time-axes randomly with their Schroedinger Warp in the probability space with his reaction speed, Mega Maelstrom Vortex Cannon from SGGL did that, I mean, it is ridiculous to have Lordgenome's reaction speed as Immeasurable at that time.

Spoiler

And yet that's what it's showing in the series itself. What's so silly about it? By that point in time, Lordgenome's hooked up as the Cathedral Terra's/Super Galaxy Dai-Gurren's supercomputer. That the Anti-Spiral more-or-less confirmed all of Lordgenome's information later on when they talk on Super Galaxy Dai-Gurren's bridge is just icing on the cake.

Once again, the Anti-Spiral has superior senses to Lordgenome.

That's correct, but your given scan is refering to their own universe in the context, a universe which they can control according to their own whim and was created solely to study the Spiral beings.

To put in short, they are just abilities, not sheer speed, and the final battle was happened in real time on earth like, we won't assume humans on earth do have Immeasurable speed reactions, right? Btw, that some neat scans you have, I might improve my blog with 'em.

Edit: Typo

You do realize that the final battle was broadcasted because a hole got opened from the Anti-Spiral's multiverse to Simon's world, right? They were outright going to reach out for Earth with no issues before Dayakka used his "I Have The Best Wife in the Universe!" Swing to keep them away.

Their "own universe" is, for all intents and purposes, a full-on legitimate multiverse as well inside the Super Spiral Space. Not to mention that Simon fused with all versions of himself across the multiverse, past, present, and future, as detailed in the series' script and novelization. I mean no offense but you can't just ignore that simply because you don't like it.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3712650

Link to the excerpts and translations once more.

And some more:

Spoiler

TRANSLATION:

It is a strange room. It is not even a room. It is a place separated from continuous time and space. It is surrounded by walls, but I couldn't tell if it is matter, or if it is fixed time, or if it is something else entirely. It doesn't radiate anything. It doesn't reflect anything. It is not interfered with by any time in the universe. It is an independent time flowing only in this room.

Spoiler

TRANSLATION:

Nia's scream is the only sound that echoed in the empty room. The Anti-spiral's homeworld. The space between the tenth and eleventh dimensions. An empty space-time on this planet, separated from both time and space. Nia, trapped there, is now about to be completely analyzed by the Anti-Spiral's original form. "No matter how much you examine my body, you will never be able to defeat them now. He will come, you can be sure of that." Nia said, desperately trying to regenerate. She brings back memories of the past and spins her body with them. "It's useless, irregular." But the Anti-Spiral instantly read the truth of the information.

I'm confused. What about any of this proves Immeasurable speed? Transcending time is no longer enough and I can't make sense of what I should be focusing on in the rest.

The fact that Simon's Spiral Power reached across the past, present, and future and he merged with all of them in order to break out of the Anti-Spiral's Multiversal Labyrinth? The fact that despite that, the Anti-Spiral was still overpowering him and the entirety of Team Dai-Gurren until they got their second wind when they saw the Earth being in immediate danger? The fact that even after said second wind, the fight only finally because even when they absorbed the power of the Infinity Big Bang Storm?

I don't know about you, but that first point seems to indicate Immeasurable speed, and the fact that the Anti-Spiral can still blitz Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann during the final battle just supplements that the AS is that fast as well.

Honestly, we should be safe with Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann’s attack speed. The Mega Vortex Maelstrom Cannon looks like it could be the use of hax, rather than sheer speed. There’s actually a calc that put the Mega Vortex Maelstrom Cannon attack at 3.2320924e71c, which is a god tier Massively FTL+ feat. It’s safer to just put its speed rating at “Massively FTL+ Attack Speed, likely Immeasurable”. SGGL has no other speed calc other than for its attack; no movement speed calc, no reactions calc, no flight, no combat speed, just attack speed

Punching a hole through time and space is hax by its very nature, so yes, the Mega Vortex Maelstrom Cannon is hax for being able to do just that. However, Lordgenome sensed the Ashtanga moving along the time axes in real time to calibrate the MVMC's targeting.

That still, at minimum, requires Immeasurable reaction speed.

 

[Planck69]

Pretty much all of the feats here are range, dimensional travel or just transcending time. None of which qualify for Immeasurable.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Yeah pretty much. Transcending Time and Space can just be being unrestricted by the boundaries of space-time. And the Mega Vortex Maelstrom Cannon shot throughout time feat is like a Low Multiversal range feat, with the use of Space-Time Hax. And the Ashtanga moving throughout the time axis is just time travel, there’s nothing indicating they can move with sheer movement alone

 

[BardicheAssault]

Pretty much all of the feats here are range, dimensional travel or just transcending time. None of which qualify for Immeasurable.

Yeah pretty much. Transcending Time and Space can just be being unrestricted by the boundaries of space-time. And the Mega Vortex Maelstrom Cannon shot throughout time feat is like a Low Multiversal range feat, with the use of Space-Time Hax. And the Ashtanga moving throughout the time axis is just time travel, there’s nothing indicating they can move with sheer movement alone

So, Simon's Spiral Energy legit traveling across the past, present, and future to absorb versions of himself across the multiverse in order to break out of the Multiversal Labyrinth means nothing to anyone here.

The energy source that allowed the time travel to begin with is Spiral Energy. This is like you guys dismissing Flash being Immeasurable despite the energy source allowing him to time travel via speed being the Speed Force.

So, do tell me, how does "transcending time" not amount to Immeasurable speed anymore? Last I checked, transcending time means being unbound by it. Which we can see due to Spiral Energy allowing them to time travel on a whim. Seriously, all they do is tear a hole through space-time with Spiral Energy in order to travel along the time axes.

Their attacks are performed by Spiral Energy and the Anti-Spiral's superior to them. What part of that do none of you get?

 

[Planck69]

Being stated to transcend time means nothing without a feat showing just what that entails.

The sending of Sliral Energy along the time axes looks more to be range than moving faster than instantly. Unless you believe every non-scaling based Low 2-C has Immeasurable speed attacks.

Flash actually does treat the movement through time as raw speed faster than instant movement. And if he didn't, he'd be downgraded, whataboutisms aren't going to change anything here.

 

[BardicheAssault]

Being stated to transcend time means nothing without a feat showing just what that entails.

I already posted them above. It's not just a statement; the Anti-Spiral has full, utter control of the Super Spiral Space's space-time. Which makes sense because it created the entire thing.

Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann did the same thing when it was formed because, as already mentioned above as well, it creates Super Spiral Space within itself every time it's formed.

The sending of Sliral Energy along the time axes looks more to be range than moving faster than instantly. Unless you believe every non-scaling based Low 2-C has Immeasurable speed attacks.

Except, you know, it was the Ashtanga using Spiral Energy, and they were moving up and down the time axes as Lordgenome was tracking them. If that's not freely moving across linear time, then I don't know what is.

Also, it's not just range because Simon's own Spiral Energy, much like the Ashtanga themselves, allowed him to reach across the past, present, and future in order to break free of the Multiversal Labyrinth by forming Gurren Lagann, and then he traveled across said Labyrinth. Even if you somehow dismiss Immeasurable speed, the fact that Simon traveled from dimension to dimension in the Labyrinth as he set his teammates free from the Anti-Spiral's grip shows that he at least has Infinite speed.

Also, let's look at the wiki's definition of Immeasurable as well. Let me get it for you: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Speed

Immeasurable (Movement beyond linear time. This is why the speed cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed. For further information, see note 6 and 7 below.)

Note 6:

Being able to casually roam around freely across linear time qualifies for immeasurable speed. However, traveling to different time periods through movement is a common feat in fiction that often leads to inconsistencies and has been done via FTL travel or running laps around the earth faster than it rotates. This can lead to characters being assigned an additional, independent, speed rating for the ability. This should preferably be evaluated case by case.

The difference between infinite and immeasurable is that the former can go everywhere instantly, whereas the latter can go everywhere and everywhen faster than instantly.

Furthermore, speed isn't defined by any number of spatial dimensions but simply distance over time. Meaning that it is possible for 1-dimensional characters to be faster than those who cover many dimensions. And the distance between two timelines is defined as the 5th dimension (Or a 4th spatial dimension) that separates two or more universes. Said distance is often unknown as it could be anywhere between much smaller than the Universal radius and infinite. But such details are only known to those who can travel through additional spatial dimensions. For that reason, crossing Universes is unquantifiable for speed unless details are specifically stated.

Note 7:

For more information, Infinite speed characters are so fast, they move faster than time can flow at any period. They perceive every finite speed character as completely frozen and it takes 0 time to react to any finite speed object or travel finite speed distance. They can also perform and infinite number of actions or travel infinite distance within a finite amount of time. An infinite speed character's perception of time only flows when they allow it to flow.

Immeasurable speed characters are far beyond even those Infinite speed characters listed above. They perceive infinite speed characters as completely frozen, and they can travel forward and backward in time at will. They have to speed necessary to hop from the beginning of time, to the end of time, and anywhere in between as casually as a human being can roll their eyes left or right. This also means their reaction time is faster than instantaneous. They can dodge an attack that already has been struck, and they can strike someone even before they launched an attack. And they can do all of this via sheer speed.

Note 6 was performed by Simon when he flew through multiple universes/dimensions inside the Labyrinth when he picked up Team Dai-Gurren to take them to where Nia and the Anti-Spiral were.

Detailed here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3712650

Note 7 has this:

An infinite speed character's perception of time only flows when they allow it to flow.

Which the Anti-Spiral did, also detailed in the link above.

Now, let's see what it has to say about Immeasurable speed itself:

Immeasurable speed characters are far beyond even those Infinite speed characters listed above. They perceive infinite speed characters as completely frozen, and they can travel forward and backward in time at will. They have to speed necessary to hop from the beginning of time, to the end of time, and anywhere in between as casually as a human being can roll their eyes left or right.

Now, remind me what the Ashtanga were doing again? Right, using their Spiral Power, they used the Schrodinger's Warp to freely travel up and down the time axes. Lordgenome, once again, tracked them as they did so.

https://forums.spacebattles.com/thr...lagann-feats-lore-calcs.869005/#post-70309466

Flash actually does treat the movement through time as raw speed faster than instant movement. And if he didn't, he'd be downgraded, whataboutisms aren't going to change anything here.

Except the Flash example works because you're showing one type of standard for him and, somehow, another for Gurren Lagann despite feats already showed your way.

If we were to take your logic, no one would be Immeasurable speed because all of it would be "ability-based". Even Flash's because his time travel is an ability granted to him by the Speed Force.

 

[Cyberblader90]

wasn't there a note on this in the cosmology thread?

 

[Cyberblader90]

User blog:GreatIskandar14045/Gurren Lagann High Complex Multiversal Cosmology | VS Battles Wiki | Fandom

second post

 

[Planck69]

I already posted them above. It's not just a statement; the Anti-Spiral has full, utter control of the Super Spiral Space's space-time. Which makes sense because it created the entire thing.

Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann did the same thing when it was formed because, as already mentioned above as well, it creates Super Spiral Space within itself every time it's formed.

Then this is just space-time manipulation.

Except, you know, it was the Ashtanga using Spiral Energy, and they were moving up and down the time axes as Lordgenome was tracking them. If that's not freely moving across linear time, then I don't know what is.

Also, it's not just range because Simon's own Spiral Energy, much like the Ashtanga themselves, allowed him to reach across the past, present, and future in order to break free of the Multiversal Labyrinth by forming Gurren Lagann, and then he traveled across said Labyrinth. Even if you somehow dismiss Immeasurable speed, the fact that Simon traveled from dimension to dimension in the Labyrinth as he set his teammates free from the Anti-Spiral's grip shows that he at least has Infinite speed.

This is range.

If these dimensions are infinite in size or he flies through infinite number of them, and through speed and not dimensional travel, then I can see Infinite speed.

Also, let's look at the wiki's definition of Immeasurable as well. Let me get it for you: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Speed




Note 6 was performed by Simon when he flew through multiple universes/dimensions inside the Labyrinth when he picked up Team Dai-Gurren to take them to where Nia and the Anti-Spiral were.

I have no clue how you got "can fly anywhere and anywhen in time as if it were space" from flying between universes.

Detailed here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3712650

Note 7 has this:

Which the Anti-Spiral did, also detailed in the link above.

Now, let's see what it has to say about Immeasurable speed itself:

Now, remind me what the Ashtanga were doing again? Right, using their Spiral Power, they used the Schrodinger's Warp to freely travel up and down the time axes. Lordgenome, once again, tracked them as they did so.

And why is this not time travel as opposed to speed?

https://forums.spacebattles.com/thr...lagann-feats-lore-calcs.869005/#post-70309466


Except the Flash example works because you're showing one type of standard for him and, somehow, another for Gurren Lagann despite feats already showed your way.

If we were to take your logic, no one would be Immeasurable speed because all of it would be "ability-based". Even Flash's because his time travel is an ability granted to him by the Speed Force.

What are you even on about here? I care little for Flash qualifying or not. I'm pointing out how "but X got it!" isn't an argument.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Then this is just space-time manipulation.

This is range.

If these dimensions are infinite in size or he flies through infinite number of them, and through speed and not dimensional travel, then I can see Infinite speed.

I have no clue how you got "can fly anywhere and anywhen in time as if it were space" from flying between universes.

And why is this not time travel as opposed to speed?

What are you even on about here? I care little for Flash qualifying or not. I'm pointing out how "but X got it!" isn't an argument.

I’m pretty sure Leeron said something about the universe being infinite in size

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

I'll reply later, kinda busy atm. And yeah I still yet to see Immeasurable speed.

 

[Planck69]

@Elizhaa @DMUA @JustSomeWeirdo @DarkDragonMedeus @DemonGodMitchAubin

Help in evaluation would be appreciated.