Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann Speed Revision

[GreatIskandar14045]

I’m pretty sure Leeron said something about the universe being infinite in size

He was refering to the Anti-Spiral universe, anyway I got to go.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We need a lot more evidence than that to prove Immeasurable; and TTGL used to be Immeasurable, but they got downgraded and it's probably going to be harder to upgrade them back based on new revisions for Immeasurable speed.

 

[Cyberblader90]

"[Possible space-time simultaneous firing][Special Move / Episode 26] A Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann's "Mega-Vortex Cannon" and "Maelstrom Cannon" is an all-gun attack that fires probability fluctuation bullets. Artor an immeasurable number of enemies in every space-time and dimensions from the near past to the near future."

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That appears to just be temporal Area of Effect rather than Immeasurable attack speed.

 

[BardicheAssault]

Then this is just space-time manipulation.

Really doubting your honesty here considering you don't bother gleaning through what I post.

This is range.

If these dimensions are infinite in size or he flies through infinite number of them, and through speed and not dimensional travel, then I can see Infinite speed.

Explain to me how this is range. Also, Simon breaks through the walls of these dimensions via flying using Gurren Lagann. So no, it's not dimensional travel. And the Multiversal Labyrinth keeps on expanding so yes, it's infinite.

Straight from Nakashima himself: https://mediag.bunka.go.jp/article/article-15013/

『ニンジャバットマン』はバットマンが戦国時代に飛ばされるといういわゆる「時間もの」です。日本のアニメだと、「過去を変えると現在が変わってしまう」という制約があって、時間もの、時間改変ものだとすごく慎重になる傾向があるように思います。そういうことを気にせず、思い切ってやっていますね。 中島：そこはアメコミなので。アメコミにはマルチバース、つまり宇宙がいっぱいあるという世界観の設定が読者にも浸透しています。そして今、時間改変ものはすなわち多元宇宙ものになるんですよね。あらゆる可能性の宇宙が全部あるってことだから、何をやっても「そっちの宇宙ね」となる（笑）。多元宇宙の解釈がこの何十年かでどっと進んで、僕らが子どものときは4次元止まりだったのが今では11次元とかって言われているじゃないですか。こちらは嘘をつくのが仕事なので、そういう理論を曲解して、面白い方に転がしていく。 そういえば『天元突破グレンラガン』（以下、『グレンラガン』）で、「観測されることによって存在する量子宇宙論」という話がありました。 中島：あの当時、宇宙論を調べると、しばらく読んでなかったからすごく進んでいることがわかりました。「観測されれば初めて確定される」という理論をいただいて、認識すればできる宇宙があるという設定にしました。

TRANSLATION:

"Ninja Batman" is a so-called "time thing" in which Batman is transported to the Warring States period. In Japanese anime, there's a restriction that if you change the past, the present will change, and I think people tend to be very cautious when it comes to time-altered anime. You don't worry about that kind of thing, and you go out on a limb.

Nakashima: That's because it's American comics. The world setting of the multiverse, or a world full of universes, permeates the readership of American comics. And now, the time-modifying stuff is going to be the multiverse stuff, right? There's a whole universe of all kinds of possibilities, so no matter what you do, you're like, "Oh, that universe!" (laughs). The interpretation of the multiverse has advanced so rapidly in the last few decades that when we were children, it was only 4-Dimensional, but now it is said to be 11-Dimensional. Our job is to tell lies, so we take those theories and twist them into something interesting.

Come to think of it, in "Gurren Lagann", there was a story about "quantum cosmology that exists by being observed".

Nakashima: When I looked up cosmology at that time, I hadn't read it for a while, so I found that it was very advanced. I was given the theory that the universe can be confirmed only if it is observed, and I set up the idea that there is a universe that can be created if we recognize it.

As we see when Kamina meets Yoko for the final time, she goes through several universes inside the Labyrinth before shutting of the TV and joining Simon.

Also, Gurren Lagann works on Brane cosmology. Brane dimensions are temporal. The Anti-Spiral transcends and controls them. Not to mention the novelization explicitly says that Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann itself is above dimensions and time.

I have no clue how you got "can fly anywhere and anywhen in time as if it were space" from flying between universes.

And why is this not time travel as opposed to speed?

Because he used his Core Drill/Spiral Power to manipulate the universes that contained versions of himself from the past, present, and future? And then he absorbed said versions of himself to form Gurren Lagann then break out of the Multiversal Labyrinth?

Did you actually read the excerpts that I've linked to several times already?

What are you even on about here? I care little for Flash qualifying or not. I'm pointing out how "but X got it!" isn't an argument.

Using an example of how standards vary from series to series instead of being the same across the board. Which is seeming more likely the further this thread progresses.

 

[BardicheAssault]

That appears to just be temporal Area of Effect rather than Immeasurable attack speed.

So... Locking on to them then shooting beams at them at several points in time, past, present, and future, is "temporal Area of Effect"? What does that even mean? The attack literally punches holes through space and time to hit the Ashtanga.

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

The funny part is, I know most of the scans above including its context since most of the translations you were sending were translated by me. Even STTGL/Galo De Lion used my translation so I expect no word from you to say "you ignore the context!" if can, please. Anyway I'm writing right now.

 

[Planck69]

I'll just get this out of the way;

• Transcending time isn't Immeasurable. It can be used to support an already Immeasurable speed feat but isn't enough reasoning on its own.
• Manipulating universes across time isn't Immeasurable speed, it's range.
• Please stop accusing people of not reading through scans whenever they don't agree with you.
• Punching through space and time isn't a speed feat. And temporal AoE is a thing, it's how timeline destruction works.

 

[BardicheAssault]

The funny part is, I know most of the scans above including its context since most of the translations you were sending were translated by me. Even STTGL/Galo De Lion used my translation so I expect no word from you to say "you ignore the context!" if can, please. Anyway I'm writing right now.

Oh, really? Does that involve the novelization scans and the script?

Thing is, they’re not your content. It’s not mine nor is it Galo De Lion’s either. You can’t claim authorial intent on them, especially when your own scans say the opposite of what you’re spouting right now.

 

[TheShieldToronto76]

TBF it’s so weird to have a High Conplex Multi being this slow even slower then Archie Sonic

 

[BluudyManikin777]

TBF it’s so weird to have a High Conplex Multi being this slow even slower then Archie Sonic

It’s not really weird tbh, it makes sense that Immeasurable’s have to move beyond time

 

[Planck69]

You can be 1-A and Subsonic nowadays.

 

[BardicheAssault]

TBF it’s so weird to have a High Conplex Multi being this slow even slower then Archie Sonic

Because it’s being downplayed. Fiercely too.

Spiral Space on its own destroys whatever arguments they have because the cast moves through it as if it were second nature to them.

Again, Spiral Space works on Brane cosmology. Brane dimensions are temporal.

TTGL itself is made of Spiral Space.

It’s a little game of connect the dots, really.

 

[TheShieldToronto76]

I seem to side with the OP for now

 

[Planck69]

Moving through irregular space-time also isn't Immeasurable speed, not without very explicit supporting evidence.

Seriously, we had this discussion months back with a lot more input from knowledgeable members and scans being used and the downgrade still went through. That should say a lot about how this thread will go.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Yeah, I disagree with the upgrade

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

And you’re absolutely wrong on all counts. You're making assumptions where there are none; making up "context" not supported by the series itself.

You really have guts on saying "absolutely wrong on all counts", but let's see.

Them transcending time itself already gives them acausality by default.

We evaluate "transcending" word case by case, it's not that simple, they are acausal but via different reasonings.

Let's recap some feats supporting infinite to immeasurable speed, shall we?

• Simon perceives and merges with all possible versions of himself in the Multiverse, past, present and future; this is how he broke out of the Anti-Spiral's Labyrinth.

Sure, that's where the type 2 acausality came from.

• Related to the above point, Simon merges together all possible Gurren Laganns in the Multiverse to create Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, as well as all the thoughts and emotions of Team Dai-Gurren from within the Labyrinth.

Sure.

• After merging with all possible versions of himself, Simon escapes the Multiversal Labyrinth and rescues the other members of Team Dai-Gurren, crashing through universe after universe; this is more infinite speed, really, but the point is they're beyond Massively FTL+.

What the hell, no, that's not Infinite speed unless you can provide evidence that he moves through all infinite universes at once rather than few universes to save his comrades from the influences of the Multiverse Labyrinth, otherwise, it's just physical dimensional travel.

• The Anti-Spiral transcend time and space and can control dimensions and probability to their will; in their own dimension, they control the very flow of time, with it only flowing when they detect an enemy to defeat in it.

That's correct, but nothing related to speed, that's just time and probability manipulations in extra dimensional universe range.

• The Ashtanga is capable of leaving realspace and entering probability space, existing in a schrodinger state in countless places multiple different places across time and dimensions at once; this requires no prep, just entering a portal; the Vriska-class which appears in the novelization is also capable of doing this. Considering the nature of Spiral Power, there is no outside tech helping the Ashtanga out with this; this is pure Spiral Power which is the main energy source for this series.

That's again correct, but the problem is they did it via hax and abilities; the Schroedinger Warp, not via sheer speed alone.

• Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann's Mega Maelstrom Vortex Cannon targets all possible points in local space and time across different dimensions.

Same as the premise, it is hax, not via sheer speed.

• Perceptual teleportation involves teleporting to any location in space and time that has been previously observed; the Super Spiral Scanner can pick up anything observed just once by sweeping for it across both space and time throughout dimensions. The Anti-Spiral messed with the Super Spiral Scanner by making Super Galaxy Dai-Gurren end up in a spot where they could get ambushed by the Ashtanga.

Eh, okay?

• Arc Gurren Lagann punches the last Mugann across the space-time continuum and into another dimension

Eh, okay?

• The Anti-Spiral homeworld is seperated from the rest of the space-time continuum, and contains it's own timeflow

Like I said, this doesn't help anything, that's just time manipulation and acausality.

A lot of these have been covered by previous posts detailing additional information found in the official artbooks, the show's script, and the series' novelization.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3712621
https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3712650

But none of them proves that they are Immeasurable though.

Whether you're comfortable or not is irrelevant; feats are feats.

1-B TTGL? Sure, but you have to provide more evidences to prove that they are superior in uncountably infinite degree than the entire brane cosmology, "transcending time and space" alone is nowhere enough.

They created the Super Spiral Space where the final battle took place in; TTGL also recreated it within itself when it was formed.

This is nowhere related to speed, really?

Everything that the Anti-Spiral created, from the Multiversal Labyrinth to the Super Spiral Space, all disappeared when Simon defeated them. To "use [the multiverse] merely as a tool to trap people's consciousness" takes away from the Anti-Spiral's influence how? Because, again, they completely control everything and as one of the novel excerpts show, time legitimately doesn't flow in their multiverse until they sense an enemy; only then will they allow time to flow once more. This isn't even time stop; this is full control over time.

No, the Anti-Spiral never created the Multiverse Labyrinth, the Multiverse Labyrinth to be frankly is just the name of technique, it isn't an independent multiverse or something like this, it takes place on the already existing multiverse that branched out naturally since the beginning which the Anti-Spiral are just happen to able to control its flows and probabilities, replicating the universes infinitely via perception through the quantum cosmology via said technique. No source even suggest that they created a multiverse from scratch. Nor the Super Spiral Universe, it had nothing to do with the Anti-Spiral, Anti-Spiral's universe isn't the Super Spiral Universe, the guidebook had strictly refers it as "isolated universe", "pocket universe", or even "hidden universe", the Super Spiral Universe is just a compressed spacetime within TTGL which was created via merging all possibilities from the Team-Dai Gurren through the stratification of the multiverse. Besides, this doesn't help any Immeasurable argument at all, the full control is just a time manipulation on greater extend.

And yet that's what it's showing in the series itself. What's so silly about it? By that point in time, Lordgenome's hooked up as the Cathedral Terra's/Super Galaxy Dai-Gurren's supercomputer. That the Anti-Spiral more-or-less confirmed all of Lordgenome's information later on when they talk on Super Galaxy Dai-Gurren's bridge is just icing on the cake.

Once again, the Anti-Spiral has superior senses to Lordgenome.

Lordgenome didn't lock the Ashtangas by himself, he used the Spiral scan to detect the Ashtangas in the probability space, then use the Mega Maelstorm Vortex Cannon to fire, which has been addressed in the context capable to artor all observed places all at once, everywhen or everywhere, An object that has been observed at one time can be picked on Spiral scan. With a fixed set of perceptual dimensional coordinates, instantaneous teleportation is possible, that's how Mega Maelstorm Vortex Cannon works similarly to perceptual teleportation from SGDG, except it's offensive, it locks the Ashtangas by establishing their coordinates on Spiral scan not by Lordgenome's reaction speed, although Immeasurable speed Lordgenome is already nonsensical in many, many levels.

You do realize that the final battle was broadcasted because a hole got opened from the Anti-Spiral's multiverse to Simon's world, right? They were outright going to reach out for Earth with no issues before Dayakka used his "I Have The Best Wife in the Universe!" Swing to keep them away.

Anti-Spiral's universe*, but that still doesn't change the fact that the fight takes in real time on earth, the spatio-temporal rip they created, allowing humans to see the battle did not suddenly enable them to see the fight at immeasurable speed.

Their "own universe" is, for all intents and purposes, a full-on legitimate multiverse as well inside the Super Spiral Space. Not to mention that Simon fused with all versions of himself across the multiverse, past, present, and future, as detailed in the series' script and novelization.

Anti-Spiral's universe*, Simon fused all versions of himself across the multiverse is acausality feat, which indicates he only exist in present, breaking through the cause-effect and fate, not Immeasurable speed feat.

I mean no offense but you can't just ignore that simply because you don't like it.

Eh, sure?

The fact that Simon's Spiral Power reached across the past, present, and future and he merged with all of them in order to break out of the Anti-Spiral's Multiversal Labyrinth? The fact that despite that, the Anti-Spiral was still overpowering him and the entirety of Team Dai-Gurren until they got their second wind when they saw the Earth being in immediate danger? The fact that even after said second wind, the fight only finally because even when they absorbed the power of the Infinity Big Bang Storm?

I don't know about you, but that first point seems to indicate Immeasurable speed, and the fact that the Anti-Spiral can still blitz Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann during the final battle just supplements that the AS is that fast as well.

Not if they aren't Immeasurable at the first place, though.

Punching a hole through time and space is hax by its very nature, so yes, the Mega Vortex Maelstrom Cannon is hax for being able to do just that. However, Lordgenome sensed the Ashtanga moving along the time axes in real time to calibrate the MVMC's targeting.

That still, at minimum, requires Immeasurable reaction speed.

Already refuted that.

So, Simon's Spiral Energy legit traveling across the past, present, and future to absorb versions of himself across the multiverse in order to break out of the Multiversal Labyrinth means nothing to anyone here.

It is a range feat, you can argue his Spiral power can flies across time, sure, but that doesn't scale to his physical attribute, nor combat speed.

The energy source that allowed the time travel to begin with is Spiral Energy. This is like you guys dismissing Flash being Immeasurable despite the energy source allowing him to time travel via speed being the Speed Force.

That false equivalence, Flash consistently uses the Speed Force to amplifies his combat speed, his physical speed, and his sheer speed. It is not about "source", it is about how to use it.

So, do tell me, how does "transcending time" not amount to Immeasurable speed anymore? Last I checked, transcending time means being unbound by it. Which we can see due to Spiral Energy allowing them to time travel on a whim. Seriously, all they do is tear a hole through space-time with Spiral Energy in order to travel along the time axes.

Their attacks are performed by Spiral Energy and the Anti-Spiral's superior to them. What part of that do none of you get?

Give scan where they transcends time in higher dimensional sense, then I'll agree with you.

I'll ignore the rest since you're just repeating stuffs.

 

[Planck69]

Agree: MikeBro25

Disagree: DarkDragonMedeus, Planck69, GreatIskandar14045, BluudyManikin777, Emirp Sumitpo

Neutral:

Lemme know if I missed anyone.

 

[Worthless]

I agree. And the site didn't specifically say hax isn't counted as a speed. It doesn't need to be sheer speed. as long as it move/travel and met the standard for infinite or immeasurable, then that's it.

This like saying accelerating yourself faster than instantaneous via hax is also not counted as a speed even tho you use that skill for movement and it travel. Or spaceship is also not counted as a speed even tho that ship, is so fast that it can crossed an infinite space in an instant

 

[Worthless]

Also aren't perceiving past, present and future is immeasurable in reaction? Like This

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

I agree. And the site didn't specifically say hax isn't counted as a speed. It doesn't need to be sheer speed. as long as it move/travel and met the standard for infinite or immeasurable, then that's it.

This like saying accelerating yourself faster than instantaneous via hax is also not counted as a speed even tho you use that skill for movement. Or spaceship is also isn't counted as a speed even tho that ship, is so fast that it can crossed an infinite space in an instant

Accelerating yourself to certain speed is counted, it'd be rated as "Immeasurable via name of hax".

But in TTGL context? No, at non iste. None of the context are remotely close to that.

 

[Emirp sumitpo]

You can be 1-A and Subsonic nowadays.

Can we get an F for automatic irrelevant?

 

[BardicheAssault]

Accelerating yourself to certain speed is counted, it'd be rated as "Immeasurable via name of hax".

But in TTGL context? No, at non iste. None of the context are remotely close to that.

But none of them proves that they are Immeasurable though.

Oh, really?
It’s more than enough for other series. Infact, why don’t we take a look at all the other series?

Akasha being omnipresent in it’s domain (just like the Anti-Spiral) and being able to attack or warp anything past, present or future (just like Simon, Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann and the Ashtanga). More than enough to be immeasurable.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Akashic_Records

Speed: Omnipresent within its domain, Immensurable when being used (Can attack or warp anything in past, present or future)

BB sees all things past, present and future at once, this gives her immeasurable reactions. Somehow this same thing is not enough for Simon or the Anti-Spiral. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/BB_(Fate/Extra_CCC)

Speed: Nigh-Omnipresent throughout space-time (Exists in past, present, and future simultaneously and can view and appear across space-time as if it were a book, absorbed the data of Tiamat, who also exists across space-time), Massively FTL+ otherwise (Comparable to Hakuno's servants) with Immeasurable reactions (Processes the world at a 4 dimensional level, seeing and experiencing every facet of the 3 dimensional world, across the past, present and future, as one and the same, as if it was a book)

Mr Mxy transcends time (just like the Anti-Spiral), freely moves through time (just like the Ashtanga and Perceptual Teleportation) and views all pasts, presents and futures simultaneously (just like Simon).
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Mister_Mxyzptlk

Speed: Immeasurable (Exists beyond time. 5D Imps can freely move through time and Hypertime. Perceives all past, present and future across all universes simultaneously)

The Goddess of Dawn is unbound by time, which is enough to make her immeasurable. However, the Anti-Spiral being unbound by time isn’t nearly enough.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Goddess_of_Dawn

Speed: Immeasurable (Is a higher existence unbound by both time and space)

Infact, all that’s required of her to be immeasurable here is that she is unbound by time and space and comes from a higher level of existence. I wonder where I’ve heard that before?
https://gyazo.com/c2ed4debe43f4235acd8f4b466473a5e
https://gyazo.com/82e832041e7c8ea94c8af6799fff0261


Yosuke Hanamura having immeasurable speed only requires fighting an Archtype, which transcends time and space

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Yosuke_Hanamura

Speed: Immeasurable (Capable of keeping up with the most basic Archetype, the Shadow, a physical representation of the Collective Unconscious, which transcends space and time), higher with Willpower

But let’s look at the evidence supplied itself supplied on the page.

https://i.imgur.com/8tmCSwF_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=mediu

There’s nothing about traveling across infinite space and time, sensing the target in multiple places at once, all that’s needed to warrant the immeasurable rating is to exist outside of time and space. Which the Anti-Spiral also does, with far more feats to back it up.

God from Image is immeasurable as angels can transport characters, but somehow Perceptual Teleportation and the Anti-Spiral interacting with this Perceptual Teleportation is something completely different.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/God_(Image_Comics)

Speed: Immeasurable (Far superior to all angels, including the one that can transports Abidiel to heaven within 3 Dimensional seconds, which is a non linear time measurement)

Spoiler

I could go on, and will if I have to. For now you’ve got a long road ahead of you explaining why transcending time and perceiving and interacting with the past, present and future, existing in higher realms to time and perceiving and interacting with entities travelling through time is not enough for Gurren Lagann to be immeasurable, but perfectly acceptable for countless other series to be immeasurable, with far less evidence.

You really have guts on saying "absolutely wrong on all counts", but let's see.


We evaluate "transcending" word case by case, it's not that simple, they are acausal but via different reasonings.


Sure, that's where the type 2 acausality came from.


Sure.

Yet your "evaluation" is a load of crap because, again, you simply ignored everything I posted. You say that you translated most of those scans yet Japanese is so easy to mistranslate. You claim that you understand yet you can't handle the fact that your own scans says the opposite of what you're spouting. Miss me with that.

What the hell, no, that's not Infinite speed unless you can provide evidence that he moves through all infinite universes at once rather than few universes to save his comrades from the influences of the Multiverse Labyrinth, otherwise, it's just physical dimensional travel.

The Anti-Spiral dimension is located at the ends of the Multiverse, in a dimension separated from the rest of the cosmos.

https://www.gurren-lagann.net/tv/news/index.html

あまたの犠牲を払い、アンチスパイラルの罠を破ったシモンたち大グレン団。多元宇宙の果てで始まる、螺旋族と反螺旋族の最終決戦！シモンは愛するニアを取り戻し、地球を守ることができるのか…？！

TRANSLATION:

Simon and Dai-Gurren have defeated the trap of the Anti-Spirals with many sacrifices.
The final battle between the Spirals and the Anti-Spiral begins at the edge of the multiverse!
Will Simon be able to reclaim his beloved Nia and protect the Earth...?

Reaching it would require flying beyond all of the infinite branching universes the Anti-Spiral were overlooking. Which they do. Fly through the universes and beyond them. We even see this when Simon escapes the Labyrinth in the movie.

That's correct, but nothing related to speed, that's just time and probability manipulations in extra dimensional universe range.

Except the Anti-Spiral are omnipresent in their own dimension where the flow of time is meaningless to them to the point they exist without it. How would a being who’s preference is freezing time when it’s not needed be bound be linear time?

That's again correct, but the problem is they did it via hax and abilities; the Schroedinger Warp, not via sheer speed alone.

Same as the premise, it is hax, not via sheer speed.

And, again, by your hilariously dumb logic, no one would be Immeasurable in speed since everything is via "abilities". Do you not see how ridiculous this sounds? No? Then that's your problem, not mine.

Eh, okay?

This means that the Anti-Spiral are capable of affecting something directly in the process of moving across time itself.

Eh, okay?

This directly involves moving an object across time, space and dimensions through attacks alone, no special hax is involved, to further back up the feats from later in the series.

Like I said, this doesn't help anything, that's just time manipulation and acausality.

Evidence I posted says otherwise but please, do keep stonewalling.

1-B TTGL? Sure, but you have to provide more evidences to prove that they are superior in uncountably infinite degree than the entire brane cosmology, "transcending time and space" alone is nowhere enough.

Super Spiral Space uses Brane cosmology, and Simon and the rest of Team Dai-Gurren travels through it after breaking through the Multiversal Labyrinth (which is also located inside Super Spiral Space). The Anti-Spiral created Super Spiral Space.

The entire place disappeared after the Anti-Spiral died.

Maybe use that last half a brain cell of yours for critical thinking next time instead of kneejerk reactions.

This is nowhere related to speed, really?

Creating the Super Spiral Space requires merging all possible Gurren Laganns (and more, given the novelization) past, present and future together into a virtual quantum entity that transcends time and dimensions, then returning everything to their original points in the Multiverse afterwards. If this is just range, then how are BB, Akasha and others immeasurable from this exact same thing?

No, the Anti-Spiral never created the Multiverse Labyrinth, the Multiverse Labyrinth to be frankly is just the name of technique, it isn't an independent multiverse or something like this, it takes place on the already existing multiverse that branched out naturally since the beginning which the Anti-Spiral are just happen to able to control its flows and probabilities, replicating the universes infinitely via perception through the quantum cosmology via said technique. No source even suggest that they created a multiverse from scratch. Nor the Super Spiral Universe, it had nothing to do with the Anti-Spiral, Anti-Spiral's universe isn't the Super Spiral Universe, the guidebook had strictly refers it as "isolated universe", "pocket universe", or even "hidden universe", the Super Spiral Universe is just a compressed spacetime within TTGL which was created via merging all possibilities from the Team-Dai Gurren through the stratification of the multiverse. Besides, this doesn't help any Immeasurable argument at all, the full control is just a time manipulation on greater extend.

Yes, they created it. Everything they created disappeared when they died. That includes Super Spiral Space and the Labyrinth. The fact that you think this is just the name of a technique shows how dumb you are considering supplementary material outright calls it a MULTIVERSAL LABYRINTH.

Hell, I'll even post Nakashima's interview here again: https://mediag.bunka.go.jp/article/article-15013/

ニンジャバットマン』はバットマンが戦国時代に飛ばされるといういわゆる「時間もの」です。日本のアニメだと、「過去を変えると現在が変わってしまう」という制約があって、時間もの、時間改変ものだとすごく慎重になる傾向があるように思います。そういうことを気にせず、思い切ってやっていますね。 中島：そこはアメコミなので。アメコミにはマルチバース、つまり宇宙がいっぱいあるという世界観の設定が読者にも浸透しています。そして今、時間改変ものはすなわち多元宇宙ものになるんですよね。あらゆる可能性の宇宙が全部あるってことだから、何をやっても「そっちの宇宙ね」となる（笑）。多元宇宙の解釈がこの何十年かでどっと進んで、僕らが子どものときは4次元止まりだったのが今では11次元とかって言われているじゃないですか。こちらは嘘をつくのが仕事なので、そういう理論を曲解して、面白い方に転がしていく。 そういえば『天元突破グレンラガン』（以下、『グレンラガン』）で、「観測されることによって存在する量子宇宙論」という話がありました。 中島：あの当時、宇宙論を調べると、しばらく読んでなかったからすごく進んでいることがわかりました。「観測されれば初めて確定される」という理論をいただいて、認識すればできる宇宙があるという設定にしました。

TRANSLATION:

"Ninja Batman" is a so-called "time thing" in which Batman is transported to the Warring States period. In Japanese anime, there's a restriction that if you change the past, the present will change, and I think people tend to be very cautious when it comes to time-altered anime. You don't worry about that kind of thing, and you go out on a limb.

Nakashima: That's because it's American comics. The world setting of the multiverse, or a world full of universes, permeates the readership of American comics. And now, the time-modifying stuff is going to be the multiverse stuff, right? There's a whole universe of all kinds of possibilities, so no matter what you do, you're like, "Oh, that universe!" (laughs). The interpretation of the multiverse has advanced so rapidly in the last few decades that when we were children, it was only 4-Dimensional, but now it is said to be 11-Dimensional. Our job is to tell lies, so we take those theories and twist them into something interesting.

Come to think of it, in "Gurren Lagann", there was a story about "quantum cosmology that exists by being observed".

Nakashima: When I looked up cosmology at that time, I hadn't read it for a while, so I found that it was very advanced. I was given the theory that the universe can be confirmed only if it is observed, and I set up the idea that there is a universe that can be created if we recognize it."

That's one of the basis for the Multiversal Labyrinth. It's not a technique, it's legitimately trapping them in a multiverse that they can't escape from because their own desires are used against them.

And the end of Episode 26 as well as the movie shows how many different universes/possibilities there are in the past, present, and future. Simon merges with all of those in order to break out of the Labyrinth.

Again, for someone that scanned material for this series, you seem to not actually read through them.

Lordgenome didn't lock the Ashtangas by himself, he used the Spiral scan to detect the Ashtangas in the probability space, then use the Mega Maelstorm Vortex Cannon to fire, which has been addressed in the context capable to artor all observed places all at once, everywhen or everywhere, An object that has been observed at one time can be picked on Spiral scan. With a fixed set of perceptual dimensional coordinates, instantaneous teleportation is possible, that's how Mega Maelstorm Vortex Cannon works similarly to perceptual teleportation from SGDG, except it's offensive, it locks the Ashtangas by establishing their coordinates on Spiral scan not by Lordgenome's reaction speed, although Immeasurable speed Lordgenome is already nonsensical in many, many levels.

LordGenome is the bio-computer, so he’d be the one locking onto the Ashtanga and he’d be the one sensing them. Did you miss that little tidbit in the show itself when Rossiu resurrected him and hooked him up to Cathedral Terra?

Anti-Spiral's universe*, but that still doesn't change the fact that the fight takes in real time on earth, the spatio-temporal rip they created, allowing humans to see the battle did not suddenly enable them to see the fight at immeasurable speed.

Let's try that again, this time with the novel:
http://www.style.fm/as/13_special/mini_080404a.shtml

地上でみんなが銀河規模の戦いを見ているというのが、いかにもGAINAX作品らしいスケール感でしたね。 今石　あ、そうですか？　シナリオ会議の時には失笑を買ったんですけど（笑）。「とりあえずリアルタイムで見えていてほしい」と言ったら、中島さんに「いくらなんでもそれはありえない！」って言われて。だから劇中では一応、時空がねじ曲がって、映像が投影されているというかたちにしてるんですけど、僕としてはあれはリアルタイムで、生で見えててほしかったんです。「あそこの銀河で戦ってるよ！」みたいな。 ──　ああ、デカすぎて見えるという（笑）。 今石　そうそう。デカいから見えるってどうですかね？　って訊いたら、さすがにダメだった。 ──　しかもどこにある銀河だって話ですよね。 大塚　見えるのに何万年もかかっちゃう。 今石　まあ、そりゃそうだと思うんですけどね。でも、その頃になると中島さんがきっと別の理屈を見つけてくれる！　と期待してたから（笑）。「多分こういう事を言うと、中島さんが画は変えない方向で上手い事を考えてくれるぞ」と思いながら、口には出さず。

TRANSLATION:

The fact that everyone on the ground was watching a galactic battle on a galactic scale gave a sense of scale that was very much like a GAINAX work.

Imaishi: Oh, is that so? I got a good laugh at the scenario meeting (laughs). When I said, "I want you to be able to see it in real time," Nakashima said, "That's not possible! He told me.

So in the play, the space-time is twisted and the image is projected, but I wanted it to be seen live, in real time. They're fighting in that galaxy over there! like that. Yeah, it's too big to see (laughs).

Imaishi: Yes, that's right. What do you think about being able to see it because it's so big? When I asked him about it, he said no. What's more, you're talking about where the galaxy is. Otsuka: It would take tens of thousands of years to see them.

Imaishi: Well, I think that's true. But by that time, I'm sure Nakashima-san will have found another reason for it! (laughs) because I was expecting it. I didn't say anything, thinking, "Maybe if I say something like this, Mr. Nakashima will come up with something good that doesn't change the picture."

Space is warped. Time is bendable. Earth being able to see the battle in real-time was for their benefit because the battle was projected.

Anti-Spiral's universe*, Simon fused all versions of himself across the multiverse is acausality feat, which indicates he only exist in present, breaking through the cause-effect and fate, not Immeasurable speed feat.

Thanks for not reading it. He literally breaks through the walls of the Multiverse and his Spiral Power reaches throughout the past, present, and future. Acausality is one effect of being Immeasurable so you just proved that you can't connect the dots.

Eh, sure?

Denial isn't merely a river in Egypt.

Not if they aren't Immeasurable at the first place, though.

Simon can reach out across all of time and fly across the infinite Multiverse to a dimension outside time to a planet with its own timeflow, but somehow this is not immeasurable.

Already refuted that.

You did?
https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3712835
https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3712877
https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3712889
https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3714924
https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3714926
https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3715000
https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3715115
Nowhere in any of your previous posts did you once refute (or even make reference to) punching a hole through space and time, or how it’s not a speed feat. You’re only response was “eh, okay?” which in itself means nothing, and is, in fact, a concession of a lack of argument. And again, Lordgenome himself is the bio-computer, he himself would have to sense them.

It is a range feat, you can argue his Spiral power can flies across time, sure, but that doesn't scale to his physical attribute, nor combat speed.

He generates his Spiral Power. His Spiral Power is his energy source and powers him up; it's what allowed him to take on the Anti-Spiral in hand-to-hand combat at the end of the second movie.

But sure, keep ignoring that. By your logic, Dragon Ball is not MFTL+ because it's their beams that usually travel at high speeds, not them.

That false equivalence, Flash consistently uses the Speed Force to amplifies his combat speed, his physical speed, and his sheer speed. It is not about "source", it is about how to use it.

Oh? Let's check out how many more examples of "false equivalance" there are in the wiki:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/BB_(Fate/Extra_CCC)

Speed: Nigh-Omnipresent throughout space-time (Exists in past, present, and future simultaneously and can view and appear across space-time as if it were a book, absorbed the data of Tiamat, who also exists across space-time), Massively FTL+ otherwise (Comparable to Hakuno's servants) with Immeasurable reactions (Processes the world at a 4 dimensional level, seeing and experiencing every facet of the 3 dimensional world, across the past, present and future, as one and the same, as if it was a book)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Akashic_Records

Speed: Omnipresent within its domain, Immensurable when being used (Can attack or warp anything in past, present or future)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Mister_Mxyzptlk

Speed: Immeasurable (Exists beyond time. 5D Imps can freely move through time and Hypertime. Perceives all past, present and future across all universes simultaneously)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Vivec

Speed: Immeasurable (Even in a vastly weakened state, Vivec is completely transcendent over the concept of linear time, existing both outside and beyond it. Perceives the past, present and future simultaneously. Took the Nerevarine outside of time, and is capable of leaving time altogether at will) | Immeasurable (Exists beyond linear time across the whole Multiverse of Mundus) | Irrelevant (Fully Transcendent over Dualism and the Concepts of Space and Time across the entirety of existence), Omnipresent across the Aurbis (Upon perceiving the Wheel of the Aurbis "sideways" as the Tower, The Eternal I, Vivec became one with the whole of the Tower as Individuality is illusory and all is merely the Dream of the Godhead, but was able to maintain his sense of Self through CHIM, simultaneously existing as one with everything but also as an Individual Being)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/MIKE

Speed: Unknown in a physical host. Relativistic+ Travel and Attack Speed to Immeasurable in Spiritual Form | Irrelevant (Persists in the Black Lodge, a realm of nonexistence beyond space and time. Can manifest in higher layers of existence where reality itself is seen as fictional)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Alduin

Speed: Immeasurable (Is unbound by the concept of linear time and exists outside of it, living in the spaces between Kalpas. Unaffected by Dragon Breaks. Capable of literally flying through the currents of time, and traveling from Nirn to Sovngarde with sheer speed)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Alternity

Speed: Immeasurable (Exist beyond linear time and can move wherever and whenever throughout time and the multiverse)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Zagreus_(Doctor_Who)

Speed: Immeasurable (Should be faster than Chronovores and similar beings who can move and transcend space-time, while not directly demonstrated)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Nicol_Bolas

Speed: Unknown (Orders of magnitude superior to most other current planeswalkers) | Likely Immeasurable (Able to exist outside the normal planes of the multiverse, having to willingly restrict himself in order to manifest within such a lower reality. Unaffected by changes to the timestream on a multiversal scale and Teferi's time manipulation)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Goddess_of_Dawn

Speed: Immeasurable (Is a higher existence unbound by both time and space)

https://gyazo.com/82e832041e7c8ea94c8af6799fff0261
https://gyazo.com/c2ed4debe43f4235acd8f4b466473a5e


https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Nobody_(BlazBlue)

Speed: Immeasurable (Embryo's are capable of traversing the boundary with relative ease, as shown with Es in Xblaze, allowing them to move through time, and people that are able to move through time when they go through the boundary are stated to transcend time and space) | Immeasurable (Faster than before)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Lilith_(World_of_Darkness)

Speed: Immeasurable (Greatest of the Mages, who are able to travel in a Void outside time, space and existence, able to react to Demons) | Immeasurable, possibly Irrelevant | Irrelevant

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Yosuke_Hanamura

Speed: Immeasurable (Capable of keeping up with the most basic Archetype, the Shadow, a physical representation of the Collective Unconscious, which transcends space and time), higher with Willpower

https://i.imgur.com/8tmCSwF_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=mediu

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Grandfather_Spider

Speed: Immeasurable (Caused and continued to fight when time was going in and out of its linear flow. Superior to Mellori and comparable to The Player who and could hold his own against The Storm Titan) | Immeasurable (While mortals perceive time in a linear sense, Spider exists beyond the Wheel of Existence, which itself views linear time as an illusion and is unbound by it)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Solaris

Speed: Immeasurable (Is a higher-dimensional being that is beyond linear time, as it simultaneously exists in the past, present, and future. Was also collapsing and consuming all of time, merging past, present and future into one single void, and could still move and perfectly function in such a state)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/God_(Image_Comics)

Speed: Immeasurable (Far superior to all angels, including the one that can transports Abidiel to heaven within 3 Dimensional seconds, which is a non linear time measurement)

Give scan where they transcends time in higher dimensional sense, then I'll agree with you.

Sure. Easy enough.

TRANSLATION:

Nia enters the cockpit of Gurren Lagann with Simon.
Each Lagann merged into Gurren Lagann.
It was anger. It was sadness. It was compassion. It was every emotion one could think of.
The feelings that each of us had in our respective universes appeared in the form of a drill, breaking through the wall.
It was appearing in the form of two shapes and sizes, and they became one.
If you have no choice but to fight, do not hesitate. We are not afraid to ask for power.
If there's a wall, we'll hit and break it, if there's no way, we'll make it with our own hands!
-No, more.
Breaks through cause, effect and fate, scream cry of life resounds in the galaxy!
-Still, more. Engrave the feelings of a friend in this body, and turn infinite darkness into light!
-That's it.
Greater power than stars and galaxies. Greater power than dimensions and time.

This isn't just "acausality" despite you trying so desperately hard to handwave it as such.

For someone who's a supposed "fan" of this series, you sure don't understand how it works.

I'll ignore the rest since you're just repeating stuffs.

Translation: You can't refute any of them. Thanks for the roundabout admittance.

 

[TheShieldToronto76]

I 100% more agree with this comment

 

[The_Pink_God]

Everything seems to make sense
I agree

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

Oh, really?
It’s more than enough for other series. Infact, why don’t we take a look at all the other series?

Akasha being omnipresent in it’s domain (just like the Anti-Spiral) and being able to attack or warp anything past, present or future (just like Simon, Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann and the Ashtanga). More than enough to be immeasurable.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Akashic_Records


BB sees all things past, present and future at once, this gives her immeasurable reactions. Somehow this same thing is not enough for Simon or the Anti-Spiral. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/BB_(Fate/Extra_CCC)


Mr Mxy transcends time (just like the Anti-Spiral), freely moves through time (just like the Ashtanga and Perceptual Teleportation) and views all pasts, presents and futures simultaneously (just like Simon).
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Mister_Mxyzptlk


The Goddess of Dawn is unbound by time, which is enough to make her immeasurable. However, the Anti-Spiral being unbound by time isn’t nearly enough.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Goddess_of_Dawn


Infact, all that’s required of her to be immeasurable here is that she is unbound by time and space and comes from a higher level of existence. I wonder where I’ve heard that before?
https://gyazo.com/c2ed4debe43f4235acd8f4b466473a5e
https://gyazo.com/82e832041e7c8ea94c8af6799fff0261


Yosuke Hanamura having immeasurable speed only requires fighting an Archtype, which transcends time and space

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Yosuke_Hanamura


But let’s look at the evidence supplied itself supplied on the page.

https://i.imgur.com/8tmCSwF_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=mediu

There’s nothing about traveling across infinite space and time, sensing the target in multiple places at once, all that’s needed to warrant the immeasurable rating is to exist outside of time and space. Which the Anti-Spiral also does, with far more feats to back it up.

God from Image is immeasurable as angels can transport characters, but somehow Perceptual Teleportation and the Anti-Spiral interacting with this Perceptual Teleportation is something completely different.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/God_(Image_Comics)

Spoiler

I could go on, and will if I have to. For now you’ve got a long road ahead of you explaining why transcending time and perceiving and interacting with the past, present and future, existing in higher realms to time and perceiving and interacting with entities travelling through time is not enough for Gurren Lagann to be immeasurable, but perfectly acceptable for countless other series to be immeasurable, with far less evidence.

You can't... just use the other profiles' justifications to compare to what we have right now since we evaluate bunches of stuffs with similar circumstances case by case, context, context, context.

Immeasurable via "transcending time and space" is mostly only applicable to 1-dimensional transcendence on the matter of trivializing the whole time dimension as meaningless in uncountably infinite difference, something you haven't prove yet.

Yet your "evaluation" is a load of crap because, again, you simply ignored everything I posted. You say that you translated most of those scans yet Japanese is so easy to mistranslate. You claim that you understand yet you can't handle the fact that your own scans says the opposite of what you're spouting. Miss me with that.

Care to quote where the scans says the opposite then, please? It sounds more like my "evaluation" is crap cuz I have different interpretation than yours, I know the context, I know everything you've posted, but most of them are not even related to speed.

The Anti-Spiral dimension is located at the ends of the Multiverse, in a dimension separated from the rest of the cosmos.

This is all wrong, the Anti-Spiral's dimension is located between two membranes of universes, manifolding between them as an imaginary space, it is called as "the ends of the multiverse" solely because it relies at the highest brane layers, the 11th dimension, but ultimately is still included within the multiverse or "the cosmos".

https://www.gurren-lagann.net/tv/news/index.html


TRANSLATION:


Reaching it would require flying beyond all of the infinite branching universes the Anti-Spiral were overlooking. Which they do. Fly through the universes and beyond them. We even see this when Simon escapes the Labyrinth in the movie.

Except that their universe does not lie above the multiverse.

Except the Anti-Spiral are omnipresent in their own dimension where the flow of time is meaningless to them to the point they exist without it. How would a being who’s preference is freezing time when it’s not needed be bound be linear time?

Tell me a reason why an omnipresent guy with higher degree of time manipulation, and immunity to time manipulation couldn't do that without achieving Immeasurable speed.

And, again, by your hilariously dumb logic, no one would be Immeasurable in speed since everything is via "abilities". Do you not see how ridiculous this sounds? No? Then that's your problem, not mine.

It is case by case, accelerating your sheer speed via abilities counts.

But like I said not here, at non iste.

Schroedinger Warp in function jumps the Ashtangas randomly across the time-axis,, up and down, it's not a sheer movement freely in the sense of movement being accelerated by hax, Mega Maelstorm Vortex Cannon was a counter to that aka an attack speed which specified by one ability, you won't say you are Supersonic just because you are holding a Glock, right? That's an asinine.

This means that the Anti-Spiral are capable of affecting something directly in the process of moving across time itself.

Time manipulation.

This directly involves moving an object across time, space and dimensions through attacks alone, no special hax is involved, to further back up the feats from later in the series.

What makes you say that, seriously? Apparently every universal time manipulators are Immeasurable now for involving past and future.

Evidence I posted says otherwise but please, do keep stonewalling.

Calm down.

Super Spiral Space uses Brane cosmology, and Simon and the rest of Team Dai-Gurren travels through it after breaking through the Multiversal Labyrinth (which is also located inside Super Spiral Space). The Anti-Spiral created Super Spiral Space.

Super Spiral Universe had nothing to do with brane cosmology, it is compressed within TTGL, not being consisted inside a brane space or osciliating between them like the Anti-Spiral's dimension.

The entire place disappeared after the Anti-Spiral died.

So...?

Maybe use that last half a brain cell of yours for critical thinking next time instead of kneejerk reactions.

Calm down.

Creating the Super Spiral Space requires merging all possible Gurren Laganns (and more, given the novelization) past, present and future together into a virtual quantum entity that transcends time and dimensions, then returning everything to their original points in the Multiverse afterwards. If this is just range, then how are BB, Akasha and others immeasurable from this exact same thing?

As long as you are saying TTGL are 1-B or worse. 1-A, then that argument would works, but apparently they aren't. We no longer qualifies space-time transcending as higher-dimensional or beyond-dimensional (or it never was?) without sufficient context and proofs.

Yes, they created it. Everything they created disappeared when they died. That includes Super Spiral Space and the Labyrinth. The fact that you think this is just the name of a technique shows how dumb you are considering supplementary material outright calls it a MULTIVERSAL LABYRINTH.

Hell, I'll even post Nakashima's interview here again: https://mediag.bunka.go.jp/article/article-15013/

Calm down. Prove it, prove if they created it then, it is called as the Multiverse Labyrinth because it traps the consciousnesses of the victims forever inside the infinite possibilities by controling/influencing/manipulating the multiverse generated by the divergence of the time axis, then replaced it with infinite universes instant to instant as the possibilities are perceived, literally no source even ouright it as an independent multiverse created by the Anti-Spiral.

Also, your interview quote doesn't help.

That's one of the basis for the Multiversal Labyrinth. It's not a technique, it's legitimately trapping them in a multiverse that they can't escape from because their own desires are used against them.

Yes, it traps them to the already existing multiverse, not an independent multiverse they created. They only branches it further by expanding the quantum cosmology, it is still a 2-A feat (disregarding the dimensional tiering).

Source

"The "multiverse" is a universe that becomes real at the moment of recognition. It is a logical trap that no intelligent creature can escape from the multiverse forever because the possibility of a possible future changes directly into a universe. In Simon's case, for example, he is trapped in the possibility that if Kamina were alive and did not fight the beastmen, he wouldn't have died. There is an infinite number of possibilities, and hell will follow. It is no longer possible to return to the real universe after being affected by a different kind of multiverse. The strongest and worst trap for the people by an expanded interpretation of quantum cosmology. The Anti-Spiral has dropped numerous Spiral warriors up to this point and forced them to ruin."

And the end of Episode 26 as well as the movie shows how many different universes/possibilities there are in the past, present, and future. Simon merges with all of those in order to break out of the Labyrinth.

That's correct, but how is that relevant here.

Again, for someone that scanned material for this series, you seem to not actually read through them.

What's up with the arrogance, actually?

LordGenome is the bio-computer, so he’d be the one locking onto the Ashtanga and he’d be the one sensing them. Did you miss that little tidbit in the show itself when Rossiu resurrected him and hooked him up to Cathedral Terra?

Spiral scan did it, Lordgenome helps, the Spiral radar is what detect the Ashtangas in the probability space then lock them by establishing their coordinates of location. So not only Immeasurable reaction speed for Lordgenome is still laughable, it is headcanon.

Source

"Spiral Wave Detection Monitor [Mecha/Machine - Episode 23] Popular name, spiral radar. It is connected to the Super Galaxy Dai-Gurren's Spiral space transcendence machine and hyper spiral computer, and explores all dimensions and space-time. It is possible to track what has been recognized once and detect its location. It traced the ring of Nia and discovered an isolated universe between the 10 dimensional universe and 11 dimensional universe where the Anti-Spiral is hidden."

Let's try that again, this time with the novel:
http://www.style.fm/as/13_special/mini_080404a.shtml

TRANSLATION:

Space is warped. Time is bendable. Earth being able to see the battle in real-time was for their benefit because the battle was projected.

How is that relevant here?

Thanks for not reading it. He literally breaks through the walls of the Multiverse and his Spiral Power reaches throughout the past, present, and future. Acausality is one effect of being Immeasurable so you just proved that you can't connect the dots.

Being Immeasurable doesn't make you acausal, I'm sure, neither is vice versa.

Denial isn't merely a river in Egypt.

Do you have a good sleep last night?

Simon can reach out across all of time and fly across the infinite Multiverse to a dimension outside time to a planet with its own timeflow, but somehow this is not immeasurable.

Yeah it is not, also there is no "infinite" travel, you need proof.

You did?
https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3712835
https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3712877
https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3712889
https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3714924
https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3714926
https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3715000
https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3715115
https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3715115

Yeah I did, twice.

Nowhere in any of your previous posts did you once refute (or even make reference to) punching a hole through space and time, or how it’s not a speed feat. You’re only response was “eh, okay?” which in itself means nothing, and is, in fact, a concession of a lack of argument. And again, Lordgenome himself is the bio-computer, he himself would have to sense them.

Sending people to the end of time-space by breaking the fabric of reality is just a space-time manipulation and BFR, at least elaborate on why it's a speed feat. Lordgenome didn't lock the Ashtangas in the sense of a sniper locking a target with a snipe, Spiral radar, Spiral scan.

He generates his Spiral Power. His Spiral Power is his energy source and powers him up; it's what allowed him to take on the Anti-Spiral in hand-to-hand combat at the end of the second movie.

So basically "Spiral Power can travel through time, Simon used Spiral Power hence he can move through time with his sheer movement too.", correct? This is a fallacy, a power source could do X doesn't mean the user can do the same, we don't assume every Spiral lifeforms are High 1-C because Spiral Power is an underpinning fondation which govern the cosmos.

But sure, keep ignoring that. By your logic, Dragon Ball is not MFTL+ because it's their beams that usually travel at high speeds, not them.

Oh? Let's check out how many more examples of "false equivalance" there are in the wiki:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/BB_(Fate/Extra_CCC)


https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Akashic_Records


https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Mister_Mxyzptlk


https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Vivec


https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/MIKE


https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Alduin


https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Alternity


https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Zagreus_(Doctor_Who)


https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Nicol_Bolas


https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Goddess_of_Dawn

https://gyazo.com/82e832041e7c8ea94c8af6799fff0261
https://gyazo.com/c2ed4debe43f4235acd8f4b466473a5e


https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Nobody_(BlazBlue)


https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Lilith_(World_of_Darkness)




https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Yosuke_Hanamura


https://i.imgur.com/8tmCSwF_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=mediu

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Grandfather_Spider


https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Solaris


https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/God_(Image_Comics)

Imma just repeat literally my first counter.

You can't... just use the other profiles' justifications to compare to what we have right now since we evaluate bunches of stuffs with similar circumstances case by case, context, context, context. "Transcending time and space" is mostly only applicable to 1-dimensional transcendence on the matter of trivializing the whole time dimension as meaningless in uncountably infinite difference, something you haven't prove.

Sure. Easy enough.

TRANSLATION:

You are confident enough to say "easy", I'm impressed, now tell me why "transcend", let alone "greater" is equal to uncountably infinite or an inaccessible gap between higher and lower dimensions, 0 and 1.

Of course you can't, because I know that's all you had since I literally aware of all scans presented here.

This isn't just "acausality" despite you trying so desperately hard to handwave it as such.

For someone who's a supposed "fan" of this series, you sure don't understand how it works.

Translation: You can't refute any of them. Thanks for the roundabout admittance.

Rolf rolf, question, are you from Spacebattles? Cuz it explains your entire behaviour here.

Edit: People really agreeing without knowing the context, huh.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

You can't... just use the other profiles' justifications to compare to what we have right now since we evaluate bunches of stuffs with similar circumstances case by case, context, context, context.

Immeasurable via "transcending time and space" is mostly only applicable to 1-dimensional transcendence on the matter of trivializing the whole time dimension as meaningless in uncountably infinite difference, something you haven't prove yet.


Care to quote where the scans says the opposite then, please? It sounds more like my "evaluation" is crap cuz I have different interpretation than yours, I know the context, I everything you've posted, but most of them are not even related to speed.


This is all wrong, the Anti-Spiral's dimension is located between two membranes of universes, manifolding between them as an imaginary space, it is called as "the ends of the multiverse" solely because it relies at the highest brane layers, the 11th dimension, but ultimately is still included within the multiverse or "the cosmos".


Except that their universe does not lie above the multiverse.


Tell me a reason why an omnipresent guy with higher degree of time manipulation, and immunity to time manipulation couldn't do that without achieving Immeasurable speed.


It is case by case, accelerating your sheer speed via abilities counts.

But like I said not here, at non iste.

Schroedinger Warp in function jumps the Ashtangas randomly across the time-axis,, up and down, it's not a sheer movement freely in the sense of movement being accelerated by hax, Mega Maelstorm Vortex Cannon was a counter to that aka an attack speed which specified by one ability, you won't say you are Supersonic just because you are holding a Glock, right? That's an asinine.


Time manipulation.


What makes you say that, seriously? Apparently every universal time manipulators are Immeasurable now for involving past and future.


Calm down.


Super Spiral Universe had nothing to do with brane cosmology, it is compressed within TTGL, not being consisted inside a brane space or osciliating between them like the Anti-Spiral's dimension.


So...?


Calm down.


As long as you are saying TTGL are 1-B or worse. 1-A, then that argument would works, but apparently they aren't. We no longer qualifies space-time transcending as higher-dimensional or beyond-dimensional (or it never was?) without sufficient context and proofs.


Calm down. Prove it, prove if they created it then, it is called as the Multiverse Labyrinth because it traps the consciousnesses of the victims forever inside the infinite possibilities by controling/influencing/manipulating the multiverse generated by the divergence of the time axis, then replaced it with infinite universes instant to instant as the possibilities are perceived, literally no source even ouright it as an independent multiverse created by the Anti-Spiral.

Also, your interview quote doesn't help.


Yes, it traps them to the already existing multiverse, not an independent multiverse they created. They only branches it further by expanding the quantum cosmology, it is still a 2-A feat (disregarding the dimensional tiering).

Source

"The "multiverse" is a universe that becomes real at the moment of recognition. It is a logical trap that no intelligent creature can escape from the multiverse forever because the possibility of a possible future changes directly into a universe. In Simon's case, for example, he is trapped in the possibility that if Kamina were alive and did not fight the beastmen, he wouldn't have died. There is an infinite number of possibilities, and hell will follow. It is no longer possible to return to the real universe after being affected by a different kind of multiverse. The strongest and worst trap for the people by an expanded interpretation of quantum cosmology. The Anti-Spiral has dropped numerous Spiral warriors up to this point and forced them to ruin."

That's correct, but how is that relevant here.


What's up with the arrogance, actually?


Spiral scan did it, Lordgenome helps, the Spiral radar is what detect the Ashtangas in the probability space then lock them by establishing their coordinates of location. So not only Immeasurable reaction speed for Lordgenome is still laughable, it is headcanon.

Source

"Spiral Wave Detection Monitor [Mecha/Machine - Episode 23] Popular name, spiral radar. It is connected to the Super Galaxy Dai-Gurren's Spiral space transcendence machine and hyper spiral computer, and explores all dimensions and space-time. It is possible to track what has been recognized once and detect its location. It traced the ring of Nia and discovered an isolated universe between the 10 dimensional universe and 11 dimensional universe where the Anti-Spiral is hidden."

How is that relevant here?


Being Immeasurable doesn't make you acausal, I'm sure, neither is vice versa.


Do you have a good sleep last night?


Yeah it is not, also there is no "infinite" travel, you need proof.


Yeah I did, twice.


Sending people to the end of time-space by breaking the fabric of reality is just a space-time manipulation and BFR, at least elaborate on why it's a speed feat. Lordgenome didn't lock the Ashtangas in the sense of a sniper locking a target with a snipe, Spiral radar, Spiral scan.


So basically "Spiral Power can travel through time, Simon used Spiral Power hence he can move through time with his sheer movement too.", correct? This is a fallacy, a power source could do X doesn't mean the user can do the same, we don't assume every Spiral lifeforms are High 1-C because Spiral Power is an underpinning fondation which govern the cosmos.


Imma just repeat literally my first counter.

You can't... just use the other profiles' justifications to compare to what we have right now since we evaluate bunches of stuffs with similar circumstances case by case, context, context, context. "Transcending time and space" is mostly only applicable to 1-dimensional transcendence on the matter of trivializing the whole time dimension as meaningless in uncountably infinite difference, something you haven't prove.

You are confident enough to say "easy", I'm impressed, now tell me why "transcend", let alone "greater" is equal to uncountably infinite or an inaccessible gap between higher and lower dimensions, 0 and 1.

Of course you can't, because I know that's all you had since I literally aware of all scans presented here.


Rolf rolf, question, are you from Spacebattles? Cuz it explains your entire behaviour here.

Edit: People really agreeing without knowing the context, huh.

Some of your replies on this message is hilarious. But yeah, I trust GreatIskandar the most when it comes to TTGL

 

[Planck69]

@BardicheAssault

1. That kind of attitude won't be tolerated here. Disagreeing is one thing but insulting another member's intelligence and being hostile because of it is another.

2. I really hope you realize that a chunk of those profiles have been evaluated and agreed to have Immeasurable speed. Using the short hand on the speed section without looking at context is ridiculous.

3. There's an ongoing profile to remove Immeasurable speed from those who don't deserve it so all you've done is point is to more profiles needing scrutiny. I suppose that you deserve thanks for that.

 

[Cloozuma]

Oh, really?
It’s more than enough for other series. Infact, why don’t we take a look at all the other series?

Akasha being omnipresent in it’s domain (just like the Anti-Spiral) and being able to attack or warp anything past, present or future (just like Simon, Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann and the Ashtanga). More than enough to be immeasurable.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Akashic_Records


BB sees all things past, present and future at once, this gives her immeasurable reactions. Somehow this same thing is not enough for Simon or the Anti-Spiral. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/BB_(Fate/Extra_CCC)


Mr Mxy transcends time (just like the Anti-Spiral), freely moves through time (just like the Ashtanga and Perceptual Teleportation) and views all pasts, presents and futures simultaneously (just like Simon).
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Mister_Mxyzptlk


The Goddess of Dawn is unbound by time, which is enough to make her immeasurable. However, the Anti-Spiral being unbound by time isn’t nearly enough.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Goddess_of_Dawn


Infact, all that’s required of her to be immeasurable here is that she is unbound by time and space and comes from a higher level of existence. I wonder where I’ve heard that before?
https://gyazo.com/c2ed4debe43f4235acd8f4b466473a5e
https://gyazo.com/82e832041e7c8ea94c8af6799fff0261


Yosuke Hanamura having immeasurable speed only requires fighting an Archtype, which transcends time and space

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Yosuke_Hanamura


But let’s look at the evidence supplied itself supplied on the page.

https://i.imgur.com/8tmCSwF_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=mediu

There’s nothing about traveling across infinite space and time, sensing the target in multiple places at once, all that’s needed to warrant the immeasurable rating is to exist outside of time and space. Which the Anti-Spiral also does, with far more feats to back it up.

God from Image is immeasurable as angels can transport characters, but somehow Perceptual Teleportation and the Anti-Spiral interacting with this Perceptual Teleportation is something completely different.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/God_(Image_Comics)

Spoiler

I could go on, and will if I have to. For now you’ve got a long road ahead of you explaining why transcending time and perceiving and interacting with the past, present and future, existing in higher realms to time and perceiving and interacting with entities travelling through time is not enough for Gurren Lagann to be immeasurable, but perfectly acceptable for countless other series to be immeasurable, with far less evidence.


Yet your "evaluation" is a load of crap because, again, you simply ignored everything I posted. You say that you translated most of those scans yet Japanese is so easy to mistranslate. You claim that you understand yet you can't handle the fact that your own scans says the opposite of what you're spouting. Miss me with that.


The Anti-Spiral dimension is located at the ends of the Multiverse, in a dimension separated from the rest of the cosmos.

https://www.gurren-lagann.net/tv/news/index.html


TRANSLATION:


Reaching it would require flying beyond all of the infinite branching universes the Anti-Spiral were overlooking. Which they do. Fly through the universes and beyond them. We even see this when Simon escapes the Labyrinth in the movie.


Except the Anti-Spiral are omnipresent in their own dimension where the flow of time is meaningless to them to the point they exist without it. How would a being who’s preference is freezing time when it’s not needed be bound be linear time?


And, again, by your hilariously dumb logic, no one would be Immeasurable in speed since everything is via "abilities". Do you not see how ridiculous this sounds? No? Then that's your problem, not mine.


This means that the Anti-Spiral are capable of affecting something directly in the process of moving across time itself.


This directly involves moving an object across time, space and dimensions through attacks alone, no special hax is involved, to further back up the feats from later in the series.


Evidence I posted says otherwise but please, do keep stonewalling.


Super Spiral Space uses Brane cosmology, and Simon and the rest of Team Dai-Gurren travels through it after breaking through the Multiversal Labyrinth (which is also located inside Super Spiral Space). The Anti-Spiral created Super Spiral Space.

The entire place disappeared after the Anti-Spiral died.

Maybe use that last half a brain cell of yours for critical thinking next time instead of kneejerk reactions.


Creating the Super Spiral Space requires merging all possible Gurren Laganns (and more, given the novelization) past, present and future together into a virtual quantum entity that transcends time and dimensions, then returning everything to their original points in the Multiverse afterwards. If this is just range, then how are BB, Akasha and others immeasurable from this exact same thing?


Yes, they created it. Everything they created disappeared when they died. That includes Super Spiral Space and the Labyrinth. The fact that you think this is just the name of a technique shows how dumb you are considering supplementary material outright calls it a MULTIVERSAL LABYRINTH.

Hell, I'll even post Nakashima's interview here again: https://mediag.bunka.go.jp/article/article-15013/


TRANSLATION:

That's one of the basis for the Multiversal Labyrinth. It's not a technique, it's legitimately trapping them in a multiverse that they can't escape from because their own desires are used against them.

And the end of Episode 26 as well as the movie shows how many different universes/possibilities there are in the past, present, and future. Simon merges with all of those in order to break out of the Labyrinth.

Again, for someone that scanned material for this series, you seem to not actually read through them.


LordGenome is the bio-computer, so he’d be the one locking onto the Ashtanga and he’d be the one sensing them. Did you miss that little tidbit in the show itself when Rossiu resurrected him and hooked him up to Cathedral Terra?


Let's try that again, this time with the novel:
http://www.style.fm/as/13_special/mini_080404a.shtml

TRANSLATION:

Space is warped. Time is bendable. Earth being able to see the battle in real-time was for their benefit because the battle was projected.


Thanks for not reading it. He literally breaks through the walls of the Multiverse and his Spiral Power reaches throughout the past, present, and future. Acausality is one effect of being Immeasurable so you just proved that you can't connect the dots.


Denial isn't merely a river in Egypt.


Simon can reach out across all of time and fly across the infinite Multiverse to a dimension outside time to a planet with its own timeflow, but somehow this is not immeasurable.


You did?
https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3712835
https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3712877
https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3712889
https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3714924
https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3714926
https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3715000
https://vsbattles.com/threads/tengen-toppa-gurren-lagann-speed-revision.115384/#post-3715115
Nowhere in any of your previous posts did you once refute (or even make reference to) punching a hole through space and time, or how it’s not a speed feat. You’re only response was “eh, okay?” which in itself means nothing, and is, in fact, a concession of a lack of argument. And again, Lordgenome himself is the bio-computer, he himself would have to sense them.


He generates his Spiral Power. His Spiral Power is his energy source and powers him up; it's what allowed him to take on the Anti-Spiral in hand-to-hand combat at the end of the second movie.

But sure, keep ignoring that. By your logic, Dragon Ball is not MFTL+ because it's their beams that usually travel at high speeds, not them.

Oh? Let's check out how many more examples of "false equivalance" there are in the wiki:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/BB_(Fate/Extra_CCC)


https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/The_Akashic_Records


https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Mister_Mxyzptlk


https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Vivec


https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/MIKE


https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Alduin


https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Alternity


https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Zagreus_(Doctor_Who)


https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Nicol_Bolas


https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Goddess_of_Dawn

https://gyazo.com/82e832041e7c8ea94c8af6799fff0261
https://gyazo.com/c2ed4debe43f4235acd8f4b466473a5e


https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Nobody_(BlazBlue)


https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Lilith_(World_of_Darkness)




https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Yosuke_Hanamura


https://i.imgur.com/8tmCSwF_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=mediu

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Grandfather_Spider


https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Solaris


https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/God_(Image_Comics)





Sure. Easy enough.

TRANSLATION:

This isn't just "acausality" despite you trying so desperately hard to handwave it as such.

For someone who's a supposed "fan" of this series, you sure don't understand how it works.


Translation: You can't refute any of them. Thanks for the roundabout admittance.

I like how this guy wrote a research paper

 

[BluudyManikin777]

I like how this guy wrote a research paper

I mean, that’s how CRTs are anyways, but it’s because of how all of it was just debunked that made how large it was great lol

 

[Cloozuma]

I mean, that’s how CRTs are anyways, but it’s because of how all of it was just debunked that made how large it was great lol

Nah I ain't seeing shit like that, but sure ig

 

[Planck69]

@DarkDragonMedeus

Do you think this should be closed?

There doesn't seem to be any point to letting this continue. Virtually everyone participating disagrees with this, it's already been discussed at length some months prior and all the current arguments consist of insisting things that we currently don't rate as Immeasurable speed are viable evidence.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Personally, I think it can be closed yes.

 

[Planck69]

Thank you. I'm closing this then.