Issues with scaling for the MHA verse

[TheRustyOne]

Maybe our calcs are the problem, remember every time I say this in universe Endeavor is around 45% of 100%. Endeavor himself states that Shigaraki is comparable to All Might which no one disagrees with, and Aizawa silently compares him to the USJ Nomu.

We know via the doctor statements that Shigaraki is not quite on par with All Might, but this does imply he's comparable.

Shigaraki's AP is indeed>Endeavor's Dura. However I refuse to accept a one shot gap between them, since that literally saying the entire fight and struggle the heroes went through was only aloud because Shigaraki is incapable of thinking.

It's clear that in universe Endeavor isn't someone who can be one hit killed by All Might level opponents, nor has something like that ever been stated.

Kamino AFO and All Might should be one the same tier as 75% Shigaraki, as Endeavor states Shigaraki is as strong as All Might. The only All Might he can compare to is Kamino All Might, which means the scaling is.

Endeavor<Shigaraki</=All Might and AFO Kamino.

 

[Damage3245]

If we're going to say just surviving Shiggy's attacks is enough to scale than 45% Deku is as strong as All Might too I guess...

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

Then what do you suggest we do? Scale Endeavor to 100% OFA? That makes no sense as we blatantly see him get pierced or harmed by attacks OFA users shrug off.

I don’t get how Endeavor can have durability rivalling AFO and OFA users but then majority of his feats and even in entire character motivation contradicts that.

As for why didn’t Shigaraki just tear Endeavor apart. It very well could be PIS. Because Endeavor being Low7B+ but then being blasted away and taken out of the fight by an indirect 7C attack makes absolutely no sense.

So the options I can think of are upgrading Kamino All might and Afo to be higher than a Low 7-B+ Dura Endeavor but this might be contradictory to a 7-C attack from Afo.

Give Endeavor a New key and say he got thousand times stronger which is ridiculous

Or

Calling the whole Fight PiS

 

[TheRustyOne]

If we're going to say just surviving Shiggy's attacks is enough to scale than 45% Deku is as strong as All Might too I guess...

In Universe he's around 45% of All Might's strength currently.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Maybe our calcs are the problem, remember every time I say this in universe Endeavor is around 45% of 100%. Endeavor himself states that Shigaraki is comparable to All Might which no one disagrees with, and Aizawa silently compares him to the USJ Nomu.

We know via the doctor statements that Shigaraki is not quite on par with All Might, but this does imply he's comparable.

Shigaraki's AP is indeed>Endeavor's Dura. However I refuse to accept a one shot gap between them, since that literally saying the entire fight and struggle the heroes went through was only aloud because Shigaraki is incapable of thinking.

It's clear that in universe Endeavor isn't someone who can be one hit killed by All Might level opponents, nor has something like that ever been stated.

Kamino AFO and All Might should be one the same tier as 75% Shigaraki, as Endeavor states Shigaraki is as strong as All Might. The only All Might he can compare to is Kamino All Might, which means the scaling is.

Endeavor<Shigaraki</=All Might and AFO Kamino.

I'd definitely say the calcs are the problem cause we get far bigger divides in strength than what the story seems to be implying (I highly doubt Horikoshi believes Kamino AM is over a thousand times weaker than Prime AM or even current 100% Deku.

The only time iirc that 100% is said to be able to one hit kill someone is Bakugou and that was back in the battle trial arc. Plus even now other students like Mirio seem to be inferior in durability to Endeavor.

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

I'd definitely say the calcs are the problem cause we get far bigger divides in strength than what the story seems to be implying (I highly doubt Horikoshi believes Kamino AM is over a thousand times weaker than Prime AM or even current 100%

Tbf we had that chart in two heroes that made it look like All might at that time was at best a fraction of his prime

Then got weaker than there
But thousands of times weaker than even his Usj self I also doubt the story was trying to convey

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

So the options I can think of are upgrading Kamino All might and Afo to be higher than a Low 7-B+ Dura Endeavor but this might be contradictory to a 7-C attack from Afo.

Give Endeavor a New key and say he got thousand times stronger which is ridiculous

Or

Calling the whole Fight PiS

Yup. I'm not too sure what we should do at this point. Buff characters in correspondence with the calcs and ignore what the story is telling us or drop some calcs so the scaling can actually make sense.

You got a picture of that chart?

 

[Damage3245]

@Insert_creative_name_here_12; Dropping some movies calcs would make me happy.

 

[TheRustyOne]

@Insert_creative_name_here_12; Dropping some movies calcs would make me happy.

For what reason?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

@Insert_creative_name_here_12; Dropping some movies calcs would make me happy.

See I feel like this would be dishonest tho

 

[TheRustyOne]

Ignoring the calcs entirely, there is nothing stated or implied that a one shot gap between Endeavor and All Might.

It's clear Horikoshi doesn't believe this either, since he wouldn't have Endeavor state Shigaraki is as strong as All Might. In universe the percentages are linear and 45% is just that to 100%. Shigaraki overpowered 45%, and is capable of taking hits from 100% but is weaker.

Without the calcs nothing about that seems wrong.

Let's be real, if Shigaraki was holding back by that huge amount, why would no one call this out?

 

[Damage3245]

See I feel like this would be dishonest tho

Only from a certain perspective. I've always felt that the movies fall into a loose kind of "Sure, you can slot this into canon but the events of the film will never be referenced in any way going forwards." Only teasers and cameos at best.

Hence why some characters can get much more impressive feats than you'd get in the manga and they don't demonstrate that same level of power in the same arcs where the movies are supposed to be taking place.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Ignoring the calcs entirely, there is nothing stated or implied that a one shot gap between Endeavor and All Might.

It's clear Horikoshi doesn't believe this either, since he wouldn't have Endeavor state Shigaraki is as strong as All Might. In universe the percentages are linear and 45% is just that to 100%. Shigaraki overpowered 45%, and is capable of taking hits from 100% but is weaker.

Without the calcs nothing about that seems wrong.

Let's be real, if Shigaraki was holding back by that huge amount, why would no one call this out?

So do we ignore some calcs and try to adhere more closely to the story implications?

 

[Damage3245]

For what reason?

I was going to wait for the thread to be over so I could start a new thread addressing issues, but I think we have a problem with how we scale the movie feats to some other feats.

Take for example this calc for Izuku smashing a huge steel pillar.

For some reason on say Midnight's profile for example, we rate it like this:

Durability: Likely Large Building level (Should be superior to base Deku, who can survive crashing himself into a wall with a 5% jump)

Implying that Deku jumping into a wall (and causing zero damage to said wall) is remotely comparable to him fragmenting 96.52 cubic meters of steel. The difference between the portrayal of Izuku jumping into a wall, and Izuku obliterating a huge mass of steel is so huge I don't know how anyone can seriously claim the two feats are equal to each other.

Izuku jumping into a wall should not be Large Building level.

 

[TheRustyOne]

The problem is that Horikoshi does state they fit within the timeline, and the story of the movie does indeed connect with his manga.

Midnight shouldn't be scaling to that, her dura should at best scale to Mineta who can take a hit from the Villain bots, which can injure Base Izuku.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Only from a certain perspective. I've always felt that the movies fall into a loose kind of "Sure, you can slot this into canon but the events of the film will never be referenced in any way going forwards." Only teasers and cameos at best.

Hence why some characters can get much more impressive feats than you'd get in the manga and they don't demonstrate that same level of power in the same arcs where the movies are supposed to be taking place.

I mean no, the movies are canon, we know that for sure, so I don’t like the idea of discrediting them just because we don’t like how high their calcs are when compared to the OG manga

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

Yup. I'm not too sure what we should do at this point. Buff characters in correspondence with the calcs and ignore what the story is telling us or drop some calcs so the scaling can actually make sense.

You got a picture of that chart?

Here is the Chart

 

[Damage3245]

If Izuku ever references the events of the story along the lines of "Hey, remember when we fought that Nine guy who could also steal Quirks?" or "I remember that time I leant One For All to Bakugo" then I'll eat my hat and concede that the movies are fully canon. But for now I believe firmly that the movies are only in a loose sense of canon and shouldn't be the primary benchmark we use for scaling the characters.

The Director even says that the events that take place may only happen in the movie. Are they contradicted by the manga's timeline? No. But that doesn't mean they happened in the manga.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Here is the Chart

I wish we had a way to read that.

I mean no, the movies are canon, we know that for sure, so I don’t like the idea of discrediting them just because we don’t like how high their calcs are when compared to the OG manga

While I don't agree with Damage on dropping the movie calcs, I get where he's coming from. The highest calc for AM and Deku we have is from the movies and is what's causing most of the issue with all this scaling since it's around 1000 times higher than Air Cannon.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

If Izuku ever references the events of the story along the lines of "Hey, remember when we fought that Nine guy who could also steal Quirks?" or "I remember that time I leant One For All to Bakugo" then I'll eat my hat and concede that the movies are fully canon. But for now I believe firmly that the movies are only in a loose sense of canon and shouldn't be the primary benchmark we use for scaling the characters.

The Director even says that the events that take place may only happen in the movie. Are they contradicted by the manga's timeline? No. But that doesn't mean they happened in the manga.

I mean to me, that’s just grasping at straws so that we can discredit the movie calcs because they are making the scaling difficult, My Hero Movies are one of the few movies that have almost every piece of evidence needed that they are canon, but we just want to say “Nah, they aren’t the true canon” just because we don’t like how they mess with the scaling? Maybe the real issue is that My Hero isn’t great with calcs in general

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

I wish we had a way to read that.

While I don't agree with Damage on dropping the movie calcs, I get where he's coming from. The highest calc for AM and Deku we have is from the movies and is what's causing most of the issue with all this scaling since it's around 1000 times higher than Air Cannon.

Technically isn’t the highest calc EP 1 All might when he created a storm

 

[TheRustyOne]

I mean the manga does indeed show Nine, which we're just going to say doesn't happen? The doctor mentioned in the manga to deliver a package for him before he'll assist them. The movie shows this was Nine, which is the most direct connection between the movies we get.

Doesn't matter if it's only a small panel, he appeared in the series. This evidence along with Horikoshi's statements is pretty hard to say they're not canon.

Horikoshi himself wrote Nine's backstory and labeled it as Chapter No ???. Which is something none of the one shots have to my knowledge.

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

I mean to me, that’s just grasping at straws so that we can discredit the movie calcs because they are making the scaling difficult, My Hero Movies are one of the few movies that have almost every piece of evidence needed that they are canon, but we just want to say “Nah, they aren’t the true canon” just because we don’t like how they mess with the scaling? Maybe the real issue is that My Hero isn’t great with calcs in general

The verse also struggles with not having a singular power system(Like Chakra Mana or Cursed Energy)it makes it hard to scale characters to each other when we have things like

Blunt Force Durability
Elemental Durability

Withstanding a lot of quirks in the series is just a simple matter of resistance to a specific ability 60% of the time
Not just having more Raw stats.
As an example

 

[Damage3245]

Like I said, right now the movie has teasers and cameos.

And putting aside the whole canon issue - I still don't think we should be scaling Izuku's 5% training with Gran Torino to the movie feat. Him jumping into a wall is what was given in support of 8-C+ base Deku at the beginning of the series.

 

[TheRustyOne]

I believe the reasons for Base Izuku downscaling from 5% should be him stating 5% is not a big increase, and how he could slightly injure Todoroki without OFA.

We were told during the Camp training arc that none of the students have gotten stronger, as shown with Bakugo's throw test. The've improved slightly but their growth has mostly been mental up until that point. The first movie takes place before the Training Camp, which means 5% Izuku in the movie is comparable to Stain Arc 5%

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

I mean to me, that’s just grasping at straws so that we can discredit the movie calcs because they are making the scaling difficult, My Hero Movies are one of the few movies that have almost every piece of evidence needed that they are canon, but we just want to say “Nah, they aren’t the true canon” just because we don’t like how they mess with the scaling? Maybe the real issue is that My Hero isn’t great with calcs in general

MHA especially in this arc supports that issue with calcs.

Technically isn’t the highest calc EP 1 All might when he created a storm

Well yeah but not only is that far above Air Cannon it was inconsistent as heck

 

[Damage3245]

I believe the reasons for Base Izuku downscaling from 5% should be him stating 5% is not a big increase, and how he could slightly injure Todoroki without OFA.

I want to challenge those reasons. The statement for 5% being a small increase has more than one interpretation. It could just mean a small increase compared to the big increase he gets with more power.

And consider the implications. If we say for example that base Deku is about half as strong as his 5% self, do you think that he could shatter around 50 cubic meters of steel with a kick, or a punch? I don't know why he even had to resort to using 100% One For All against that 0-point bot when apparently base Deku is strong enough to shatter it all by himself.

As for "slightly injuring Shoto", Shoto gets his durability scaling from Izuku himself right now.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Todoroki gets his durability for taking a 5% punch to the gut.

That's interpretation is very possible, however him slightly injuring Todoroki who can take a 5% punch implies their is some comparability between 5% and his base. The 5% punch did more damage, but Todoroki didn't tank Base Izuku's hit.

AP doesn't equal the amount of destruction a person can unleash with their attack. The wiki states this right on the Attack Potency page, just because he's High 8-C or 8-C+ it doesn't mean he can destroy a building.

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

MHA especially in this arc supports that issue with calcs.

Well yeah but not only is that far above Air Cannon it was inconsistent as heck

It’s not inconsistent if you account for Bakugo’s 5.48 megatons
With All might being at 9.63 i think

Not too much of a gap albeit it’s still dimensions above Air canon
If you only refer to the main manga it blows literally every other feat out of the water to a absurd Degree

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

It’s not inconsistent if you account for Bakugo’s 5.48 megatons
With All might being at 9.63 i think

Not too much of a gap albeit it’s still dimensions above Air canon
If you only refer to the main manga it blows literally every other feat out of the water to a absurd Degree

By inconsistent I meant it got recacled to a different value every two weeks. I’ve seen 7A AM, High 7A, 6C and more all from that calc.

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

By inconsistent I meant it got recacled to a different value every two weeks. I’ve seen 7A AM, High 7A, 6C and more all from that calc.

Oh that’s true there
I remember a very long time ago before I joined this wiki I saw people talking about all mights storm in all those various ways
Albeit that was before it was agreed all might isn’t pushing storms around but rather creating them.
Why on earth did it change so much?

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Oh that’s true there
I remember a very long time ago before I joined this wiki I saw people talking about all mights storm in all those various ways
Why on earth did it change so much?

I can’t remember why all I know is it was so problematic to the scaling it was agreed to just be dropped.

 

[Gitagon]

Maybe our calcs are the problem, remember every time I say this in universe Endeavor is around 45% of 100%. Endeavor himself states that Shigaraki is comparable to All Might which no one disagrees with, and Aizawa silently compares him to the USJ Nomu.

We know via the doctor statements that Shigaraki is not quite on par with All Might, but this does imply he's comparable.

Shigaraki's AP is indeed>Endeavor's Dura. However I refuse to accept a one shot gap between them, since that literally saying the entire fight and struggle the heroes went through was only aloud because Shigaraki is incapable of thinking.

It's clear that in universe Endeavor isn't someone who can be one hit killed by All Might level opponents, nor has something like that ever been stated.

Kamino AFO and All Might should be one the same tier as 75% Shigaraki, as Endeavor states Shigaraki is as strong as All Might. The only All Might he can compare to is Kamino All Might, which means the scaling is.

Endeavor<Shigaraki</=All Might and AFO Kamino.

This is indeed how I see it. Endeavor's durability can be compared to All Might by looking at how they took being rammed through buildings. All Might was winded but not injured while Endeavor got injured but could still fight. So one can sort of see the gap in one's mind.

As for other factors, whether its speed or raw power, Shigaraki and All Might are better than Endeavor but their speed is not fast enough to blitz him seeing how he was able to react to Shiggy multiple times. Endeavor's AP is also no joke when he uses Flashfire as each Flashfire move he used clearly rocked or damaged Shigaraki so his major weakness is stamina.

As for whether Shiggy can one-shot him, I think so, but it has to be a blow to a vital part like the head. After-all even comparable characters can one-shot each other like All Might K.O.ing AFO with a single punch to the head.

 

[TheRustyOne]

I mean in real life it's possible that you can kill someone with a single punch, depending on where you hit them, even if they're stronger than you.

When I mean one shot, I'm saying an actual one shot where a single punch and that part of Endeavor's body he hit explodes into blood. Just the top half of his body is completely gone from the power, that's what I'm talking about.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

As for whether Shiggy can one-shot him, I think so, but it has to be a blow to a vital part like the head. After-all even comparable characters can one-shot each other like All Might K.O.ing AFO with a single punch to the head.

It technically took AM 3 blows to the head/jaw but yeah

 

[Gitagon]

Tbf we had that chart in two heroes that made it look like All might at that time was at best a fraction of his prime

Then got weaker than there
But thousands of times weaker than even his Usj self I also doubt the story was trying to convey

The chart did look dismal but...

Actually I just looked up the graph the movie used and basically All Might's quirk activity is 7 or 8 times weaker. If one translates quirk activity into power levels, (though I don't think that's what it's meant to be, maybe activation time limit), Weakened All Might is only about 8 times weaker than the Prime version.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

So do we ignore calcs that throw the scaling out of whack or contradict the story or do we try to find some other way in this scaling mess?

 

[Jackof_noTrades068]

The chart did look dismal but...

Actually I just looked up the graph the movie used and basically All Might's quirk activity is 7 or 8 times weaker. If one translates quirk activity into power levels, (though I don't think that's what it's meant to be, maybe activation time limit), Weakened All Might is only about 8 times weaker than the Prime version.

That’s still a little funky to be used because it can be interpreted as mere activation time
If it is 8x weaker then that would make Prime AM 31 Megatons(3.91x8)
But I don’t think that should be used

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

What if Endeavor had two keys? One for the Pre-War, one for Post-War, wouldn’t that solve the scaling issue, maybe Endeavor just got stronger

 

[TheRustyOne]

That introduce another problem, how strong is Endeavor Pre War?

And how is it that Endeavor spent most of his life training and ended up in his Pre-War stats, yet in just a few months he's now comparable to All Might?

Is it even implied that he's still getting stronger, can we even do something like that?