Issues with scaling for the MHA verse

[Therefir]

All this discussion is meaningless since we already know Todoroki can take hits from Iida's Recipro Burst, he has always been extremely durable, and Deku not having his fingers broken wouldn't have changed the result of his punch.

I never said Base Izuku should thousands of times weaker than his 5%.

You have already forgotten the long discussion we had a few months ago, in which you tried to downgrade base Deku to 9-B/9-A because Bakugo's small explosions could hurt him. And from what I have been reading in this thread, you haven't changed your opinion in any way.

 

[Earthyboy]

You have already forgotten the long discussion we had a few months ago, in which you tried to downgrade base Deku to 9-B/9-A because Bakugo's small explosions could hurt him. And from what I have been reading in this thread, you haven't changed your opinion in any way.

That should definitely not count. That was literally months ago. Why are you assuming I'm using an argument from a discussion from I conceded? That is by all accounts strawmanning.

All this discussion is meaningless since we already know Todoroki can take hits from Iida's Recipro Burst, he has always been extremely durable, and Deku not having his fingers broken wouldn't have changed the result of his punch.

Okay cool, you basically conceded your other points. But the problem with this is that Todoroki was literally swaying after getting kicked with a hit like that. He probably shouldn't scale. He was literally almost unconscious.

 

[Therefir]

Why are you assuming I'm using an argument from a discussion from I conceded?

Because that's literally all you still have, either Deku is 8-C+, or he is 9-B, there's no middle ground or other feats you can use to say you're arguing with different points.

That's why I will never agree to such a downgrade, unless Damage is planning to downgrade 5% and everyone else alongside base Deku. My problem was never the tier itself, but the colossal difference it would create between characters, their durability, and their power-ups.

But the problem with this is that Todoroki was literally swaying after getting kicked with a hit like that. He probably shouldn't scale. He was literally almost unconscious.

What? Todoroki was perfectly fine after the battle, he let himself get captured by Iida in order to trap him in ice, he even stated himself. Why do you have to make Olympic-level gimnastics to support your points?

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

That statement doesn't seem to be in the manga, and the One-Point Bots can run through walls completely undamaged.

The robots can also withstand a tail attack from Ojiro.

Deku not only required a weapon but implied he used its own momentum against it. One Point bots are also like Wall level or at best 9A by charging. Deku not being able to just punch it is a pretty telling showing when his 5% scales to people who can break metal in one strike.

The fact that Ojiro couldn’t instantly destroy it makes no sense since he would’ve had to take it down to get into UA.

 

[Earthyboy]

Because that's literally all you still have, either Deku is 8-C+, or he is 9-B, there's no middle ground or other feats you can use to say you're arguing with different points.

I basically confirmed that I no longer think Izuku should be a thousand times weaker in Base. You shouldn't be arguing that. I still never claimed he should be a thousand times weaker. You can't just say I did because that's the conclusion you made. That is 100% ridiculous.

That's why I will never agree to such a downgrade, unless Damage is planning to downgrade 5% and everyone else alongside base Deku.

You won't agree to the downgrade because you don't personally believe it'd make sense? That's literally just the Argument of Incredulity, where you don't wanna personally believe something because it contradicts some headcanon you made.

My problem was never the tier itself, but the colossal difference it would create between characters, their durability, and their power-ups.

You can't just say Izuku should be 8-C+ because he can't be 9-B. That doesn't mean 8-C+ is valid. I don't even know why you're against 9-B other than because it goes against your headcanon.

 

[Therefir]

Deku not only required a weapon but stated he used its own momentum against it. The fact that Ojiro couldn’t instantly destroy it makes no sense since he would’ve had to take it down to get into UA.

Again, I need the chapter and page where he stated this because I can't found it in the manga. In real life using a melee weapon like a bat would only deliver a hit three times stronger than your average punch, so it's impossible for Deku to be considerably weaker than the weapon he used.

You only need to paralize or make them unable to move the robots in order to get points from them, Invisible Girl and Mineta have already proved that, and the robots can't get up by themselves once they have fall.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Again, I need the chapter and page where he stated this because I can't found it in the manga. In real life using a melee weapon like a bat would only deliver a hit three times stronger than your average punch, so it's impossible for Deku to be considerably weaker than the weapon he used.

You only need to paralize or make them unable to move the robots in order to get points from them, Invisible Girl and Mineta have already proved that, and the robots can't get up by themselves once they have fall.

So Deku is potentially 3x weaker than a one point bot?

Then I suppose Ojiro didn’t destroy them and nothing implies he’s that strong.

Look assuming we can’t figure out a logical rating for Deku then his base should be unknown.

 

[Therefir]

You won't agree to the downgrade because you don't personally believe it'd make sense? That's literally just the Argument of Incredulity, where you don't wanna personally believe something because it contradicts some headcanon you made.

My headcanon? Deku being much weaker than his 5% and his durability would contradict part of the plot itself, he has many feats in terms of damaging other characters and taking hits that prove he is not that weaker compared to his 5%.

You can't just say Izuku should be 8-C+ because he can't be 9-B. That doesn't mean 8-C+ is valid. I don't even know why you're against 9-B other than because it goes against your headcanon.

I just put that as an example, the only thing I believe is that the difference between base Izuku and his 5% isn't big at all.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

My headcanon? Deku being much weaker than his 5% and his durability would contradict part of the plot itself, he has many feats in terms of damaging other characters and taking hits that prove he is not that weaker compared to his 5%.

What many feats does he have? The only one I recall is head butting Todoroki which didn’t seem to do much and merely made him stumble back when he was already weakened and busy flashbacking.

 

[Therefir]

So Deku is potentially 3x weaker than a one point bot?

Then I suppose Ojiro didn’t destroy them and nothing implies he’s that strong.

Look assuming we can’t figure out a logical rating for Deku then his base should be unknown.

He is not 3 times weaker than the One-Point Bot, he is 3 times weaker than whatever amount of power he would need to cut it in half. The robot can't damage itself with its own strength.

What does that have to do with it? Ojiro can hurt a hardened Kirishima.

 

[Therefir]

What many feats does he have? The only one I recall is head butting Todoroki which didn’t seem to do much and merely made him stumble back when he was already weakened and busy flashbacking.

Breaking a robot that some of his classmates were unable to break with a single hit. Weaker classmates than him like Uraraka being able to block attacks that can injure characters with comparable durability.

Aizawa stating that they barely got any stronger after three months of training, and therefore, making U.A. beginnings students not that much weaker than their Joint Training Arc selves.

 

[Earthyboy]

My headcanon? Deku being much weaker than his 5% and his durability would contradict part of the plot itself, he has many feats in terms of damaging other characters and taking hits that prove he is not that weaker compared to his 5%.

Can you provide consistent examples that I haven't already addressed? You can't just say there are examples without showing them. The burden is on you to showcase those said examples.

I just put that as an example, the only thing I believe is that the difference between base Izuku and his 5% isn't big at all.

Okay? You need proof that the difference isn't that big, to begin with.

Breaking a robot that some of his classmates were unable to break with a single hit. Weaker classmates than him like Uraraka being able to block attacks that can injure characters with comparable durability.

The only reason Izuku broke a robot was that he took a piece of steel and used his own momentum and natural strength to damage the robot. He already said that the robot was fragile, to begin with. It's easy to guess as to why he broke it. I'm pretty sure @Insert_creative_name_here_12 already explained why that's wrong.

Aizawa stating that they barely got any stronger after three months of training, and therefore, making U.A. beginnings students not that much weaker than their Joint Training Arc selves.

This could probably just be an example of PIS, an outlier, or it could actually be true if there's nothing that contradicits it.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

He is not 3 times weaker than the One-Point Bot, he is 3 times weaker than whatever amount of power he would need to cut it in half. The robot can't damage itself with its own strength.

What does that have to do with it? Ojiro can hurt a hardened Kirishima.

Isn’t that unquantifiable?

Ojiro didn’t harm Kirishima as far as I can tell he just made his head turn with his strike.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Breaking a robot that some of his classmates were unable to break with a single hit. Weaker classmates than him like Uraraka being able to block attacks that can injure characters with comparable durability.

Aizawa stating that they barely got any stronger after three months of training, and therefore, making U.A. beginnings students not that much weaker than their Joint Training Arc selves.

Deku’s classmates are largley featless. The only ones who are shown not to break the one point bot are Ojiro who is almost featless and Iida who has several other feats of shattering metal so it makes no sense and should be an outlier.

JT takes place months after the camp arc and is after most of the students had ramped up their training. What durability feats does Mina have again? From what I remember it’s just getting stabbed by a needle from Slice.

 

[Damage3245]

Also, this is something I will have to bring up in my CRT but base Deku being treated as the universal standard that all Pro Heroes need to scale to needs to be dropped.

I've looked at half a dozen Pro Hero profiles that just say "Should be superior to Deku", and I'm sure there's more.

 

[Therefir]

Okay? You need proof that the difference isn't that big, to begin with.

If there was an actual big difference, Deku would have been unable to even hurt and push Todoroki away.

If this massive difference truly existed, breaking the robot would be completely impossible for him.

The only reason Izuku broke a robot was that he took a piece of steel and used his own momentum and natural strength to damage the robot.

Deku never stated the robot's momentum played a huge difference in the manga, and it's already proven their own momentum can't hurt themselves, they can charge through walls like they were nothing.

This could probably just be an example of PIS, an outlier, or it could actually be true if there's nothing that contradicits it.

Of course, it's only an outlier when it suits you.

Ojiro didn’t harm Kirishima as far as I can tell he just made his head turn with his strike.

There's a bruise on Kirishima's cheeks after the attack.

The only ones who are shown not to break the one point bot are Ojiro who is almost featless and Iida who has several other feats of shattering metal so it makes no sense and should be an outlier.

The material used in the robots could be just stronger than the steel door that Iida destroyed, this argument makes no sense unless you were 100% sure they are made of the same material.

What durability feats does Mina have again?

She can withstand Slice's projectiles, which can pierce Dark Shadow's body. I also doubt she is less durable than Kyoka but that just my opinion.

 

[Therefir]

Also, this is something I will have to bring up in my CRT but base Deku being treated as the universal standard that all Pro Heroes need to scale to needs to be dropped.

I've looked at half a dozen Pro Hero profiles that just say "Should be superior to Deku", and I'm sure there's more.

I'm perfectly fine with that, there are multiple Pro Heroes who don't focus on physical strength like Deku, and there's simply no connection between them other than "He is just a student, while they are Pro Heroes".

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

There's a bruise on Kirishima's cheeks after the attack.


The material used in the robots could be just stronger than the steel door that Iida destroyed, this argument makes no sense unless you were 100% sure they are made of the same material.


She can withstand Slice's projectiles, which can pierce Dark Shadow's body. I also doubt she is less durable than Jiro but that just my opinion.

So Ojiro’s attacks are stronger than hardened Kirishima’s and Tetsutetsu’s but can’t break a one point bot? One of Ojiro’s showings is wrong.

Iida’s other metal shattering feat is him oneshotting what seems to be a three pointer. One point bots are also stated to be fragile so I highly doubt they’re made of something strong like steel.

Mina got stabbed by one in her leg and went down. When did Slice stab Dark Shadow? I watched the fight and didn’t see anything like that.

 

[Earthyboy]

Also, this is something I will have to bring up in my CRT but base Deku being treated as the universal standard that all Pro Heroes need to scale to needs to be dropped.

I've looked at half a dozen Pro Hero profiles that just say "Should be superior to Deku", and I'm sure there's more.

I agree with this. It's basically an Association Fallacy.

 

[Earthyboy]

Deku never stated the robot's momentum played a huge difference in the manga, and it's already proven their own momentum can't hurt themselves, they can charge through walls like they were nothing.

His momentum actually did play a difference. He basically uses the weight of the steel plate to slice the robot apart. Obviously, the thing would be heavier than Izuku naturally, so it's gonna have more of an effect if he throws it a high enough speed than simply punching. This is known as kinetic energy.

If there was an actual big difference, Deku would have been unable to even hurt and push Todoroki away.

If this massive difference truly existed, breaking the robot would be completely impossible for him.

Presumably, the difference is already huge given how his grip strength is largely reduced. Not only that the effectiveness of the punch is reduced as well given how his knuckles are broken. He's basically punching Todoroki with a broken hand.

She can withstand Slice's projectiles, which can pierce Dark Shadow's body. I also doubt she is less durable than Kyoka but that just my opinion.

There's a difference between simple blunt force and targeting a small surface area on an object. Mina's leg was also heavily pierced by Slice's projectiles, she shouldn't scale, to begin with.

 

[Therefir]

So Ojiro’s attacks are stronger than hardened Kirishima’s and Tetsutetsu’s but can’t break a one point bot? One of Ojiro’s showings is wrong.

Iida’s other metal shattering feat is him oneshotting what seems to be a three pointer. One point bots are also stated to be fragile so I highly doubt they’re made of something strong like steel.

I don't remember Kirishima breaking a One-Point Bot in a single hit, thought they can certainly dig through a Zero Point Bot with an unknown amount of hits.

The manga never shows what Iida's kicking or how much exactly he destroyed, in the Sports Festival we can see more clearly a One Point Bot taking a kick from Iida. The robots can destroy walls with ease, so if they're fragile the teachers are probably comparing them to offensive Quirks like Aoyama's Navel Laser.

 

[Therefir]

His momentum actually did play a difference. He basically uses the weight of the steel plate to slice the robot apart. Obviously, the thing would be heavier than Izuku naturally, so it's gonna have more of an effect if he throws it a high enough speed than simply punching. This is known as kinetic energy.

I still have yet to see where and when Izuku specifies all of that, this is just an interpretation/explanation of what happened. Tt could be valid, it's just that Deku never actually explained he needed all that to defeat the robot.

Presumably, the difference is already huge given how his grip strength is largely reduced. Not only that the effectiveness of the punch is reduced as well given how his knuckles are broken. He's basically punching Todoroki with a broken hand.

I have to remind you that Deku having an entire broken arm didn't make him unable to clash with Muscular, so the difference should be practically ineligible in Todoroki's case.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

I don't remember Kirishima breaking a One-Point Bot in a single hit, thought they can certainly dig through a Zero Point Bot with an unknown amount of hits.

The manga never shows what Iida's kicking or how much exactly he destroyed, in the Sports Festival we can see more clearly a One Point Bot taking a kick from Iida. The robots can destroy walls with ease, so if they're fragile the teachers are probably comparing them to offensive Quirks like Aoyama's Navel Laser.

Kirishima did in his flashback during his fight with Rappa.

Iida is shown in a wide image kicking a missile from a three pointer and on that same page is shown kicking a bot claiming he’s gained more points. So Ojiro isn’t wall level but can harm Kirishima who eats explosions from Bakugou? Iida isn’t wall level but can bust apart metal and with Kirishima one shot Wolfram’s pillars?

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

I'm putting the image here again: Iida fighting and seemingly one shotting a 3 pointer. Even if you disagree with this for some reason we see him one shot a 2 pointer in the anime.

Kirishima oneshots a villain bot

 

[Damage3245]

I'm putting the image here again: Iida fighting and seemingly one shotting a 3 pointer. Even if you disagree with this for some reason we see him one shot a 2 pointer in the anime.

It doesn't help that the manga panel has most of the impact / damage off-screen.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

It doesn't help that the manga panel has most of the impact / damage off-screen.

That doesn't really mean anything though. Based on Iida's dialogue he must have incapped it with that one blow especially since the panel is directly after Deku's arrival in the wide shot.

 

[Earthyboy]

I still have yet to see where and when Izuku specifies all of that, this is just an interpretation/explanation of what happened. Tt could be valid, it's just that Deku never actually explained he needed all that to defeat the robot.

He doesn't have to state something for it to be true. It's called an inference and it's common sense. If he was capable of outputting a force equivalent to that it would be pointless to just use the steel panel.

I have to remind you that Deku having an entire broken arm didn't make him unable to clash with Muscular, so the difference should be practically ineligible in Todoroki's case.

The problem with that is that 100% is so exponentially powerful that a broken arm hardly would make a difference. All Might could change the weather with just the force of his punch. That combined with a semi functional limb should be enough for Izuku to stay in the competition, at least for a while. But apparently, Izuku's broken arm did actually make a difference as Izuku stated his arm was weaker, and Muscular also stated his punch was weaker.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

So are we done with base Deku downscaling from 5% now?

 

[Earthyboy]

So are we done with base Deku downscaling from 5% now?

Pretty much. Unless there's anything that Therefir wants to add to the table.

 

[Insert_creative_name_here_12]

Good so Damage how's the CRT coming along? Do you need any help?

 

[Damage3245]

Good so Damage how's the CRT coming along? Do you need any help?

There are a lot of profiles to cover. I'll just post the thread when I can and we can go through characters in batches, starting with the teachers.

 

[Damage3245]

Thread is just about ready to be made, but before I post it can somebody remind me what our current standards are for kinetic energy and giant-sized characters? I thought that there were some revisions recently regarding when to use kinetic energy just when a character is big to find their AP, but I'm not sure what the conclusion was.

 

[LordTracer]

If these are the revisions you’re referring to, there doesn’t seem to be much of a conclusion yet.

 

[Damage3245]

Alright. Just because a few profiles have a scaling chain based around gigantic villains. I'll leave those characters out of it for now.

 

[Damage3245]

Here is the thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/my-hero-academia-scaling-revisions-pro-hero-edition.111358/

Shall I close this one?

 

[LordTracer]

Yeah, probably.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Closing this thread is a good idea since the Shigaraki stuff is on hold, a new thread can be made when new information comes out.

 

[Damage3245]

Okay. Closing it.