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My Hero Academia: Lower Tier Upgrades

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The attack we see is already what he has decayed, the shockwave is coming from Re-Destro after the orbs are already heavily weakened. Shigaraki is directly touching them and gets basically squashed between them in a clap. He is at the epicenter as much as Re-Destro is.

Like, Re-Destro slams the orbs around Shigaraki’s body and he touches them directly to decay them before they create the shockwave. So he’s at the center of the shockwave, ground zero, and said shockwave is weaker because he was in direct contact with its source.

That weaker shockwave is 7-C
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That doesn't negate the fact he didn't tank the full attack we're shown. He could've only been hit by part of it, unless we're assuming that he took the full brunt of it then the shockwaves came out which is currently unsubstantiated within the calc or this thread.
 
Kingofwolves999 said:
Well I was going off Nighteye AP one shotting Rappa clones and Mirio being comparable but I guess you’re settling that in another thread so ignore me.
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Nighteye one shotted Rappa with his seals and Mirio has no reason to scale with Nighteye's base physical let alone his seals AP anyway
 
TheRustyOne said:
Fixed.

Pretty sure I'm dumber for forgetting that in the first place.
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Nah don't put yourself down at my level. Unrelated but i honestly think Jiro should have SubRel combat and attack speed for keeping up with Toga clones and intercepting AFO's attack with her sound waves that Hawks couldn't dodge. She shouldn't scale fully to the likes of Weakened AFO but should scale to those like Froppy and Uraraka. Thoughts?
 
Also i thought you have a bunch of LS calcs for the low tier too, why not include them in this Crt as well?
 
Duedate8898 said:
That doesn't negate the fact he didn't tank the full attack we're shown. He could've only been hit by part of it, unless we're assuming that he took the full brunt of it then the shockwaves came out which is currently unsubstantiated within the calc or this thread.
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I agree. I was actually planning on making a CRT at some point to address that particular bit of scaling.
 
The issue I want to address is the consistency of using this calc for rating 5% Izuku's AP.

Shattering the steel beam into pieces is only a City Block level portion of the feat. What makes this calc Multi-City Block level is the assumption that Izuku heated up the entire 536.579 cubic meters of steel up by 825°C using only the kinetic energy of his kick.

That's a pretty substantial transfer of energy. He's just seemingly performing a typical 5% kick and he imbued a volume of steel that big with Multi-City Block levels of thermal energy?

Does this level of energy exchange happen anywhere else in the manga?

I went back over the manga and looked at an assortment of 5% and 8% Izuku's feats when he interacts with objects instead of people.

1) Smashes a sofa into the air while training with Gran Torino.

2) Smashes a collection of knifes apart with his kick.

3) Kicks a boulder of cement apart.

4) Kicks a section of ground.

5) Kicking multiple walls to pieces here, here, here, and here.

When Izuku interacts with environment, nowhere is it suggested that the majority of the energy he's inflicting with his blows is thermal energy. He is not significantly raising the temperature of anything in any of the scenes. He's not super-heating any of Spinner's knives, or heating up the cement and bricks in the walls he kicks (which due to their lower density and smaller volume would require even less energy than the movie calc in order to be heated up to the same degree despite a higher specific heat capacity for the materials).

So why do we have this one scene where Izuku is heating up a large mass of steel by 825°C and nowhere in the manga does he do the same thing?

Well, one explanation which I think people generally don't like is that Izuku "heating up the steel" as he fragments it is just a flair of the movie. An animation effect to exaggerate the feat or without putting much thought into the physics involved. Like how objects can seemingly shatter neatly into perfect cubes as bizarre as that is.

Is this a likely explanation?

Well, yes, I think it is. As we all know, animation can be prone to exaggeration.

Take the scene of Deku's and Shotos' final clash from the Sports Festival arc. In the manga, Deku and Shoto are at best a few meters away from each other prior to their final clash.

In the anime, you'd be forgiven for thinking that Deku leapt damn near a hundred meters to reach Shoto judging by how far the distance between them suddenly became.

Not to mention that in the manga the walls that Cementoss makes are not that much largers than Deku and Shoto, and don't shatter into as much rubble - whereas in the anime the insanely huge amount of rubble created should be all means be land in the the crowd and killing hundreds from how many flying pieces of debris is created.


I'm aware we don't have a manga version of the scene in the film to directly compare it to 1 to 1, but what we do have is all of Izuku's other 5% feats listed further up. I'm not comparing the level of destruction he's causing so this does not fall under the AoE fallacy. The Multi-City Block level rating is coming from the effects of Izuku's own attacks on the environment so I'm paying attention specifically to the effects of Izuku's attacks on the environment. That can't be both relevant and irrelevant at the same time.

I'm not objecting to Izuku being Multi-City Block level via some other way, but the method used here does not seem to be representative of Izuku's actual capabilities as it is an inconsistency.
 
Duedate8898 said:
That doesn't negate the fact he didn't tank the full attack we're shown. He could've only been hit by part of it, unless we're assuming that he took the full brunt of it then the shockwaves came out which is currently unsubstantiated within the calc or this thread.
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I mean if that needs to be substantiated it can be.

He DID tank the attack we are shown, he is literally right in front of it, getting crushed by Re-Destro before it happens. He is point blank with the epicenter, the distance between him and the source of the shockwave you are seeing in the calc is 0.



Re-Destro pulls up, smashes his stress attack into Shigaraki, who partially decays the attack. After he decays it, the shockwave goes off and Shigaraki is pushed back.

He gets hit point blank with the attack that created the 7-C shockwave, his body is getting hit with the full brunt because the energy has to go through him to have made that shockwave in the first place.
 
I don't want to get into too many overlapping conversations, so I'll just address the 7-C Tomura part after I've gotten to a conclusion either way about the 8-A 5% Izuku calc.
 
Damage3245 said:
Does this level of energy exchange happen anywhere else in the manga?
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Nowhere in the manga do we get such a close look at the debris created.
Damage3245 said:
here
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This is the one I saw to be the closest look. And the rocks do have a little bit of a uh... quirk when it comes to the lighting in them. It could just be the shading, but there isn't that shading issue on anything else. Also, there's a bit too much stuff coming off of them for me to believe it's just dust, and not steam.
 
Duedate8898 said:
That doesn't negate the fact he didn't tank the full attack we're shown. He could've only been hit by part of it, unless we're assuming that he took the full brunt of it then the shockwaves came out which is currently unsubstantiated within the calc or this thread.
Click to expand...
He’s literally in the epicenter though. He blocks Re-Destro’s punch and starts Decaying it
 
Damage3245 said:
Snip
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Basically the issue you have is Izuku being shown to heat up objects with his kick here, despite never being shown to do so again?

While I don't personally have any issue with using those results, if it's truly problematic then I don't mind dropping it all together. I do understand the logic that they literally never do such a thing again, even within the movie itself. So I do understand why you feel iffy about it.

However, I've just updated the calculation and I also added a kinetic energy version as well. So, it'll need another evaluation.

As I felt my previous method of finding the "width" of the structure to be poorly done.

Anyone can see the previous version here if they want to compare. If the previous version is seen as more valid despite that, I'll revert these changes.

@CloverDragon03

As the one who evaluated the calculation, your opinion on this topic would be great.
 
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My line of reasoning with the temperature change end was that when the structure is broken apart, we see that it's heated up (as shown by how the chunks look when Deku breaks them apart). Given that it's never shown again, I suppose I wouldn't be actively against removing the temperature change end by virtue of this never happening again and thus it being able to be interpreted as just a visual effect. Not sure if I'd fully agree with that stance, but I can see it.

Kinetic energy should be fine. I'll leave an evaluation on the blog.
 
TheRustyOne said:
@Mazdoesstuff

Don't act like that, that's very disrespectful even if you didn't intend for it to be. You should watch what you say.
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Thank you.

The issue I brought up didn't have anything to do with how the calc was updated to produce a new result. Maz isn't just disrespectful here, they're also wrong.


I'll work on my next post now Rusty.
 
Damage3245 said:
Thank you.

The issue I brought up didn't have anything to do with how the calc was updated to produce a new result. Maz isn't just disrespectful here, they're also wrong.


I'll work on my next post now Rusty.
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Do you agree with the 700 ton Kinetic energy variant?
 
Duedate8898 said:
I would actually like to ask why we're scaling Shigraki to the full yield of Re-Destro's attack. Shouldn't we do the Square-inverse law thing for how much he actually tanked? Especially since Shigarki even at this point, doesn't have anything to actually scale him to Re-Destro's physicals in terms of AP or durability besides this.
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Shigaraki was hit point blank by the attack so I don’t think surface area matters here since he was the object hit to make the shockwave disperse. He was punched directly.
Duedate8898 said:
The other stuff I'll leave be for the most part, but I do also have to ask why in the 5% calc we'd believe that Deku can somehow generate heat with AFO. That's something that doesn't seem much supported by the manga last I checked, and appears to really inflate the value of that calc far beyond what it would normally be. While I understand we except the movies as canon, I don't think that means we just take them at face value like this, especially since that glowing effect appears all over that animator's style in the anime and movies whenever a high sakuga moment appears even when heat shouldn't be involved
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I also stated this a while ago, this just seems to be some artistic impression and I can pull up 100 clips of the same animator doing this same thing from 100 different anime.
 
TheRustyOne said:
To explain the 7-C scaling. Re-Destro claps/crushes Shigaraki between his Burden attack. The calculated shockwave is produced by this clapping attack from Re-Destro. You can actually see Shigaraki's cape in this panel, showing that he's without a doubt in the center of Re-Destro's attack.

The anime version makes this point even clearer.

I said Re-Destro was the center point in the calculation because we can see him in the panel, we can't see Shigaraki in that panel.
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Bro had to touch the attack to decay it how could he not at the center of it
 
Yes, Shigaraki destroys Re-Destro's Stress with his Decay, making it weaker. He needs physical contact with Re-Destro's Stress for his Decay to work.

Note: Shigaraki's decay weakened the attack and that is why we aren't scaling Shigaraki to Re-Destro (Which is an outlier as he's High 6-C), just to the calculation of the shockwave that was produced after Shigaraki decayed it. Had Shigaraki not decay the attack it's heavily implied he'd die as the attack would've been stronger.
 
I don't think Shigaraki being at the center of the attack or not was ever the point of contention for him scaling.

Anyway, will have my post up about the new calc here as soon as I can.
 
Damage3245 said:
I don't think Shigaraki being at the center of the attack or not was ever the point of contention for him scaling.

Anyway, will have my post up about the new calc here as soon as I can.
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Eh, it kinda was on my end. Cause I was thinking that the implication was that he tanked the damage that came from the 7-C calc but I'm seeing it now as the calc is a way to measure the bare minimum of what Shigiraki had to tank in order to block the attack as he decayed it. Which I'm bit iffy on but that is defintely more a personal taste thing than a legitimate concern. So I can drop any issues I have with that
 
Duedate8898 said:
Eh, it kinda was on my end. Cause I was thinking that the implication was that he tanked the damage that came from the 7-C calc but I'm seeing it now as the calc is a way to measure the bare minimum of what Shigiraki had to tank in order to block the attack as he decayed it. Which I'm bit iffy on but that is defintely more a personal taste thing than a legitimate concern. So I can drop any issues I have with that
Click to expand...

Okay, fair enough. I won't raise any issues with the 7-C part of the OP either here.
 
No need to force yourself if you're having issues, just trying to make sure the thread isn't lost to time.
 
The thing I wanted to address from the new K.E. calc is that the image that is used for finding the distance the steel beam travelled is scaling the beam on the far right of the screen.

The beam that Deku hit is the center beam. If this shows off the 3 frame timeframe for the distance the beam travelled then we can see that the middle beam did not cover that calced distance in that 3 frame timeframe. The calc needs to be updated to calc the K.E. for the beam that Deku hit.

Sorry the post is brief, but my head is killing me right now so that's my thoughts in a nutshell on the K.E. version.
 
Damage3245 said:
Snip
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It's clear that Wolfram is launching these beams at different points. The distance the beams travel here is far less compared to here. Despite the former having far more time compared to the latter. What I'm trying to show here is that they start off slow and quickly accelerate at a high speed.

Here is the full frame from the middle beam's movement. As you can see it's doing the same exact thing, a slow build up into a sudden blast off. Case in point, this frame to this frame is far less movement compared to this frame when Izuku hits it. Despite the fact both of them take place in two frame gaps.

The big reason why this one travels less visually is obvious, Izuku impacts the steel beam. Meaning it's not unreasonable to say it would've moved a similar distance to the others had he not impacted it with his kick. There is also the factor that Izuku is getting closer to the middle beam and the camera is following him.

Which is why I used the other beams instead. They travel at a good angle that I can calculate their speed without having to worry about that stuff.

I believe using the speed of the other beams is fine. I also don't see why Wolfram would throw three attacks with two being the same and the third one being slower for no reason. TLDR: We can see the complete movement of the other beams, while Izuku interrupts the middle beam's movement.

And I don't see any reason for the middle beam to be an outlier compared to the other beams he's launching alongside it.

But I'd like to hear @CloverDragon03 opinion on this topic as well.
 
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I'm just pointing out for the sake of accuracy the Calc is by definition using the wrong beam here.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
That doesn’t exactly address Rusty’s response…
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I don't think Rusty's response tackles the issue I have specifically with the calc.

The middle beam's movement being interrupted by Deku has nothing to do with calcing the other beam's K.E. as being more accurate.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Except it does. It means we don’t see the full distance it would’ve traveled in that timeframe because Deku intercepted its movement
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That's factually not the case. We do see how much movement it crossed during the proposed "3-frame timeframe" in the calc. What it should be doing though it not using the 3 frames that the other beam takes to cross the distance, but the full amount of frames it takes the middle beam to reach Deku.

Honestly it would be a pretty small downgrade to the current value by my estimation.
 
That’s kind of the problem. Because of the high speed movement involved, a large distance is traveled in even just one frame, so the fact that Deku intercepts its movement is actually a pretty big deal in this case. It means we lose out on quite a bit of movement it could’ve made within that frame
 
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