My Hero Academia: Lower Tier Upgrades

[Damage3245]

That’s kind of the problem. Because of the high speed movement involved, a large distance is traveled in even just one frame, so the fact that Deku intercepts its movement is actually a pretty big deal in this case. It means we lose out on quite a bit of movement it could’ve made within that frame

But how much more movement it could have made before Deku kicked it isn't relevant to the feat of Deku kicking it and destroying it. We need to calc the K.E. of the beam as it was when Deku kicked it, not the K.E. of the beam as it could have been if Deku didn't kick it.

Sorry if I'm not explaining it sufficiently well. I'm still majorly ill right now.

 

[CloverDragon03]

That’s fine. Hope you feel better soon.

The main point I’m trying to convey (hopefully I’m doing so well enough) is that you can only count how much time has passed in increments of 1 frame. I’m not a fan of using the beam that was intercepted because part of the frame that passes shows Deku intercepting the beam. In essence, we would be counting that as a whole frame of the beam moving, when the beam had not moved for the entirety of the frame (only some of it).

To put things into perspective, we’d essentially be saying it took 3 frames for it to move a distance that it actually took 2.5 frames to cross. These are not exact numbers, no (I’m just using these numbers as an example), but I hope this can make my point easier to conceptualize.

 

[Mapl3Sy4up]

Ok but now Rusty give us the LS of overpowering it

 

[Damage3245]

@Bruh; do not discuss spoilers in a CRT.

 

[Bruh]

@Bruh; do not discuss spoilers in a CRT.

Ok, noted

 

[TheRustyOne]

Not going to be as active right now as it's spoiler week, as such I usually avoid the wiki as much as I can during this time.

As I've explained, the movement of the middle beam is interrupted by Izuku smashing into it. However, just using these two frames would be incorrect. Since the distance traveled in those two frames is clearly less than the distance traveled between these two frames that happened later.

Both of them have a gap of two frames yet the latter moves a greater distance. I've explained and proven that their acceleration is not uniformed, meaning that using those frames will give inaccurate results. If we didn't have anything else then obviously using the latter frames would be alright as we'd have no other choice.

But we do have something else, we see how fast two other identical beams move in the same scene, and no one is interrupting their movements. Considering all of that, I fully believe that using the speed of the other two beams is just fine. I've also not seen anything to suggest they wouldn't be comparable.

They're launched together in the same scene and look identical. Their speed should be the same as well.

 

[Damage3245]

But we do have something else, we see how fast two other identical beams move in the same scene, and no one is interrupting their movements. Considering all of that, I fully believe that using the speed of the other two beams is just fine. I've also not seen anything to suggest they wouldn't be comparable.

The fact that they do not travel the same distance in the same timeframe is not evidence to you that the two aren't 1 to 1 comparable?

 

[Therefir]

The middle steel beam has very little time and motion to work with, and has large offsets between frames.

I don't recommend using it to calculate the power which Wolfram is throwing those pillars, this discussion is not unlike when Damage recommended me to use more frames to calculate the true motion of an object, rather than just the displacement of a single frame.

The other steel beams are better animated and more fluid, and that's why I agree with their use.

 

[Damage3245]

The middle steel bar has very little time and motion to work with, and has large offsets between frames.

I don't recommend using it to calculate the power which Wolfram is throwing those pillars, this discussion is not unlike when Damage recommended me to use more frames to calculate the true motion of an object, rather than just the displacement of a single frame.

The other steel bars are better animated and more fluid, it's as simple as that.

I do think that using more frames is more appropriate than a single frame.

But I wouldn't be in favor of using the wrong beam for the calculation just because they look similar instead of actually being proven to be similar. Just because it's easy doesn't mean it's right.

 

[TheRustyOne]

No one said it was easier, we've all mentions the issues with using the middle beam. Which is why we're saying using the other identical beam is more accurate.

I'd like to say I'm not certain if we can use this frame in the first place. That stylized as an impact frame, which means there's a chance it isn't accurate.

However, I did make another calc in this sandbox just to see how this works just by measuring the size and speed of the middle beam.

What do you think about it Damage? I obviously still prefer the other one, via the reasons explained above.

Might have to end up putting this to a vote if we can't agree on something.

I've just gotten rid of the temperature change stuff, not unless someone really thinks it should be used.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Bump.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't want to hold up the CRT because of one quibble with the calc, so I'll drop the objection for now since I can't argue it further at this time.



Regarding the arguments for scaling the 7-C calc to the other League of Villain members. While I can somewhat understand scaling Twice and Mr. Compress to Shigaraki for being caught up in the same shockwave as him - I am not in favor of scaling Himiko and Spinner based on off-screen fighting. Just because they've been battling Gigantomachia doesn't prove they're exactly as durable as Shigaraki is.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Snip

This would suggest they've managed to avoid getting hit in the entire month and a half since they've been fighting him. While Machia is holding back, he is still launching attacks strong enough to harm Shigaraki and he doesn't even care about the LoV at all.

So that means the only way that is possible is to say they never got hit a single time.

I find that idea to be far more absurd than just scaling them to their teammates for fighting against Machia. Especially since Twice was shown to get hit and has injures. He was the most careful out of all of them, making sure he didn't take damage equivalent to a broken arm since he was scared of melting.

If he got hit by attacks like this, I highly doubt Toga and Spinner were just super gods who didn't take any hits at all.

Basically what's more believable in this case?

 

[Kingofwolves999]

In the first fight with Machia, they’re shown pretty comparable to each other since they all survive Machia’s attack, likely direct hits as well given Himiko’s wounds and Compress getting grabbed and tossed. So idk how Compress would get more durable but she and Spinner wouldn’t when they all got their butts kicked the first time and then charged back in to fight him.

They all are shown capable of surviving his hits before the training, so they def would have kept up with Shigaraki and kept taking hits during it. He doesn’t care for the other members as much as Shigaraki but he still kicks their asses individually when training them.

 

[Damage3245]

This would suggest they've managed to avoid getting hit in the entire month and a half since they've been fighting him. While Machia is holding back, he is still launching attacks strong enough to harm Shigaraki and he doesn't even care about the LoV at all.

So that means the only way that is possible is to say they never got hit a single time.

I find that idea to be far more absurd than just scaling them to their teammates for fighting against Machia. Especially since Twice was shown to get hit and has injures. He was the most careful out of all of them, making sure he didn't take damage equivalent to a broken arm since he was scared of melting.

If he got hit by attacks like this, I highly doubt Toga and Spinner were just super gods who didn't take any hits at all.

Basically what's more believable in this case?

They don't have to have avoided getting hit the entire time. We just don't see them taking a Town level attack which you could plausibly argue for Twice and Mr. Compress but not for Spinner and Toga.

Also we don't even know if that shockwave here actually seriously harmed Shigaraki or if some other attack dealt to him off-screen gave him injuries.

 

[SeijiSetto]

just out of curiosity, looking at the sandboxes
deku's base is 8-A but his 5% is 8-A+? does that mean his base is downscaling to below 550 Tons?

 

[TheRustyOne]

Snip

Your reasoning isn't solid to me, as Machia isn't regulating his power beyond hurting Shigaraki. Saying that attack didn't harm him is baseless, it's an attack he launched that blew all of them away. It takes more assumptions to say it didn't hurt anyone because you don't like it.

Also, I forgotten that Machia was shown to have injured them during their initial fight as well. Mr. Compress even getting grabbed by him. There is no way I can by the fact they avoided getting hit by him ever again or anything like that. And there is nothing to suggest Machia would or can hold back his power based on who he hit.

Meaning their only method to not scale is to not get hit period.

just out of curiosity, looking at the sandboxes
deku's base is 8-A but his 5% is 8-A+? does that mean his base is downscaling to below 550 Tons?

TLDR: Characters that were 13 Tons become 237.32 Tons. Characters that are 26 Tons will become 711.97 Tons. Characters that are 41 Tons will scale higher.

As written in the OP. Base Izuku currently scales to 13 Tons.

 

[Damage3245]

Your reasoning isn't solid to me, as Machia isn't regulating his power beyond hurting Shigaraki. Saying that attack didn't harm him is baseless, it's an attack he launched that blew all of them away. It takes more assumptions to say it didn't hurt anyone because you don't like it.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say it didn't hurt anyone because I don't like it...

Also, I forgotten that Machia was shown to have injured them during their initial fight as well. Mr. Compress even getting grabbed by him. There is no way I can by the fact they avoided getting hit by him ever again or anything like that. And you lack anything to suggest Machia would hold back against them.

This doesn't really tell us anything useful as far as I can tell. It doesn't have anything to do with scaling them to 7-C.

Meaning their only method to not scale is to not get hit period.

This is the issue with trying to scale based on off-screen fights. We can't make assumptions either way when it comes to "They didn't get hit at all" or "They tanked hits that were equal to 7-C in power".

All I can say is that these characters don't have direct evidence of the feats necessary for them to scale. I find it better to err on the side of caution than make them all equal to Shigaraki just because they all fought Gigantomachia off-screen.

 

[CloverDragon03]

7-C is like the bare minimum power Gigantomachia has shown though. If they're taking hits from him (as shown by the fact that they're all injured), they're 7-C. It's that simple

 

[TheRustyOne]

Snip

"Saying that attack didn't harm him is baseless, it's an attack he launched that blew all of them away. It takes more assumptions to say it didn't hurt anyone because you don't like it."

My quote here is saying that's the only method for your claim here to make sense. Apologies if that didn't come off as clear.

"Also we don't even know if that shockwave here actually seriously harmed Shigaraki or if some other attack dealt to him off-screen gave him injuries."

It either did or didn't hurt him, if you didn't have any objections towards it I don't see why you'd even mention it.

They were 100% hurt by Machia who can hurt Shigaraki, who is 7-C. We see them with injuries, so it's not even an assumption anymore. His bare minimum strength is a massive threat to 7-C Shigaraki and as such they scale to being comparable to him. Since they're shown to be injured when fighting him.

 

[Damage3245]

7-C is like the bare minimum power Gigantomachia has shown though. If they're taking hits from him (as shown by the fact that they're all injured), they're 7-C. It's that simple

7-C is not Gigantomachia's bare minimum level of power. This calc puts a strike of his at Multi-City Block level when he first shows up in front of the League.

"Saying that attack didn't harm him is baseless, it's an attack he launched that blew all of them away. It takes more assumptions to say it didn't hurt anyone because you don't like it."

My quote here is saying that's the only method for your claim here to make sense. Apologies if that didn't come off as clear.

"Also we don't even know if that shockwave here actually seriously harmed Shigaraki or if some other attack dealt to him off-screen gave him injuries."

It either did or didn't hurt him, if you didn't have any objections towards it I don't see why you'd even mention it.

And the evidence that it hurt them is what? That it just blew them away?

I'm sorry if I was unclear in addressing this section of the OP but here is a better job hopefully:

We even see Machia launch a shockwave attack that hits all of them, showing that Mr. Compress and Twice have comparable durability to Shigaraki.

Characters being hit by an attack at the same time does not necessarily mean they have the same durability. We do not see the direct aftermath of what happens to them once they're hit with this shockwave.

They were 100% hurt by Machia who can hurt Shigaraki, who is 7-C. We see them with injuries, so it's not even an assumption anymore. His bare minimum strength is a massive threat to 7-C Shigaraki and as such they scale to being comparable to him. Since they're shown to be injured when fighting him.

The scan you link there showing the after of the fighting is not directly after the shockwave, but after the fight has continued since then.

 

[CloverDragon03]

7-C is not Gigantomachia's bare minimum level of power. This calc puts a strike of his at Multi-City Block level when he first shows up in front of the League.

Gigantomachia's bare minimum level of power is what he used to hurt Shigaraki, as shown on the profiles. Currently his AP is 8-A to High 6-C, but because of this new calc, it'd be 7-C to High 6-C. Using the 8-A calc makes no sense because you're using this for the same Gigantomachia that hurt Shigaraki

 

[Damage3245]

Gigantomachia's bare minimum level of power is what he used to hurt Shigaraki, as shown on the profiles. Currently his AP is 8-A to High 6-C, but because of this new calc, it'd be 7-C to High 6-C. Using the 8-A calc makes no sense because you're using this for the same Gigantomachia that hurt Shigaraki

I don't think that holds up. Why couldn't Gigantomachia be using 8-A levels of strength to shatter the ground, and 7-C levels of strength to injure Tomura?

 

[CloverDragon03]

I don't think that holds up. Why couldn't Gigantomachia be using 8-A levels of strength to shatter the ground, and 7-C levels of strength to injure Tomura?

Because both cases are literally when he's at his lowest morale state, due to being utterly disappointed in how Tomura doesn't come close to succeeding All For One in his eyes

 

[TheRustyOne]

Just in case I'd like to mention that Machia just increasing his power from the initial fight is impossible.

Shigaraki states that Machia has slowed down by a lot and that he's a lot closer to taking him down compared to the beginning. Now, we know Machia is still holding back and can force himself to be stronger, but that's irrelevant to the scaling here. Machia's been attacking them at the same level of power, which can harm the 7-C Shigaraki for around a month and a half. And we can see they're all injured from fighting Machia.

Also, him performing a 8-A doesn't cap his power at that moment as 8-A, he can still be 7-C.

I believe the 7-C scaling is still solid here.

 

[Bruh]

TLDR: Characters that were 13 Tons become 237.32 Tons. Characters that are 26 Tons will become 711.97 Tons. Characters that are 41 Tons will scale higher.

Baseline Small Town for Transformed Chimera, Rappa, Fatgum, Nighteye's seal and Final form Overhaul ?

 

[TheRustyOne]

Baseline Small Town for Transformed Chimera, Rappa, Fatgum, Nighteye's seal and Final form Overhaul ?

I've already explained the Nighteye stuff.

I say no, the gap is too high, over 1.4x. Even a 1.3x gap gets heavily contested. I'd rather not deal with any upscaling stuff either.

 

[Bruh]

I've already explained the Nighteye stuff.

I say no, the gap is too high, over 1.4x. Even a 1.3x gap gets heavily contested. I'd rather not deal with any upscaling stuff either.

Ok , also PLF Lemillion should be 7-C in the Sandbox

 

[TheRustyOne]

Ok , also PLF Lemillion should be 7-C in the Sandbox

7-C is in a different sandbox in the OP, right below the 7-C Scaling.

The 8-A ratings you see for them in the main sandbox is just in case the 7-C stuff fell through.

 

[Damage3245]

I'll really try my best to explain why I don't view the proposed scaling as "solid", though I'll need time to work on a proper argument so we don't go around in circles over the same points.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Here are my full thoughts on the scaling, ahead of time.

Spoiler: 7-C Scaling

We learn that the League of Villains have been training with Gigantomachia for over 1 month at this point. Spinner states that they've been rotating between their members, not including Shigaraki. All of them have faced off against Gigantomachia, and we got a little peak of this.

We see Twice, Shigaraki, and Mr. Compress engaging Machia in battle. They are shown to be injured fighting him, including Shigaraki who is 7-C. We even see Machia launch a shockwave attack that hits all of them, showing that Mr. Compress and Twice have comparable durability to Shigaraki.

While Toga and Spinner are injury free, that's only because they weren't fighting him during this period of time. However, early on we do indeed see they're injured from fighting Machia. They've all taken attacks from him, even his indirect attacks with shockwaves can harm them and Shigaraki.

The fact they have injuries from fighting Machia shows that they haven't just been avoiding getting damaged. No, they're taking the same attacks from Machia that can harm Shigaraki. And we know that Machia has actually been slowing down since the beginning of this fight, so it isn't like he's massively changing his power.

So even back than he was hitting them with 7-C level of power.

We've also seen multiple members of the Liberation Army take hits from Gigantomachia, who was using even more power than when he fought Shigaraki. You can even see some Twice Doubles get sent flying by Machia as well that didn't instantly melt. Though, they probably melted after hitting the ground or whatever.

Skeptic's puppets were also shown to take a direct hit from this Machia and not instantly fall to pieces.

They aren't scaling to Machia's level, they're scaling due to the fact the amount of power Machia is using here is strong enough to harm Shigaraki. While he was holding back during the League's fight with him, he still harmed Shigaraki and was a massive threat to him. Machia obviously scales above all of them greatly.

All of the League, Spinner, Mr. Compress, Twice, and Toga should have 7-C durability via scaling from Shigaraki due to their training with Machia. Their AP will scale accordingly if they managed to harm anyone who could physically harm them as well.

The only arguments I can think of against this scaling (At least as of this moment) can be either Machia was changing his power output depending on who he hit, which is absurd since he didn't care for anyone save Shigaraki and even he was severely injured and almost killed by Machia.

Or that they managed to avoid any actual direct hits, which is also equally absurd without any backing. We're shown they have sustained damage from fighting Machia, by this same logic we can say Shigaraki was never hit directly either. Which means even glancing indirect blows from Machia are 7-C.

Also, Shigaraki is the fastest of the group as shown during the Twice double altercation in Re-Destro's tower. None of them were able to react to Re-Destro's attack, while Dabi and Mr. Compress didn't even catch how he moved. So there is no way they can avoid damage from Machia better than Shigaraki can.

This line of reasoning is baseless without any evidence to support it, which doesn't exist. In fact, Mr. Compress was shown to be grabbed easily by Machia so it's pretty obvious he could land direct contact with them.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Bump.

 

[Damage3245]

@TheRustyOne; I've thought it over and there's already so much in MHA scaling that I disagree with that getting bogged down in an argument over one part of it won't make me feel any better.

If I have any issues with how the MHA verse is rated, I'm better off trying to address them after the series has been completed. I'll withdraw any objections I have to the thread though I can't vote in agreement with it.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Snip

That's a perfectly reasonable stance to take right now if you really feel that way. Better to tackle something on your terms, especially since I believe you already have so much on your plate already. Despite my stance on this CRT and others like this, my own personal feelings on this matter are actually completely different.

So I do have an interest in what kind of thread you'll make in the future.

Thank you for your time.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

So do we still need some staff approval?

 

[TheRustyOne]

I'm uncertain, we already have two agreements on staff but maybe we could use at least one more?

Assuming it's needed in the first place?

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Bump

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Nah but really, can we either add the changes or get another admin to affirm, we’re just kinda vibing rn.

 

[TheRustyOne]

Bump. I live again.

@DemonGodMitchAubin

If you can find the time, could you give your own thoughts on the OP?

 

[Mapl3Sy4up]

Bump. I live again.

@DemonGodMitchAubin

If you can find the time, could you give your own thoughts on the OP?

HE LIVES