Metal Gear: Many Potential Changes (No Promises)

[Chariot190]

The Psycho Mantis stuff and having Volgin's feat only scale to himself I think should be their own CRTs, lets just get this one quickly evaluated first

we already had the latter, it's like 2 years old and just hasnt been updated
The Psycho Mantis one was me giving you an out

Don't forget Venom Snake practically no-selling being inside of a tank as it gets totally obliterated by some random assholes rolling up along the road.

That one is a bit odd, he takes 0 damage while in it if it explodes, but if you get out, the explosion does like 90% health.

 

[Ednaxel2]

we already had the latter, it's like 2 years old and just hasnt been updated

If the thread ain't closed yet we could go back

The Psycho Mantis one was me giving you an out

It sounds like a good feat

That one is a bit odd, he takes 0 damage while in it if it explodes, but if you get out, the explosion does like 90% health.

Either way the Cocoon feat is still superior to both this and the Metal Gear D feats

 

[Chariot190]

If the thread ain't closed yet we could go back

It's been closed for years, and not like it matters, this is wiki policy, unless MGS has a UES, there's nothing that can be done about it.

Either way the Cocoon feat is still superior to both this and the Metal Gear D feats

Cocoon has a few issues with it too, i mean personally i'm fine with it, but like 4 mods arent

 

[Ednaxel2]

It getting 8-C changes everything.
The 8-B Volgin feat, while legit, doesn't actually scale to anyone's AP but his own. Fire, ice, and electrical attacks are indeed AP, but are absolute dogshit to scale. Big Boss does tank it but it's treated as "elecricity resistance", and doesn't inherently mean he can tank a punch with that same level of energy.

While the AP part is true, Big Boss is able to physically damage Volgin who's entire body can handle all of that energy anyways

 

[Chariot190]

Not really, it's why he has those scars, wears a rubber suit, and he actively has to release it. His body actually can't handle it explicitly.

Additionally, no that isn't how it works. Lightning, ice, flame, heat attacks, all get scrutinized like this. The only MG character who gets away with these scalings to everything is Ursula and Mantis as it all comes from their psychonkinetic power.

 

[Ednaxel2]

Additionally, no that isn't how it works. Lightning, ice, flame, heat attacks, all get scrutinized like this. The only MG character who gets away with these scalings to everything is Ursula and Mantis as it all comes from their psychonkinetic power.

Electricity is shown to be coursing around Snake after Volgin shocks him and he's actually greatly harmed by the electricity alone (not just Volgin's electrically powered punches) at best it's minor resistance to it. Wet and bruised bodies also have electrical resistances lowered

 

[Chariot190]

Electricity is shown to be coursing around Snake after Volgin shocks him

Indeed, this changes nothing. We already know he got shocked, nobody is saying he didn't.

and he's actually greatly harmed by the electricity alone

Being electrocuted hurts

(not just Volgin's electrically powered punches)

This isn't a thing, Volgin's punches aren't "powered" by it. Unless you just mean he uses it alongside his blows, in which, yeah he do.

at best it's minor resistance to it.

Uh, no, it's a 10m volt current. That isn't "minor", that's actual ******* insanity. The fact he didn't instantly die is ludicrous, bro's got better elec res than Goku Venom and PW BB also have multi-million volt stun sticks and cyborg hands, so dumb as shit elec res is very consistent. MGR Raiden also has a multi-mil stun stick.

Wet and bruised bodies also have electrical resistances lowered

Indeed, which inversely, makes his resistance even better.

When I say "electrical resistance", I'm not talking in a scientific manner, like current flow and shit, I mean "Resistance to [ability]" we slap on profiles.

Electricity, heat, and so on, are very problematic when it comes to scaling to physical durability. As per wiki standards due to wacky joules and energy bullshit, we just don't scale these things to durability without extra proof, Snake getting pummled would just be listed as "Resistance to Electricity Manipulation (Could survive multiple attacks that hold 10,000,000 volts)" or something.

Which, is why, calcing some non-bullshit caveat feats, not right this second, but eventually, would be needed. And there's a LONG list of decent feats, I could list some off if you'd like, that don't hold this issue.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Electricity is shown to be coursing around Snake after Volgin shocks him and he's actually greatly harmed by the electricity alone (not just Volgin's electrically powered punches) at best it's minor resistance to it. Wet and bruised bodies also have electrical resistances lowered

Why do bruised bodies have a resistance anyways?

I CANT READ

 

[Ednaxel2]

This isn't a thing, Volgin's punches aren't "powered" by it. Unless you just mean he uses it alongside his blows, in which, yeah he do.

Yeah

When I say "electrical resistance", I'm not talking in a scientific manner, like current flow and shit, I mean "Resistance to [ability]" we slap on profiles.

Electricity, heat, and so on, are very problematic when it comes to scaling to physical durability. As per wiki standards due to wacky joules and energy bullshit, we just don't scale these things to durability without extra proof, Snake getting pummled would just be listed as "Resistance to Electricity Manipulation (Could survive multiple attacks that hold 10,000,000 volts)" or something.

That's a shame if that's really the standard

Which, is why, calcing some non-bullshit caveat feats, not right this second, but eventually, would be needed. And there's a LONG list of decent feats, I could list some off if you'd like, that don't hold this issue.

I would like to hear about it but best to say it in the discussion thread. This CRT has went far off topic

 

[Unknownnah]

got better elec res than Goku

And better Lifting Strength

Also, Liquid can survive the helicopter and REX blowing up so those might be worth calcing.

 

[Ednaxel2]

Bump

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Metal Gear D's multiplier​

TX-55 was able to fight against Snake during the events of Metal Gear, forcing him to use explosive as a means to actually harming it, it's even stated to be the ultimate weapon a couple times so it should scale to the 23.55 tons (City Block level). Fast forwarding into Metal Gear 2, the Metal Gear D is outright stated to be many times more powerful ("Many times" being accepted as 4x) so it should scale to 94.2 Tons (City Block level+).
Agree: Eseseso, Minos_the_Judge
Neutral:
Disagree: Chariot190

Gray Fox tanks an vital explosion​

During Snake's fight against Gray Fox, Fox was able to tank the utter destruction of Metal Gear D while inside of it and went on to fight Snake shortly after. It's even stated in the guide for the newly released collection that the explosion shrapnel Metal Gear D and again Gray Fox was fine. This would scale the likes of Solid Snake and characters superior/equal to, or at least comparable to him up to Metal Gear D's durability.
An alternative would be the calculation which is only Building level: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Ednaxel2/Gray_Fox_tanks_the_destruction_of_Metal_Gear_D
Agree: Chariot190 (Calc) Eseseso, Minos_the_Judge (Vague)
Neutral:
Disagree:

MGS2 Raiden's multiplier​

The exoskeletons are stated to multiply the user's strength by several times ("Several times" being accepted as 3x). Raiden before the events of MGS2 is comparable to MGS1 Snake as he was trained through simulations of the Shadow Moses incident which are one to one with the actual events, with the Patriots hoping for him to turn out as the ultimate soldier after the test. Then during the events of MGS2 when he joins Foxhound, he equips the skull suit which is outfitted with an exoskeleton, thus MGS2 Raiden is >3x MGS1 Snake. If this alone gets accepted the characters would be City Block level+, but if the last two potential changes also get accepted the characters will get to Multi-City Block level much early on.
Agree: Eseseso, Minos_the_Judge
Neutral:
Disagree: Chariot190

Jetstream Sam isn't "at most" City level​

Throughout the course of MGRR, the bosses gain information on the last one defeated yet will still be confident in fighting Raiden. Jetstream Sam worked alongside the winds of destruction for awhile during the events between the main story of MGRR and Sam's DLC so he should know how powerful each of them are, yet was still confident in fighting Ripper Mode Raiden knowing Monsoon and Sundonwer failed to do so. Raiden did state Sam put everything he had into the fight and wanted to kill him so badly, meaning he did take Raiden as a serious threat and didn't mess around (like in his fight against the World Marshall officers in his opening DLC) so him being confident in fighting Raiden is not him being over confident.

There are other points such as: Raiden wanting to kill Sam "Well, I'm ready for it. Monsoon interrupted us before... But this time, I'm ending it", he would of course use his Ripper Mode state if wanting to do so. Raiden being out of breath and getting up from the floor right after the fight. The official Metal Gear Versus Battle wiki stating that it is a fact that both Sam and Raiden are worthy opponents to each other (Sorry for the low quality of it, it's in Sam's featured fact). Sam being confused on Monsoon taking on Raiden, stating "huh, you're the boss" in a joking manner which could imply he wasn't confident in Monsoon winning.
Agree: Eseseso, Minos_the_Judge
Neutral:
Disagree:

Ripper Mode​

When Raiden uses Ripper Mode he's able to defeat enemies in a single strike, with all enemies needing to be hit with 7 strikes. Excepts being the Hammerhead enemies needing 12 strikes in base and 2 in Ripper Mode, and the Gekko enemies needing 12 strikes in base and 2 in Ripper Mode. The guide for the game actually supports this stating it "enables him to inflict far greater damage, eliminating weaker opponents almost instantly". When downgrading Raiden's statistics by downgrading from his Ripper Mode state, his base should be at least 1/12th the power of his Ripper Mode state (it being within the 7 to 12 range) so his base should be (65.875 Megatons / 12 =) 5.4895833 Megatons (Small City level+) this would also downgrade the likes of Mistral and Khamsin.
Agree: Minos_the_Judge
Neutral: Eseseso
Disagree: Chariot190, SeijiSetto

Base Raiden is not comparable to Full Power Armstrong​

This is something used to debunk Ripper Mode's multiplier, as the current chain scaling is: Base Raiden =< Armstrong = Ripper Mode Raiden.

The reasoning for why Raiden scales comparably to Armstrong is that he's able to inflict moderate damage to him and can tank attacks, however the scenes in which he demonstrates this is against a more casual/suppressed Armstrong, until the last half where he fight Senator at his strongest. We see this as Armstrong lets his guard down: he doesn't finish Raiden off when he has the chance, helps him up the second he thinks he convinced Raiden and even hugging him (very similar to his fight against Sam). He gets more enraged after Raiden tricks as his voice shifts to being more ticked off, casually tanking hundreds of strikes from Raiden, sending Raiden into the air with one punch, and beat him up so badly he was unable to get up for a bit. Even after all of that Armstrong could possibly still have been holding taking off his glasses which could symbolize that now he's going all out (in contrast to his casually fights where he always wear his glasses). While Armstrong does state he wants to kill Raiden a few times, he said the same thing to Sam throughout their fight which we know he was more casual and had no intent to kill Sam but to recruit him. So overall it's at least: Base Raiden =< Suppressed Amrstrong < Full Power Armstrong ~ Ripper Mode Raiden. And at worst it's Base Raiden =< Suppressed Armstrong < Less Suppressed Armstrong< Full Power Armstrong ~ Ripper Mode Raiden.
Agree: Eseseso, Minos_the_Judge, Chariot190
Neutral:
Disagree:


Note: A few of these changes (if accepted) will require keys being made for some characters, which is already in the works from what I've hear.

Regarding Metal Gear D's Multiplier: Where is "many" accepted to be this, for this verse? We do not often hand out multipliers for such vague statements. I would disagree with this notion for now.

Regarding Gray Fox: This is a legitimate feat but I'm not sure why you'd propose a durability separate from the calc used. Additionally, I will note that even being inside of the Metal Gear would not make him scale to the full force of the attack.

Regarding Raiden's Multiplier: This is the same as the first. When we take statements like this, we have to consider what they can mean. "more powerful" could mean a huge litany of shit- it's an abstract value, one that does not inherently relate strictly to our Attack Potency system. For example, this could refer to a composite value of AP, durability, speed, range, etc- all compressed down to the estimation that Raiden is "several times more powerful". In light of this, I cannot accept non-specific multipliers like this.

Regarding Jetstream Sam: I may not have enough context to tackle this one because it does not adequately explain why he is at most City level to begin with. So... like... maybe, maybe not.

Regarding Ripper Mode: Far too reliant on game mechanics to justify a specific multiplier, no.

Regarding Raiden scaling to Armstrong: Mm. Neutral on this one, for now. "Holding back" is simply chosen as a convenient crutch to argue in some contexts, to handwave differing interpretations- this may be the case here or you may be right, I can't say.

 

[Chariot190]

Regarding Gray Fox: This is a legitimate feat but I'm not sure why you'd propose a durability separate from the calc used. Additionally, I will note that even being inside of the Metal Gear would not make him scale to the full force of the attack.

It isn't an attack.

It's just the vehicle he's in blowing up because video game, it took enough damage and exploded because it just did, resulting in the machine being fragmented while he was in it and lighting the whole area ablaze due to the blast upon which he walks out of the blast and fist fights snake to death

Using ISL here, if that's what you're thinking, is a tad tricky given the distance is in the negatives.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

"Attack", explosion, whatever you want to call it doesn't really change the point I'm making.

Using ISL here, if that's what you're thinking, is a tad tricky given the distance is in the negatives.

...No. Explosions have an origin point. It may be that it was inside of the Metal Gear he was in, and thus small. I note that the game displays this as a large amount of minor explosions that eventually cause the thing to break down.

 

[Ednaxel2]

Bump

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

D is better yeah, but "ultimate weapon" is about the fact it's a Metal Gear, and if you take the ultimate weapon line at face value, you'd have to retroactively include weapons that came chronologically before, which leads to huge contradictions.

How does it contradict anything really?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

How does it contradict anything really?

Because Sahelanthropus and Peace Walker make Metal Gear D look like a joke.

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

Because Sahelanthropus and Peace Walker make Metal Gear D look like a joke.

Sahelanthropus is ass, Skullface even said that its purpose was to scare people, and just because both mechs are bigger than D it doesn't mean that D has to be weaker. Plus, Peace Walker is also bigger than Rex, which is of course stronger.

 

[Chariot190]

How does it contradict anything really?

The fact it very blatantly doesn't have megaton lv durability like Peace Walker? Its maximum firepower and range is magnitudes below PW or Sahel? Its speed is like 10x less than Shagohad. It's weaker than Sahel physically too.

Every stat we know, pales compared to another MG's stat that predates it chronologically. It's, honestly, kind of fodder. It's better than TX-55, yeah, which is the weakest MG ever.
Ultimate Weapon is pretty evidently just talking about how MG's are the ultimate weapon, which they are, not that this specific MG is the best MG ever.

And ignoring how the statement was made before any other MG even existed in a meta sense (which ain't a good thing, that just cements it ain't exactly comparing it to others), it doesn't apply retroactively given the blatant discrepancy in official values (ultimate weapon, yet has less and even weaker nukes, and even less durability than Peace Walker, while also being less mobile? Ultimate weapon yet is only 45 km while Pupa and Shago is like 300km+ in speed? It can't even jump like Zeke. It can't fly like Crys. Lacks many notable traits that Sahel has that can only be beneficial like Archea. Has blatant weak armor on the legs in contrast to shit like PW, Zeke, Sahel, etc that don't have a blatant weakpoint in armor, etc)

Sahelanthropus is ass, Skullface even said that its purpose was to scare people, and just because both mechs are bigger than D it doesn't mean that D has to be weaker. Plus, Peace Walker is also bigger than Rex, which is of course stronger.

Yeah, it's spooky for good reason though.
And yet, PW predates D, so, it would be included in the statement, and yet, PW walks D in every known canon statistic except (long distance) movement speed (i say long because that thing can move like 150kmh in bursts).

And Sahel isn't ass what? It has a MHS gun that can punch a hole through a mountain, it can create weapons out of thin air, has wacky hax, and has a lot of the same stats as ******* REX.

REX is "stronger", in some categories, it isn't beating PW in every category. And PW is "taller", while also having like 1/5th the volume and mass, it'd be like comparing a 60kg 6'1'' lanky nerd vs. a 105kg 5'7'' jacked jock

 

[Ednaxel2]

Bump

 

[Ednaxel2]

Bump

 

[Ednaxel2]

Bump

 

[Minos_the_Judge]

where did the information about the difference of 6-7 times in Ripper Mode come from? I mean, do you have a video?

 

[Lacku]

So where are we at with this CRT?

 

[Lacku]

snip

Btw I was gonna ask are you still working on that MGS verse rework?

 

[Chariot190]

Btw I was gonna ask are you still working on that MGS verse rework?

MGS4 is hard to record footage for but yeah.

 

[Unknownnah]

where did the information about the difference of 6-7 times in Ripper Mode come from? I mean, do you have a video?

OBD calc

 

[Minos_the_Judge]

OBD calc

Link please

 

[Unknownnah]

Link please

Raiden's speed, Monsoon's telekenetic power & some Blade and Ripper Mode stuff | Naruto Forums

Published by Toratorn in the blog Toratorn's blog. Views: 75

web.archive.org

 

[Minos_the_Judge]

Raiden's speed, Monsoon's telekenetic power & some Blade and Ripper Mode stuff | Naruto Forums

Published by Toratorn in the blog Toratorn's blog. Views: 75

web.archive.org

There is no video in this calculation that proves these numbers. We need to test this with practice.

 

[Ednaxel2]

Bump

 

[Ednaxel2]

Bump

 

[McFriesGuy075]

bump

 

[NON-STOPPING_GAMER2009]

Metal Gear D's multiplier​

TX-55 was able to fight against Snake during the events of Metal Gear, forcing him to use explosive as a means to actually harming it, it's even stated to be the ultimate weapon a couple times so it should scale to the 23.55 tons (City Block level). Fast forwarding into Metal Gear 2, the Metal Gear D is outright stated to be many times more powerful ("Many times" being accepted as 4x) so it should scale to 94.2 Tons (City Block level+).
Agree: Eseseso, Minos_the_Judge
Neutral:
Disagree: Chariot190 @Mr._Bambu

Gray Fox tanks an vital explosion​

During Snake's fight against Gray Fox, Fox was able to tank the utter destruction of Metal Gear D while inside of it and went on to fight Snake shortly after. It's even stated in the guide for the newly released collection that the explosion shrapnel Metal Gear D and again Gray Fox was fine. This would scale the likes of Solid Snake and characters superior/equal to, or at least comparable to him up to Metal Gear D's durability.
An alternative would be the calculation which is only Building level: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Ednaxel2/Gray_Fox_tanks_the_destruction_of_Metal_Gear_D
Agree: Chariot190 (Calc) Eseseso, Minos_the_Judge (Vague)
Neutral:
Disagree: @Mr._Bambu

MGS2 Raiden's multiplier​

The exoskeletons are stated to multiply the user's strength by several times ("Several times" being accepted as 3x). Raiden before the events of MGS2 is comparable to MGS1 Snake as he was trained through simulations of the Shadow Moses incident which are one to one with the actual events, with the Patriots hoping for him to turn out as the ultimate soldier after the test. Then during the events of MGS2 when he joins Foxhound, he equips the skull suit which is outfitted with an exoskeleton, thus MGS2 Raiden is >3x MGS1 Snake. If this alone gets accepted the characters would be City Block level+, but if the last two potential changes also get accepted the characters will get to Multi-City Block level much early on.
Agree: Eseseso, Minos_the_Judge
Neutral:
Disagree: Chariot190 @Mr._Bambu

Jetstream Sam isn't "at most" City level​

Throughout the course of MGRR, the bosses gain information on the last one defeated yet will still be confident in fighting Raiden. Jetstream Sam worked alongside the winds of destruction for awhile during the events between the main story of MGRR and Sam's DLC so he should know how powerful each of them are, yet was still confident in fighting Ripper Mode Raiden knowing Monsoon and Sundonwer failed to do so. Raiden did state Sam put everything he had into the fight and wanted to kill him so badly, meaning he did take Raiden as a serious threat and didn't mess around (like in his fight against the World Marshall officers in his opening DLC) so him being confident in fighting Raiden is not him being over confident.

There are other points such as: Raiden wanting to kill Sam "Well, I'm ready for it. Monsoon interrupted us before... But this time, I'm ending it", he would of course use his Ripper Mode state if wanting to do so. Raiden being out of breath and getting up from the floor right after the fight. The official Metal Gear Versus Battle wiki stating that it is a fact that both Sam and Raiden are worthy opponents to each other (Sorry for the low quality of it, it's in Sam's featured fact). Sam being confused on Monsoon taking on Raiden, stating "huh, you're the boss" in a joking manner which could imply he wasn't confident in Monsoon winning.
Agree: Eseseso, Minos_the_Judge
Neutral: @Mr._Bambu
Disagree:

Ripper Mode​

When Raiden uses Ripper Mode he's able to defeat enemies in a single strike, with all enemies needing to be hit with 7 strikes. Excepts being the Hammerhead enemies needing 12 strikes in base and 2 in Ripper Mode, and the Gekko enemies needing 12 strikes in base and 2 in Ripper Mode. The guide for the game actually supports this stating it "enables him to inflict far greater damage, eliminating weaker opponents almost instantly". When downgrading Raiden's statistics by downgrading from his Ripper Mode state, his base should be at least 1/12th the power of his Ripper Mode state (it being within the 7 to 12 range) so his base should be (65.875 Megatons / 12 =) 5.4895833 Megatons (Small City level+) this would also downgrade the likes of Mistral and Khamsin.
Agree: Minos_the_Judge
Neutral: Eseseso
Disagree: Chariot190, SeijiSetto @Mr._Bambu

Base Raiden is not comparable to Full Power Armstrong​

This is something used to debunk Ripper Mode's multiplier, as the current chain scaling is: Base Raiden =< Armstrong = Ripper Mode Raiden.

The reasoning for why Raiden scales comparably to Armstrong is that he's able to inflict moderate damage to him and can tank attacks, however the scenes in which he demonstrates this is against a more casual/suppressed Armstrong, until the last half where he fight Senator at his strongest. We see this as Armstrong lets his guard down: he doesn't finish Raiden off when he has the chance, helps him up the second he thinks he convinced Raiden and even hugging him (very similar to his fight against Sam). He gets more enraged after Raiden tricks as his voice shifts to being more ticked off, casually tanking hundreds of strikes from Raiden, sending Raiden into the air with one punch, and beat him up so badly he was unable to get up for a bit. Even after all of that Armstrong could possibly still have been holding taking off his glasses which could symbolize that now he's going all out (in contrast to his casually fights where he always wear his glasses). While Armstrong does state he wants to kill Raiden a few times, he said the same thing to Sam throughout their fight which we know he was more casual and had no intent to kill Sam but to recruit him. So overall it's at least: Base Raiden =< Suppressed Amrstrong < Full Power Armstrong ~ Ripper Mode Raiden. And at worst it's Base Raiden =< Suppressed Armstrong < Less Suppressed Armstrong< Full Power Armstrong ~ Ripper Mode Raiden.
Agree: Eseseso, Minos_the_Judge, Chariot190
Neutral: @Mr._Bambu
Disagree:


Note: A few of these changes (if accepted) will require keys being made for some characters, which is already in the works from what I've hear.

I agree with everything, Armstrong outscales Raiden.
Yeah, I'd also see 8-B+ or 8-A for MGS chars reasonable, and Metal Gear D sounds reasonable if cited properly.
Only thing I don't agree with (for now) are Mistral and Khamsin getting downgraded.
You know what I think? That Armstrong should be x2 Raiden, as he has 200% HP to everyone's 100% HP
Wait for my upgrades though