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Possible Solaris and Illumina Downgrades and my Apology to Vs Battles.

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Adamjensen2030

Adamjensen2030

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After speaking with Paleo and Metal, I realised that they're telling the truth about Solaris (Game) and Illumina not being 2-B. Illumina should be Low 2-C with FTL speed and Solaris should be At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C with Infinite speed and here's why:


Illumina: Universe level+ (Dreamed Maginaryworld into existence, a dimension "co-existing" with reality and dreams, thus making it universe-sized. The Precioustone holds the world together and is made of the dreams of people across the multiverse, not Maginaryworld itself. This is why Illumina's feat of creating it is only Low 2-C).

Illumina should be FTL (It is implied Lumina is powerless to stop the destruction of Maginaryworld, and seems that she'd be destroyed along with it should it be destroyed, hence her urgency. With this said, Illumina should scale to the base Sonic characters)


Solaris: At least Universe level+, possibly Multi-Universe level (It was stated that Solaris would destroy all timelines and he was heavily implied to be higher-dimensional. While this sounds Multiverse level, it most certainly is not. Solaris threatened the universe, and that was it. With that in mind, he would destroy all timelines, but only one-by-one. Even so, he should be massively superior to Time Eater, since Super Sonic stomped it but couldn't harm Solaris under normal means)

Solaris should be Infinite (Stated that he fought the Super forms in a time-space rift. Thus, such a place would be his natural environment)


Also I wanted to apologize to a lot of admins especially Ryukama, Dino Ranger Black and The real cal howard and other regular users for downplaying Mario characters out of ignorance and making too many "irrelevant" Mario and Sonic threads. I have changed and I hope the admins will forgive me and give me a 2nd chance to show that I am not the same person I was when I first joined this wiki.

Thanks for reading.
 
Firstly, don't worry. You're a cool guy, and your apology is accepted.

Secondly, I'm not entirely sure. Though I'm fine with Solaris being infinite in speed, and I do believe he should be 2-C rather than Low 2-C.
 
I'm sorry but I haven't played this Sonic Shuffle game so I don't have anything to say about Illumina. You'd have to ask Matthew about her.

Solaris should just be 2-C since he can destroy all timelines, plural. No Low 2-C. None of those lines you highlighted suggest that he's only destroying one universe at a time in my opinion. It just says Sonic has to stop him from destroying the universe (which would still be the case even if he were Multiversal) and that the fate of "the world" (a super vague phrase that can refer to anything from a planet to the multiverse based on context) is at stake. Which again, the fate of the world would still be at stake if Solaris were multiversal.

Lastly but most importantly you don't have to apologize. Even though I've disagreed with you on many things, you have not been a rude or disrespectful user at all. People can have different opinions and still get along. Especially over unimportant topics like "Which video game character would beat the other in fight". And there's no need to be rough on yourself in the slightest. It's all good :)
 
Judging by the wording of your source, Maginaryworld is a world where "dreams co-exist with reality" . The world itself (Maginaryworld) is never stated to co-exist with reality.

Maginaryworld is made up of an ever expanding amount of Dreams which are all seperate realities .

Also, Lumina =/= Illumina
 
Okay I can see that most people are agreeing with Illumina being Low 2-C with FTL speed but if Solaris is 2-C what will that make his core then? Low end Low 2-C?
 
well see they mentioned timelines so its presumed he gulp down several at once so you can say that he will get downgraded to 2-C but no lower. Lumina not to sure on her but the scan about the urgency is well...that's for only Lumina because she is incomplete as void is her other self so she has half her powers as lumina
 
Illumina is 2-B. You literally see the party flying through a multiverse with each universe being a dream. So what if all dreams are connected and part of Maginaryworld? That's like saying that the multiverse is Low 2-C because all universes are part of the multiverse.
 
Also, Illumina had lost most of her power in the game as she was split into Lumina and Void, so her having urgency doesn't matter. I can show you 1-A characters who feel urgency and that doesn't mean they are slow.
 
If I recall correctly the Sonic cast flew past at least 100 to 150 universes before the cutscene ended. How is that 2-B?
 
Because that was obviously not the full extent of Maginaryworld. Literally every single dream is a universe in Maginaryworld, and that includes dreams from the inhabitants of multiple dimensions.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Because that was obviously not the full extent of Maginaryworld. Literally every single dream is a universe in Maginaryworld, and that includes dreams from the inhabitants of multiple dimensions.
Click to expand...
And you're assuming...dreams from at least 7.5 Billion people on earth?
 
well it's not like the developers can but that much but if its ALL the world's dreams then well...
 
why though? if there is something that shows solaris>>>Illumina then maybe but so far he only consumed an unknown timelines but multiple timelines were eaten all at once
 
... No? I mean that they are not part of the multiverse Solaris would destroy.

And again, you are using a arguably non-canon spin-off from 1998 to scale from the villain of a 2006 game made by completely different people when the connection between the two things you're scaling is tangencial at best.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Illumina is 2-B. You literally see the party flying through a multiverse with each universe being a dream. So what if all dreams are connected and part of Maginaryworld? That's like saying that the multiverse is Low 2-C because all universes are part of the multiverse.
Click to expand...
This is true, yet false. The game very explicitly states both in-game and in the manual that the Precioustone is what's made of dreams, and that Maginaryworld was created from the Precioustone. There was never once a direct statement that Maginaryworld was directly formed from the dreams, and even when there was one, it's immediately retconned moments later by Lumina saying the Precioustone is the very essence of Maginaryworld. In a way, Maginaryworld is made from the dreams--because the Precioustone is formed of the dreams, and it is what made Maginaryworld. With that, we can determine that Maginaryworld is not made directly from the dreams.

So then why were there dreams in it? Because the Precioustone was shattered. Broken into pieces by Void. This leaves us with the strong possibility that the dreams burst out of the Precioustone.

So... now that we've got that out of the way, how big is Maginaryworld? Well, because it co-exists with the real world and is described as a reality, it should at least be a universe.

As a side-note, how do we know that the dreams in Maginaryworld are even universes? As far as a I recall, there is nothing that describes them each as such, and being called "dimensions" doesn't count, since that's an indeterminate term that's loosely tossed around. With dreams co-existing with reality, it seems that the dreams are actually not universes, and that they're some obscure, obligatory size.

Ryukama said:
Solaris should just be 2-C since he can destroy all timelines, plural. No Low 2-C. None of those lines you highlighted suggest that he's only destroying one universe at a time in my opinion. It just says Sonic has to stop him from destroying the universe (which would still be the case even if he were Multiversal) and that the fate of "the world" (a super vague phrase that can refer to anything from a planet to the multiverse based on context) is at stake. Which again, the fate of the world would still be at stake if Solaris were multiversal.
Click to expand...
It's literally stated he's rending the fabric of the universe, rather than "universes." I don't see how this is inconsistent, as his Eyes of Solaris seem to take a while to destroy the world. Simple time rewinding can stall it, too. Eggman states he'll destroy every timeline, but why would we assume he destroys them all at once when there's:

  1. Never a given timeframe.
  2. The only timeframes we are given imply one-by-one.
Also, within the very same text that it says "world" it mentions Solaris only destroying one universe, so that seems to imply one world as well.

Yeah, he'd destroy all timelines, but I don't see why "one-by-one" is even a little far-fetched with the only implied timeframe being sequential.

I also don't see why we don't take Aaron's clear statement that everything is canon to heart. He even made a follow-up Twitter statement saying the same thing.
 
If we're going to get so picky with semantics, it says that that Sonic has to "stop Solaris before it permanantly rends the fabric of the universe". Not that he's literally doing it. All the statement means is that Sonic has to stop Solaris before he destroys the universe, which is still the case even if he were Multiversal.

Even if they're using "world" to refer to one universe, again of course the fate of the world is going to be at stake from a Multiversal being.

Again, these are just vague statements with presumptuous meanings extrapolated out of them. They do not immediately indicate that he can only destroy one universe at a time. The only argument is just the fact that there's an unknown timeframe. Those statements prove nothing.

And what do these obstacles within the game taking a while to destroy the environment have to do with Solaris himself's power?
 
@Ryu: If you're using the argument that he's Multiversal and that these statements only support that... well, where's your proof he can destroy them all at once? You keep saying he's multiversal and because of that, these statements that are clearly saying he only threatens the universe and world, finally giving us a timeframe, are irrelevant.

Hate to say it, but you're doing the same thing--assuming that Eggman's one statement means he destroys them all at once, without any added evidence. I'm acknowledging Eggman's statement, but it doesn't contradict the presented timeframe from the prima. Eggman's one statement proves nothing besides the fact that he'd destroy all timelines, but how long it would take and how he would do it are completely unknown. The prima gives us more incite. Regardless, we assume the low-end timeframe if it's unknown, don't we?

These "obstacles" are direct representations of Solaris' power. Solaris literally summons them in the fight to block the Arrow of Light, and shoot projectiles at Super Sonic. And in the prima, they're described as "rips in the space-time continuum." The game itself calls them rifts. They take their sweet time in destroying everything, and are directly summoned from Solaris.
 
I already said "The only argument is just the fact that there's an unknown timeframe. Those statements prove nothing." My point was that these vague statements prove nothing. How does "Sonic has to stop Solaris from destroying the universe" and "the fate of the world" indicate that he can only destroy one universe at a time? These statements are all still true even if he were Multiversal.

They are just rips and attacks he makes. How is the fact that they don't destroy too much change what Solaris himself can do? Especially when these rips aren't what Solaris is going to use to destroy the timelines.

I'm fine with "At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C" for unknown timeframe. However wasn't there some other statement that Solaris eats timelines for lunch? Though I guess there can some interpretation that he doesn't eat multiple ones at once or something.
 
@Ever Alright. What are your thoughts on the revisions here overall though? I'd really appreciate your input.
 
While I don't know enough about Sonic Shuffle to talk about that, I really don't see anything that says Solaris is just Low 2-C. 2-C seems a lot more appropriate.
 
I believe the point they're trying to make is this Illumina doesn't have control over them, due to them being products of the Precioustone.

Now, I could not only be wrong what they mean, but that could just be a false statement altogether, so take that with a grain of salt.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
There are statements that every dream is a world in Maginaryworld.
Click to expand...
Do you have them on hand? Context behind them would be helpful. If not, that's okay as well. Though, I just wanna say, worlds could still mean anything.

@Cal: Pretty much. Except, I noticed two inconsistencies:

  1. Illumina's profile states that she dreamt Maginaryworld into existence.
  2. Yet, the game and manual, from what I had seen, says the Precioustone created Maginaryworld.
Now, I don't doubt such a statement exists, but we should link things from now on, because... well, we need that statement. Cause with the statements with the Precioustone, even if Illumina made Maginaryworld, it's only the size of a universe unless statements about the dream sizes exist.
 
No, the game states that Illumina both created the Precioustone and dreamed the 4th Dimension which contains all the dream universes.
 
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