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Devil May Cry 3 Speed Adjustment Part 2

Lina_Shields

3,260
293
So we will be discussing this scene here, where Dante and Vergil were stated to obliterate each and every raindrop within a 12-foot radius, although I need to ask this.

  • Did the game (or novel from the game, if it exists) actually imply this?
  • How do we know that all the raindrops in that scene were obliterated?
Unless the game actually tells us that all the raindrops were obliterated in that scene, we don't know here (Death Battle wouldn't be sufficient proof in this case).

As for the Nevan example, remember that we have a calculated lightning feat, where said lightning bolt's speed was faster than the speed of actual lightning, so Nevan's lightning may be faster or slower here.

Now for Dante's overall speed in general, we have this scene where said sword catches on fire via going down from the sky, but we have no idea how fast this sword is going down, although an object coming down from the sky and catching fire may/may not always be Hypersonic+ in terms of speed.

  • There is less air resistance acting against the face of the object (a sharp point vs a dull round object), thus said object would need to move at a higher speed in order for it to reach a sufficient temperature to catch fire.
 
1. Heavily implied considering that once Dante and Vergil clash, there's a big cone around them where there's no rain and then you hear the splash, signifying all the rain built up hitting the ground at once.

2. The fact that none were there....
 
1. That is because the area where Dante and Vergil were directly fighting in was affected by Quicksilver, hence the circular area effect. How do I know this?

Circle1
Because the Quicksilver always shows up as a circle once it is activated.

2. I don't see anything signifying this scene (and the aftermath of it) that all the raindrops that were contained in the area affected by Quicksilver were completely destroyed.

Clash1
Those raindrops that made the splash (when Dante/Vergil clashed)? Dante/Vergil's clash did that.

Now then, wait for this feat to be calculated. It's probably WAY higher than Hypersonic+ at least, so we can get some upgrades here.

  • Can someone find out how much Quicksilver slows down time or something?
 
If he didn't have Quicksilver at that point in the game, then he didn't. The raindrops not being completely destroyed still stands though, as we just see a splash of water at the end of Dante/Vergil's clash (and not all the raindrops being obliterated one by one).
 
I hate to bring this up, but I have a question regarding Quicksilver in the first part of the thread. I'm new and I don't know how time manipulation is treated here but shouldn't Quicksilver be treated as a multiplier? The Quicksilver (falling rocks) calc doesn't make sense if BASE Dante already has Massively Hypersonic combat speed and Hypersonic+ travel speeds because it only makes him slower. So we should treat that cut scene as Dante having average human reactions, in other words, in our perspective. The calc also didn't take into consideration the duration of roughly 10 seconds. It is clear that the rocks didn't move at all for the first few seconds which is consistent with the ingame mechanics where enemies start from a complete freeze and only then begin to move after a short while and faster as time progresses. The rocks only begin to fall after Dante poked it which is about 5 or more seconds of being completely stale and then considerably falls faster then.

So, changing it to a multiplier will give us 10 sec / (0.01 / 16.21) = 16,210x multiplier to BASE Dante. This is still conservative because the first few seconds is a complete time stop. I can't remember the exact mechanics ingame, if there is indeed a complete freeze and for how long, but I'm sure that activation of Quicksilver gives you invulnerability frames which I think is a reasonable compromise.
 
A re-calc of Dante's sword feat has been done here.

Also, to figure out how much time slows down for Dante (from this calculatio), I would have just done

  • (Distance = 0.01m)/(Velocity = 16.21m/s), where Time = Distance/Velocity
  • Flow of time = 6.169e-4 seconds
    • This would have been the time it would have taken for the rock to fall 0.01m at the current falling speed of 16.21m/s.
To figure out how much time moves slower in that scene, just divide the flow of time in real life (1 second) by the flow of time in that specific scene (6.169e-4 seconds). We get a value of...

  • (1 second)/(6.169e-4 second) = 1621 times.
So when Dante uses Quicksilver, time would have slowed down for him by 1621 times. This would also be considered a multiplier.

The calc also didn't take into consideration the duration of roughly 10 seconds. It is clear that the rocks didn't move at all for the first few seconds which is consistent with the ingame mechanics where enemies start from a complete freeze

  • To address this argument, saying that the rocks did not move at all for the first few seconds would mean that a complete time stop has occurred, where it does not actually say that Quicksilver stops time, at all.
  • Also, keep in mind that this calculation was based on a cutscene, thus in-game mechanics would not apply to the calculation in this case (game mechanics would only apply for actual gameplay).
 
However, if Dante did not have the Quicksilver ability in Devil May Cry 3, the speed multiplier for Quicksilver cannot apply to DMC3 Dante in this case.
 
The speed multiplication would be calc stacking. Applying the result of one calc and adding it onto the result of another.
 
No need to do a separate calc with the Quicksilver multiplier. I'm just saying that Dante's perception slows down about a certain number of times the first time Quicksilver is used. That's all.
 
Multiplying a Mach 30 something Dante by over 1000 times would wield feats inconsistent with those performed by Dante with over 10 years to improve his speed, and God-Tiers such as Abigail.
 
The Mach 30 something calc was done only in DMC3. I don't think Dante had Quicksilver at that point, so the multiplier would not apply (according to Jesterofgames).

Now going to the point of Abigail, I don't think that Dante used Quicksilver when he fought against Abigail here.
 
Dante got the Quicksilver way earlier in the game.

@Lina

That's not my point. Even DMC3 Vergil when he's with Devil Trigger activated can react to Quicksilver Dante.

Abigail >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> DMC3 DT Vergil, and his feat of speed would be slower than DMC3 Quicksilver Dante if we applied the multiplier.

So it's a high-end outlier.
 
Even DMC3 Vergil when he's with Devil Trigger activated can react to Quicksilver Dante.

  • Was this shown in video anywhere? If you are not certain on what the actual multiplier for Quicksilver is, why have you set Dante and Vergil's speed with the Quicksilver as Massively Hypersonic+?
    • I still have yet to see any sources where Dante with Quicksilver moves faster than the speed of Nevan's lightning (a video is needed), or where Dante reacts to Nevan's lightning while using it.
Anyways, if the Quicksilver multiplier of 1620x is a high-end outlier, another calculation for the Quicksilver's multiplier can be done using a feat straight from gameplay then, as the multiplier from actual gameplay should be consistent throughout the game.
 
You can only take multipliers as legit if they're consistent. Which is why Kaio Ken and Ripper Mode are used but not Super Saiyan and I still have to make a thread for GoH characters.
 
"Was this shown in video anywhere?"

It happens in his boss fights. If you try to use Quicksilver to slow down Vergil, it barely works if he's in his normal state, and if he's in Devil Trigger it doesn't work at all.

"If you are not certain on what the actual multiplier for Quicksilver is, why have you set Dante and Vergil's speed with the Quicksilver as Massively Hypersonic+?"

Because of Nevan.
 
I don't think dante have Quicksilver as this point.

HACK!

I mean this is even before Dante awake his Devil trigger!
 
You get quicksilver before you fight Vergil for the second time. M12 is when you fight Geryon the Time Steed, and M13 is when you fight Vergil, who can react to Dante using quicksilver.

Also from a game point of view, DMC3 was released after 2 and 1, so Dante possessing quicksilver doesn't exist in those games, though it's been retconned into his timeline. It's not even in DMC4.

If he did have QS in those games, then it would be a different story.

Even DontTalk's calcs of the Abigail episode put him close to Dante's speed going down Temen-Ni-Gru.
 
Also, here's the video of Dante fighting Vergil in their next to last encounter. Vergil is capable of doing pretty much everything he normally can, while Dante uses QS. And correct me if I'm wrong, but he gets even stronger when he has force edge in the final fight.
 
You can only take multipliers as legit if they're consistent. Which is why Kaio Ken and Ripper Mode are used but not Super Saiyan and I still have to make a thread for GoH characters.

  • If a multiplier for Quicksilver from the actual game can be calculated, that multiplier should be consistent for that game, thus it can be used. The value of the multiplier still needs to be calculated, however.
There is a video of Dante's Quicksilver being used against Vergil. You can see that it actually slows down Vergil's speed down a lot, although we are not sure how much Vergil's speed has slowed down.

Because of Nevan.

Unless we see Dante reacting to Nevan's lightning with Quicksilver being active, we still cannot assume that Dante is faster than it, even with Quicksilver. Scans of the feat are necessary here.
 
@Lina

That's only if you use Quicksilver devoid of time limit, which is game mechanics and non-canon.

Look at the video Unite Rice posted. You can see that Vergil is perfectly capable of parrying and reacting in Dante's Quicksilver.
 
I do like Lina's video better though. In the instances Vergil reacted in the video I posted, he was already doing so before the QS start-up animation finished. And yeah he is still super fast during QS, but he is noticeably much slower, especially in their final fight where Vergil is at his strongest.

Super Devil Trigger just gives you infinite DT gauges (unless you use it for certain moves), but it doesn't affect the abilities themselves.

In the video I posted earlier, compare Vergil's teleportation in QS vs outside of it, the difference is very noticeable.
 
It doesn't affect the ability, but it bugs Vergil's AI and animation. He would be incapable of doing the reactions you can clearly see him doing in your video if the Quicksilver was infinite.
 
That's only if you use Quicksilver devoid of time limit, which is game mechanics and non-canon.

  • You can still figure out how much the time has slowed down while using it, which is what needs to be figured out here.
Look at the video Unite Rice posted. You can see that Vergil is perfectly capable of parrying and reacting in Dante's Quicksilver.

  • And Dante in that video was still able to keep up with Vergil even without Quicksilver. Dante was also able to keep up with Vergil even when Vergil is using his Devil Trigger, as Devil Trigger didn't seem to make Vergil that much faster than normal (Looking at the video Unite My Rice posted).
    • Again, the feat/scene where Dante is actually moving faster than Nevan's lightning bolts are needed, although considering that the Quicksilver style does not boost Dante's speed as high as expected, Dante probably does not move faster than Nevan's lightning.
@Matt: Going from Mach 39 to over Mach 1000 is still a massive jump, no? What is the justification for this massive speed jump, especially if you are implying that the speed boost gained by Quicksilver is not that great. Depending on Dante's speed in his normal form, his speed isn't going to increase that much here (and certainly not enough to jump 2 speed tiers at least).


I will refrain from bringing Dante's match with Abigail in this case as Dante doesn't seem to have access to the Quicksilver style in DMC 1 and 4's time period.
 
I'm not sure about that, but yeah, the instances we see him teleport are still extremely fast. If we take out the game mechanic ability where the camera follows your opponent everywhere they go, and thus you always know where they are even if they teleport, Vergil is still capable of teleporting behind Dante , just at a much slower rate.

It doesn't mean QS is overrated, it just means Vergil is dangerously fast.
 
"@Matt: Going from Mach 39 to over Mach 1000 is still a massive jump, no?"

I'm indifferent with the end result. If DMC 3 Dante gets downgraded to Mach 39, and unquantifiably higher with Quicksilver, that's okay.
 
Dante is also capable of reacting to Nevan's lightning without QS, as shown here, where it gets Royal Guarded twice in successio . She also sends those waves of lighting out that are easily dodgeable.

Also even if we did use Mach 39, that gets multiplied by an unknown number from Devil Trigger, and in general getting stronger throughout the game progression. Dante was able to beat the guy who literally was Quicksilver after all.
 
I'm not sure about that, but yeah, the instances we see him teleport are still extremely fast.

  • Considering that we do not count teleportation as actual speed feats, this would be counted as one of Vergil's abilities, and not counted towards his actual speed.
I'm indifferent with the end result. If DMC 3 Dante gets downgraded to Mach 39, and unquantifiably higher with Quicksilver, that's okay.

  • Dante's profile section for DMC reads that his normal speed is just Hypersonic+. The calculation that I did brings his speed up to Mach 39, or High Hypersonic.
  • Since we are not sure about how much the Quicksilver ability slows down the opponent's speed, it would be better to set Dante's speed as "At least High Hypersonic (Managed to catch the sword he threw downwards by running faster than it), higher with Quicksilver (Slows down the opponent's movement speed, and making Dante's movement faster as an extension)
 
"Since we are not sure about how much the Quicksilver ability slows down the opponent's speed, it would be better to set Dante's speed as "At least High Hypersonic (Managed to catch the sword he threw downwards by running faster than it), higher with Quicksilver (Slows down the opponent's movement speed, and making Dante's movement faster as an extension)"

Fine.
 
I think QS should be quantified though. As stated above in my edit, that gets multiplied by an unknown amount with Devil Trigger, plus he was able to beat Geryon, who is Quicksilver itself, and reacting to Nevan as shown earlier.

And although how he kills the boss is the player's choice, Dante is usually depicted as beating all of these bosses in base form in the victory cutscenes, unless shown otherwise.
 
The issues with the Devil Trigger and Quicksilver are that

  • We are not sure how much Devil Trigger increases his power compared to his regular form. It could not even be that much of a boost.
  • Even if the Quicksilver's multiplier has been calculated and accepted, is it still usable (if it is, I'll just do a calculation on it and see what comes out of it.)?
 
1. True, it would be nice to find a quantifiable increase in power, considering everything including his regen gets a giant boost.

2. The way DMC works, even though they're all one canon timeline, a lot details in one story might not exist in the next. DMC3 has QS and doppleganger, and neither of those ended up in DMC 4, which is chronologically next, but since DMC3 is the first DMC game in chronological order, every DMC game should possess that ability.

But with DMC3, I feel Dante should be at least MHS, given that you can easily fight Nevan and dodge her lightning without using QS, who appears in M9, then you fight Geryon who uses Quicksilver in M12, then you beat an improved Vergil in M13, fight Doppleganger, who is a shadow version of Dante's Devil Trigger in M17, and fight an even stronger Vergil in M20.

Quicksilver would only compliment the feats he can accomplish without it.
 
Lina Shields said:
To figure out how much time moves slower in that scene, just divide the flow of time in real life (1 second) by the flow of time in that specific scene (6.169e-4 seconds). We get a value of...

(1 second)/(6.169e-4 second) = 1621 times.

So when Dante uses Quicksilver, time would have slowed down for him by 1621 times. This would also be considered a multiplier.
Click to expand...
Yeah but the duration is not just 1 second. The rocks didn't move for roughly 10 seconds (only started to move after Dante poked the rock which is about 9+ second of it being completely stale) so 1 second would understate the multiplier. In other words, it only moved by 0.01m in a period of 10 seconds. Thus: (10sec)/(6.169e-4sec) = 16,210x.

Unfortunately this is the only cutscene where Dante used QS in DMC3 so if we are going to calc QS based on cutscenes, then we're out of options.

Lina Shields said:
where it does not actually say that Quicksilver stops time, at all.
Click to expand...
As for how QS works, if we take the cutscene as is, we can see that the activation of QS completely froze enemies - and then only move faster as time progresses (the rocks begin to fall faster after Dante walks away). So QS = from 100% stop and then continuously decrease effectiveness as time progresses. So we treat it like deceleration from 100% effectiveness to 0?
 
Thing is, even with DT active for Bergil, or DT active for Dante, we're still able to see Vergil react to QS and DT Dante and we're able to react to DT Vergil, the speed should be nearly identical.
 
Well he's not even reacting to QS itself, because it's not something you can react to. He basically slows down time, and Vergil is still able to move pretty fast inside of it (though now you can basically walk and avoid all his attacks).
 
That's probably game mechanics. There are certain instances when he does parry, and as example, he would teleport to the other end of the stage and start spamming judgement cut. He's designed to do things like that as he hits a certain level of health.
 
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