Possible weakness for Yhwach's Almighty

ProfessorKukui4Life · Jan 7, 2017

After looking into some Yhwach related topics, concerning his Almighty more importantly, I've come to realizing a theoretical question concerning said Almighty. A question that might make this Definition of NLF power.....no longer an NLF.

Now, as we know, the Almighty is a power Yhwach has that allows him to see all possible futures and shape them to become real. Again, ALL POSSIBLE. And as such, there has been a great deal of difficulty coming to terms and an understanding about just how strong the Almighty is and what limits it has, as it certanly sounds like the defintion of a No Limits Fallacy. So really we decided in the end that anyone who has a cosmic like hax, such as Time Manipulation, would be able to counter the Almighty. Otherwise its impossible to. That.......may not be true anymore.

After careful thinking and consideration towards his power, I have to ask: If Ywhach is ever put into a scenerio where he is fighting someone who is superior to him in A stat, some stats, and/or all stats, thus making it impossible for him to ever win or even gain an advantage, wouldnt his Almighty be rendered worthless? And what I mean by worthless is if Ywhach is being matched, slightly overwhelemed, or is just out-right outclassed by an opponent, thus taking away ALL POSSIBLILITY of turning things in his favor, then there wouldnt be any EXISTING possible futures where he can gain the upper hand or even beat his opponent. And, as a result, he wouldnt be able to use the Almighty to his advantage and have it work on his opponent. In other words, here are some examples:

If Ywhach has lower AP by a little or a by lot than his opponent, then there is no possible future where he can become stronger than them. As such, switching to or shaping any future cannot save him from getting one shotted.

If Ywhach has lower speed by a little or a lot than his opponent, then there is no possible future where he can become faster than them. As such, switching to or shaping any future cannot save him from any speed blitz on any level.

And so on for every other/all stats.

Wouldnt that be an actual flaw in the Almighty's power? That if Ywhach is lower in stats, or if the stat difference is too much, then there is no such possible future in which Ywhach can win or gain an advantage over the superior opponent, thus making the Almighty useless?

And if so, would this be notable enough to list on his profile? Please tell me what you think about this development as this might be an important topic regarding his Almighty.

Ciruno_Fortes_(COB) · Jan 7, 2017

It's basically technically like Sans in Undertale. Or basically comparing it to a save file in a game. Or at least it's like him resetting the game again and again but he could only gain the save file that fits the scenario.

After all he might as well be Doctor Strange bargaining in this case except he gets the bonus of seeing everything. It doesn't mean that Yhwach hasn't faced anyone stronger than him that he can't affect with Almighty doesn't mean it's not possible after all since he's effectively the strongest guy in Bleach.

But yeah supporting this.

Saikou_The_Lewd_King · Jan 7, 2017

Isn't Almighty basically reality warping though? I always assumed it was.

Amelia_Lonelyheart · Jan 7, 2017

I haven't seen anything Bleach related since I watched the anime...when I was 11 (I totally didn't even know it was still going until I visited this wiki...), but this seems like a good analyse of his power. I support this.

AppleLord · Jan 7, 2017

I'll leave my comment from the other thread.

"So Ichigo's bankai wasn't a threat like Yhwach said? Despise the bankai been "stronger" than him, there was a future were he broke it, and even when Ichigo was faster than him. He open the Almighty eyes after getting own by merged hollow Ichigo new speed."

"The future manipulation should only apply to what he can do. Let's say, in front of him lays a impenetrable wall, he then chooses a future where he used the X-Axis on it. The X-Axis is an unblockable attack, now what happens? There is not gonna be a hole in the wall, unless Yhwach is stronger than the wall."

If Time Manipulation worked on Yhwach, Tessai could have kill Yhwach. I'm not saying it doesn't work on him, I'm saying that it should 'if' someone stronger does it, however, i'm leaning towards durability negation base on Yhwach's 'fear' over Ichigo's Bankai and Yhwach keeping up with merged hollow Ichigo's new speed after activating the Almighty.

EnderShadowr215 · Jan 7, 2017

@Saikou No as it isn't reality wrap. Like not at all and you are wrong on assuming it was.

Primaris_Brian · Jan 7, 2017

Well ichibei reduce his speed and power to ant and he still out hax him.

AppleLord · Jan 7, 2017

Ichigo's Bankai and Hollow form debunk this hypothesis. Sorry.

Amlad22 · Jan 7, 2017

He was turned into an ant and still created a future that he won in. If he truly on looked at possible futures and couldn't create new ones there wouldn't have been a future for him to beat Ichibei

AppleLord · Jan 7, 2017

Another fact that debunks this hypothesis:

Explain how he negated ichimonji, he had literally the powers of an ant. There should be no way an ant could remove the powers of ichimonji (which removes all of your powers) or even damage a country buster, in that instant he created a new future where he damaged Ichibei and then created a new future where he wasn't an ant (with 0 powers & abilities) any longer and finish it by creating a new future where Ichibei exploted in front of his eyes killing him.

Primaris_Brian · Jan 7, 2017

Btw ichibei change his name to ant king and thus reduce him to ant and that was before he even has the change to using his almighty. he use his power after he became ant.

Ciruno_Fortes_(COB) · Jan 7, 2017

He didn't reduce him to an ant. He reduced him to have the power of an ant.

And again once more I repeat, Ichibei's ability isn't perfect and could be overwhelmed or negated. And in this case Ichibei pretty much explained his entire ability to Yhwach who literally said if he understands his power he would be able to negate it.

Stop claiming he turns Yhwach into an ant because only his power level is lowered and ability restricted.

Primaris_Brian · Jan 7, 2017

His body appearance is doesn't matter since he change his name to ant and thus reduce him to supposed to be only has ant power and I don't think ichibei is weaker than he is when they was fighting as he literally just rip Yhwach blut vane with pure muscles from only half of his body.

Ciruno_Fortes_(COB) · Jan 7, 2017

It's just something that irks me whenever someone claims Yhwach can do that.

It's rather simple. Yhwach overwhelms Ichibei or at least bits him in physical raw power. But Ichibei beats him his actual power. Almighty shuts down that power.

Primaris_Brian · Jan 7, 2017

No ichibei overwhelms yhwach blut vene by muscles from only half of his body he not use any other tricks and blut vene is designed to counter bankai destruction power or at least that was the jail quincy(I forget his name) say.

ProfessorKukui4Life · Jan 7, 2017

Also just for reference sake, my examples doesnt just work if Ywhach is beaten by someone else in a little stat difference. It can also be a vastly large one.

For example, speed wise, if he (who is Sub Rel+) is facing someone who is MFTL+, then my explanation about no possible futures for him to turn things around existing works as there is no way Yhwach could ever try and either become faster or avoid a speed blitz.

So as long as its at least a large/vast difference, Yhwach's Almighty, by what im trying to convey, should become totally useless and ineffective against his opponent.

Does anyone see what im trying to say?

ProfessorKukui4Life · Jan 7, 2017

Btw Dark should this be highlighted? I know it may not look it, but due to the past issues regarding Yhwach and his power (to the point where he was even banned and it took a lot of work to get him unbanned and used in vsbattles again), I feel that this may be something those, especially bleach experts, should look at and take into consideration.

Ciruno_Fortes_(COB) · Jan 7, 2017

Yup. Honestly one primary weakness is that his power negation only works on actual powers and well it can't dodge the undodgeable.

Primaris_Brian · Jan 7, 2017

I can agree with overwhelming different but saying with little different and then suddenly his power become useless is ridiculous as he just need to make the future where he hit his little bit stronger opponent become real and sudenly there are hole in their body or just make the future where his opponent make mistake become real.

AppleLord · Jan 7, 2017

No one is saying that Yhwach was turned into a literal ant. Only his stats were reduce to that of an Ant. Ichibei gave name to everything in Soul Society and possibly the powers to go along with it, after the Soul King gave him the tittle. No power is perfect, but Ichibei is close as it gets in his verse. Even if Ichibei didn't explain it, the Almighty gives him the ability to understand everything he sees in all possible futures.

Almighty can't shut down raw power. Ichibei overpower Yhwach in everything aspect, strength, durability, speed, and the Almighty doesn't increase his stats.

ProfessorKukui4Life · Jan 7, 2017

Not Jim Sterling said:
I can agree with overwhelming different but saying with little different and then suddenly his power become useless is ridiculous as he just need to make the future where he hit his little bit stronger opponent become real and sudenly there are hole in their body or just make the future where his opponent make mistake become real.

But thats the problem here. How can Yhwach do that if every single future has a result of him being too weak to do that?

For example, pit Ywhach, whos at least Planet Level to someone who is Large Planet Level. Yhwach is at a disadvantage in AP and thus has no plasible way of having superior AP. Thus with that possiblity gone, that also makes any future where he can become stronger than said Large Planet Level opponent non-existent. Therefore, no matter what future he switches to or shapes, Yhwach will stll be weaker and overpowered.

FateAlbane · Jan 7, 2017

Actual weakness: Acausality.

FateAlbane · Jan 7, 2017

Also, there have been a good number of discussions regarding the Almighty. It's an interesting point, considering near the end of Bleach there was a certain extensive discussion about whether Yhwach matches should even be allowed or not, IIRC.

This is somewhat of a controversial topic, to an extent.

AppleLord · Jan 7, 2017

A future were his opponent was distracted or let his guard down. Maybe his opponent was sleeping?

ProfessorKukui4Life · Jan 7, 2017

Yeah Yhwach was banned for a while and it took a lot of work to get him unbanned for vsmatches. At least this way, my suggestion can have his power finally not hit with the NLF stick and he can still use his power like always.

FateAlbane · Jan 7, 2017

One thing is for certain: Ichigo's bankai could beat Yhwach, but he still "lolfuturehaxbrokeit" the sword before the guy could even bring it to the match.

However, going: "He changes the future so his stats become better than his opponent" is silly. Yhwach can very much be oneshotted by a more powerful opponent or blitzed by a faster one. This much is a given. The usual problem his opponents experience is making him stay dead.

FateAlbane · Jan 7, 2017

Also he can change the future to what suits his tastes, but we've never seen him changing peoples stats like Ichibe reducing people to ants so I don't think Yhwach using his power in a similar manner is actually a thing.

One way or another, when we have broad abilities such as "Future Manipulation", it's all but impossible to prevent some kind of NLF happening, no matter how much we try to describe it. To make it worse, Yhwach's limits were made very vague, what with the problems Bleach experienced near the end of the series, which usually makes it all the more likely for some to exaggerate stuff.

ProfessorKukui4Life · Jan 7, 2017

AppleLord said:
A future were his opponent was distracted or let his guard down. Maybe his opponent was sleeping?

That has a lot of depending factors in it.

First, any battle with characters bloodlusted wouldnt be effected by this since they would go for the kill and immiediately attempt to kill Yhwach throughout the whole fight.

Secondly, Yhwach wouldnt even have a way of doing either and this is assuming he can before he gets one shotted, blitzed, etc.

Third, getting caught off guard or distracted wouldnt change anything as things like Durability and AP are not effected by this. This isnt the case like the PIS Goku hit by a laser scene. Yhwach can distract them all he likes, it doesnt mean he can put a dent in beings far superior to him in stats.

AppleLord · Jan 7, 2017

There's still a problem with your hypothesis.

"I can agree with overwhelming different but saying with little different and then suddenly his power become useless is ridiculous"

Manga contradicts this part and you have been proven wrong. This will also make the Almighty unusable in battles. Try to come up with some ideas between Yhwach and a character with a little power above him, and you will see what I mean.

FateAlbane · Jan 7, 2017

To put it simply?

Like any sort of Time Travel or Offensive Causality related ability, Almighty is indeed pretty broken assuming the opponent doesn't have Acausality on their pockets.

...Sadly, there will always be those who are not satisfied with how broken a power already is and will overpower it to oblivion. Almighty is one such case.

AppleLord · Jan 7, 2017

I agree with @Fate

ProfessorKukui4Life · Jan 7, 2017

It wouldnt mean its unusable it just becomes less effective or not effective at all depending on the gap between Yhwach and his opponent.

If its an opponent Yhwach matches in stats and hax, then there should be futures where he can win.

If its an opponent who, lets say, has better stats but lesser and less quality hax then its still possible for Yhwach to win.

Same if its an opponent who has better hax but worser stats.

If the opponent cannot be harmed by Yhwach in any regard, the by these standards the Almighty would be useless and unusable.

Primaris_Brian · Jan 7, 2017

AppleLord said:
There's still a problem with your hypothesis.
Manga contradicts this part and you have been proven wrong. This will also make the Almighty unusable in battles. Try to come up with some ideas between Yhwach and a character with a little power above him, and you will see what I mean.

hmm? so you agree with almighty become useless if his opponent was stronger than him or what? Since I say i don't agree with that idea.

Primaris_Brian · Jan 7, 2017

ProfessorKukui4Life said:
But thats the problem here. How can Yhwach do that if every single future has a result of him being too weak to do that?

The problem is I say I agree with overwhelming so thats is not a problem.

FateAlbane · Jan 7, 2017

If Yhwach gets put against a much stronger or faster opponent, chances are they will be either oneshotting or speedblitizing. This much is a given. Rather than a weakness of the Almighty, it's more like the opponent just being way stronger anyways.

Then usually, the only thing left to argue in such a match is whether they can make Yhwach stay dead or not. The best he can hope for in such a match is Inconclusive because neither will be able to finish off the other (well, assuming the other character is not a glass cannon or something).

...However, saying the hax gets nullified by virtue of power levels is not quite valid as I see it. Otherwise, say, Goku would nullify hax by virtue of DB logic of power >> hax.

Ciruno_Fortes_(COB) · Jan 7, 2017

@Apple gotcha on the Ichibei thing but the wording always irks me

Though I think Ichibei is more even with Yhwach than anything

And I think honestly, if the strength difference is only slight, then the situation becomes more arguable on who can win. If it's overwhelming there's no chance, but if it's bigger stats and better haxx, it becomes impossible to win.

However.... if the opponent is only slightly better like above but either has the same haxx or not as much haxx, I think it's more fairer and that Almighty can give Yhwach the win.

AppleLord · Jan 7, 2017

@Life

First factor would be a stomp. There's no way a battle like that is possible.

Second, he can by using the same method he use against Aizen, taking them off-guard after making them think he is dead. Among other ways, depending on the opponents personality.

Third, you're wrong on that. Is valid in all series even dragon ball. Vegeta tells Krillin that he can harm him if he lowest his ki, Whis explain something similar to Goku. This is a current factor through the whole series.

BarryAllen2.0 · Jan 7, 2017

1.)Ichibei was never vastly superior to Yhwach in the sense that Yhwach didn't have the stats to compete or even injure him. He did so yes, the Almighty was applicable.

2.)Ichigo didn't do shit to Yhwach, even in his hollow form, Ichigo couldn't land a blow nor scratch Yhwach and in the end was stomped. Ichigo was still shown and stated to be vastly inferior to Yhwach so, I.E., Almighty was more than applicable.

3.)Almighty gives Yhwach the power to understand and negate Abilities, thus Ichimonji becoming useless on him. When Yhwach activated it, it basically reset everything Ichibei did to him and for this case, goes back to my first point.

If Yhwach was fighting someone with Galaxy Level AP/Durability than there would be no future in which he could injure or tank an attack. Unless he uses X-Axis. If Yhwach is fighting someone with MFTL+ reactions than there is no future in which he tags them. He can still use the almighty to his advantage but the things he can do become limited.

Primaris_Brian · Jan 7, 2017

You can't speedblitz him with pure strength as he can rewrite his death only with hax(assume the hax in question is work on him)

AppleLord · Jan 7, 2017

FateAlbane said:
...Sadly, there will always be those who are not satisfied with how broken a power already is and will overpower it to oblivion. Almighty is one such case.

Like Dragon Ball?

Possible weakness for Yhwach's Almighty

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