Possible weakness for Yhwach's Almighty

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Being an eternal punching bag is no fun either.

But if he can outlast being a punching bag without being mentally broken then it could be a stalemate or a win

 

[FateAlbane]

But guys, putting Yhwach against someone much stronger and/or faster isn't a weakness of Almighty, it's just his opponent being OP compared to him in raw power.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Actually it wouldnt even be the opponent resisting the hax, its just a limit of the hax itself.

For your Goku example, him being stronger wouldnt make him resistant to Almighty, its just that the Almighty itself wouldnt be able to effect Goku as there are no futures or scenerios where he can ever lose to Yhwach, thus its useless and pointless to use. In other words, the hax wouldnt stop working it would just stop being effective. Meaning, Goku can still be switched to any future Yhwach wants to transform via Almighty, its just that any future Yhwach chooses wont make him better, stronger or superior to Goku due to Goku not possibly losing to him. So like I said, its not about the ability being resisted or broken, its just the ability itself losing its effectiveness.

 

[AppleLord]

If the opponent cannot be harmed by Yhwach in any regard, the by these standards the Almighty would be useless and unusable.

Instant BFR with Almighty. Can it work?

The only thing I disagree is the little difference in power comment.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Being an eternal punching bag is no fun either.
But if he can outlast being a punching bag without being mentally broken then it could be a stalemate or a win

he rewrite the future where he become stress due to be an eternal punching bag ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

But seriously it will become stalemate.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The problem is I say I agree with overwhelming so thats is not a problem.

Ohh okay. Im sorry

Well my suggestion works whether Yhwach is barely outclassed or immensly outclassed, so you agree with the post?

 

[FateAlbane]

Yes, like I said above, saying something like "He changes his stats to be superior via future" is silly talk.

Yhwach vs Goku would just be him getting speedblitzed, APstompmurdered non-stop.

...Then people are left to decide if Yhwach just being killed and resurrecting like a billion times to be a punching bag is Goku's victory or Inconclusive.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

@Fate this is like that time when someone pitted Elizabeth from Bioshock against Yukari. Sure there's an infinite amount of her, but that's not exactly stopping Yukari from absolutely shredding through her. At least last I saw that debate.

And that is not something I see as a tie if one person can't kill the other.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

How is that a stomp? If its a fight were both are matchable to each other then Yhwach can win but he wouldnt insta-stomp.

And again, what would that do? Being caught off guard wouldnt stop you from tanking the attack if you have equal than or greater durability. Plus Aizen is a horrible example as he would survive it anyway due to Immortality and regen.

Lowering your KI has nothing to do with lowering your guard IIRC, Vegeta did that intentionally. He has to passively manipulate his KI to lower it. And even if im wrong, this is Dragon-Ball exclusive. Where in other series has being caught off guard = lower durability to be taken out?

 

[AppleLord]

Whoa! Our friend @Barry went off-course there for a sec. Nothing he said makes sense.

Yhwach couldn't harm Ichibei or keep up with him. Yhwach harm Ichibei after unlocking the Almighty, the only times he tag Ichibei he wasn't moving.

No one is arguing that. All I said was that Yhwach had to activated the Almighty to keep up with Ichigo's Hollow form speed. He started to struggle to keep up before activating it.

Yeah, how is that possible. When Ichimonji removes all of his powers, for that go to my first point.

Just stop. Yhwach gets stomp. Seriously?

 

[Primaris_Brian]

My suggestion is his power will work on wherever he being barely outclassed or immensely outclassed but the effectiveness of his power will be reduce.

 

[AppleLord]

Lowering your KI has nothing to do with lowering your guard IIRC, Vegeta did that intentionally. He has to passively manipulate his KI to lower it. And even if im wrong, this is Dragon-Ball exclusive. Where in other series has being caught off guard = lower durability to be taken out?

Is been done in all battle shounen, and verses get equalized here.

 

[FateAlbane]

And that is not something I see as a tie if one person can't kill the other.

Yeah, personally I'd say getting killed like a billion times non-stop would give the victory to the one doing the beating, but you never know. ovo

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

My suggestion is his power will work on wherever he being barely outclassed or immensely outclassed but the effectiveness of his power will be reduce.

I partically agree with this.

If his opponent immensely surpasses him in ALL regards, meaning none of Yhwach's hax, techniques, AP, Speed and other stats can help him at all, then his Almighty's effectiveness should be reduced to 0 due to no futures Yhwach can forge to help him win in any way.

If its someone who barely outclasses Yhwach, then yes I agree Yhwach could still use Almighty to beat them, it just becomes more weaker and limited due to lesser possibilities for Yhwach winning.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Btw this still depend on how the match was concluded either only by dying once or truly death

or basically ask the OP on how he will declare someone as the victor.

 

[FateAlbane]

If the opponent immensely surpasses him in all regards, people would argue stomp tho.

 

[AppleLord]

My suggestion is his power will work on wherever he being barely outclassed or immensely outclassed but the effectiveness of his power will be reduce.

I partically agree with this.
If his opponent immensely surpasses him in ALL regards, meaning none of Yhwach's hax, techniques, AP, Speed and other stats can help him at all, then his Almighty's effectiveness should be reduced to 0 due to no futures Yhwach can forge to help him win in any way.

If its someone who barely outclasses Yhwach, then yes I agree Yhwach could still use Almighty to beat them, it just becomes more weaker and limited due to lesser possibilities for Yhwach winning.

I agree with this.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Is been done in all battle shounen, and verses get equalized here.

I dont recall that ever happening. Also Verse Equalization doesnt mean caught off guard = lower durability to be hit. Since when was that ever a thing?

 

[AppleLord]

Is been done in all battle shounen, and verses get equalized here.

I dont recall that ever happening. Also Verse Equalization doesnt mean caught off guard = lower durability to be hit. Since when was that ever a thing?

Verse equalization equals all aspects in-universe. That way characters can harm each other.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

And obviously this only will work on someone who stronger than him in the first place and not by use his/her hax to strengthen his/her strength as Yhwach just need to negate that like what he doing to ichibei when he try to weakened him.

 

[BarryAllen2.0]

@Applelord

If that's what you think than please reread the fight. And if you still disagree with me then lets agree to disagree. Don't feel like dragging this out.

 

[LordAizenSama]

AppleLord makes good points here, Before Yhwach used the Almighty his strength was on par with that of a ant, and then his power overcame that and won.

Like Saikou suggested it's pretty much Future reality warping

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

What separates Future Reality Warping from Reality Warping? Just curious.

And didn't he just use the power to cancel the weakening effects of the ability that lowered his stats and changed his name and identity? He used it when his stats are lowered to cancel it out after all. Not massively enhance himself to the point of even getting stronger, otherwise he wouldn't have needed the Spirit King in the first place.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Not much, to be honest.

He did, but that means his power worked on a much stronger beings power. Which is a discussion point in the OP on how would it work on stronger foes

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Well from whats mentioned above, Ichibei's ability isn't perfect and could be overwhelmed or negated. Such as if Yhwach understands it, then he can negate it.

And by that, if he gains the possibility of negating it, then futures with the possibility of negating it are born, which Yhwach used to negate the whole thing despite having an ants power.

Not saying this is right or wrong I just got this from earlier up in the thread.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Well by that logic speed and power is also not perfect since that was literally how midora minority world work. but obviously the stronger the opponent are the unlikely that will happen.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

@LordAizen

Aren't there though? He can't make things come to life so maybe a sub-variant? It seems to be more limited tbh. At least from what I've seen. I mean it's not that comparable to Gremmy's reality wapring, which is already a toned down reality warping.

True but it's not the perfect ability. It isn't render everything useless or absolute. I don't think it would be enough to basically buff up Yhwach to something of equal level to someone who stomps him physical wise as the others are saying.

@Professor

Pretty much this

@Not Jim Sterling

This is about the umpteenth time you confused me.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

See how minority world work and how it can be used to deflect an attack or slow down the enemy by reverse the tiniest minor possibility into majority.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Basically, unless someone can correct me, in Yhwach and Ichibe's case, Yhwach just used his "Understanding = Negating" ability to make the possibility of rendering Ichibe's powers period useless possible, and by that possibility being bor, a future in which Yhwach could beat him was born as well, and he used that future to beat Ichibe in the end.

Now in all honesty, there are 2 potential flaws we can choose from, which one I do not want to really get into as it will lead us right back to square one.

1st flaw- the "Understanding = Negating" thing is an NLF of itself before we even dip into Almighty, something I don't want to go into as it will just lead all of us back to sqaure one about trying to make the Almighty not an NLF.

Or

The other flaw is....the whole Ichibe vs Yhwach thing is PIS. Afterall, in a real fight, no one would ever explain the full depths of their powers just like that out of the blue (which Ichibe did) so I have a feeling that if Ichibe didnt do that and kept his mouth shut, he would have reduced the Almighty's effectiveness to 0 and thus will have removed all possibility of Yhwach using a future to beat him. Thus, I think we should consider this PIS as Yhwach would have never gotten that possibility if Ichibe didnt explain his powers to give Yhwach the chance to understand them and then the Almighty wouldnt have been capable of beating Ichibe (Besides, its not like in a VSfight Yhwach will get any sort of explantion about his opponents power anyway).

So in other words, I no longer think the Ichibe vs Yhwach thing should be referenced in this thread as I think its just PIS.

 

[Amlad22]

It doesn't matter if Yhwach knew the attack or not, he found a future where an ant overpowered a country buster. Logically that shouldn't even be possible. This is a sign to me that Yhwach isn't simply choosing pre set futures, he's creating completely new ones

Look at it like this, if an ant knew everything about how Ichibei's attacks worked, would that give it a chance at victory? Of course not

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Ichibei explain his power is irrelevant as Yhwach can see into the future and see how his power work.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Him understanding it apparently means negating it, which is what made it possible for Yhwach to see a possible future in which he could negate it and he used it. And if its Negating it, then power is not needed for that.

But again, I find this scene a PIS event due to Ichibe being a blabber mouth. If he never explained his power, Yhwach would literally never have the possibility of doing any of that.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

It doesn't matter since Ichibei only explain that his power can change name and by Yhwach ability to see into the future he will see and realize that he will lose his name due to ichibei power.

 

[Amlad22]

Looking at other fights we can find flaws in your logic. Yhwach had no idea what Ichigo's Bankai could do however he still easily broke it by creating a future where it was broken

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Besides, as I mentioned above, it depends on how big the gap is for the effectiveness of the Almighty to be towards an opponent. Or at least thats what im implying.

In this case, even if Ichibe legitimately had more AP then Yhwach did, by a lot, that doesnt neccesarily take away all possibility of Yhwach winning if you think about it. Ichibe may have had greater power at that moment but Yhwach had the better hax and that said hax, the Almighty, was what still left the possibility of Ichibe being defeated, thus futures of these possibilies existed and could be shaped upon by Yhwach.

 

[Amlad22]

If Yhwach can close a gap between below average human level power and country level powers than he can most likely do even more. There's nothing to say that Yhwach can't beat people millions of times stronger than he is

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Sure there is because thats where the NLF is from. Suggesting Almighty can allow Yhwach to close the gaps from lets say 3-B's to 3-A's is purely silly and absurd. Unless they're stats and/or hax are equal to or lower than Yhwach's, beings who are superior to him in all regards should have no possible way of losing, thus no possible futures to choose from. The result would be the same in every future.

Also, I don't know where you are getting this "creating a future" from. Unless im mistaken the Almighty doesnt do that at all. All it does is SEE all possible futures and TRANSFORMS them to MAKE them real. Besides, Bankai Ichigo was still considerably weaker than Yhwach at that time so whatever power it had didnt make much of a difference.

 

[Amlad22]

Yhwach has clearly shown that he can create futures that can never occur. Like when he became a human again after becoming an ant. There is no future where an ant negates ichimonji so he created a new one.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

What part of negating the effect of his stats being lowered is hard to understand? He wasn't an ant anymore whene he fought Ichibei again and oneshotted him. He was back at his full power. He negated his restraining effect and then went all out on Ichibei using the possible future where he attacked Ichibei and took him out.

 

[LordAizenSama]

Him understanding it apparently means negating it, which is what made it possible for Yhwach to see a possible future in which he could negate it and he used it. And if its Negating it, then power is not needed for that.
But again, I find this scene a PIS event due to Ichibe being a blabber mouth. If he never explained his power, Yhwach would literally never have the possibility of doing any of that.

Why do people keep getting so confused about this?

>Sees All> Anything seen Is understood from any given perspective > Negated.

Ichibei had nothing to do with any of it.