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Dragon Ball Super Tier 2 Debunk

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ShadowWarrior1999

ShadowWarrior1999

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Introductio

So as we know, Dragon Ball has a multiverse that contains 12 universes. So on the surface, busting all of them would seem like a 2-C feat, right? While universes typically have their own space-times, Dragon Ball doesn't follow this since all universes are in the same timeline. But there is a blog explaining why they're separate, so I will deconstruct it.

"All the universes are physically away from each other"
Being physically away from each other doesn't prove that they are in separate space-times. You can have multiple universal spaces in a single space-time continuum. This is something called a quilted multiverse. That would explain the Dragon Ball universes sharing a timeline.

Additionally, the argument that they can't be reached through simple flight wouldn't matter if the universes have spatial boundaries, as they can have those but still share a space-time continuum.

"Future Trunks' timeline has his own versions of Zamasu, Gowasu, and Zeno"
So the main argument here is that the person who made the blog can't recall when a timeline has affected all 12 universes. Except for the blatantly obvious timeline splitting. When new timelines are created splitting off from the original one, it creates a new copy of all 12 universes, not just for instance Universe 7. If the universes were in separate space-times, a new timeline should not contain the other 11 universes, just the universe that the timeline was originally a part of.

"After Zeno destroyed the future Multiverse, Goku and Trunks could still reach that point in time through time travel"
First, I will say this, Infinite Zamasu is not Low 2-C. He is 3-A. He's only mentioned to be becoming one with Universe 7. The English dub mentions him becoming one with the fabric of the cosmos, but the original Japanese version obviously takes precedence where this is never stated. Now yes, Zamasu does leak into the present, but that doesn't mean he is merging with space-time, this is simply range/dimensional travel.

Now with that settled, lets move on to Whis's statement. The argument is that because Whis said he believes it was possible for Trunks to return to a point back in time before his world was erased, that means he isn't certain and implies that time was erased. However, now that I explained why Infinite Zamasu isn't Low 2-C, we have no reason to assume that Zeno destroyed time. Not only that, but Whis appears to be knowledgeable on Zeno, so he would likely be aware if Zeno had the ability to erase time. Whis bringing up the possibility of Trunks being able to return to his world would only imply that just the physical universes were destroyed with the timeline still being there.

Conclusion
Simple. Every Dragon Ball character rated as Low 2-C or 2-C gets downgraded to 3-A. The way Dragon Ball's cosmology is shown to work demonstrates each timeline being a quilted multiverse, so there are no tier 2 feats in the series.
 
Here we go again with this.

This must be exhausting for staff and knowledgeable members to explain this like millions of times.

Anyway, I am following this to see how long this thread will last until it gets closed.
 
"Space-time" being the default model used for differing whole universes is a flawed position. Time isn't inherently the "fourth dimension" (the model of ordinal dimensions in itself is already flawed) and it hasn't been treated that way on this wiki for a long time. The spatial structure of a universe, itself, is what is four-dimensional, and the definition of a universe encompasses all existing matter and space considered as a whole. This makes universes defaultly four-dimensional and a multiverse of separate universes a 2-C or higher structure inherently, regardless of whether or not they share time, since time isn't a relevant factor when determining that sort of thing. This would also just make timelines in Dragon Ball 2-C structures.

This also means that becoming one with the universe is a Low 2-C feat, since he becomes all existing space of the universe, and whether or not Zeno destroyed time is completely irrelevant, as detailed above.
 
thie first para doe snot disprove anything.....they are still separate universal spacetime continuums

the second para does not disprove anything...separate spacetime continuums can be in a single big timeline and can be affected by time travel...htc, heaven hell for example

third para, infinite zamasu is low 2-c....whis is certain and sound like you are reaching.....zeno destroyed the whole future world not just the matter....i dont even understand what you tried to say
 
@HrishikeshM

1) Just saying "they are still separate space-time continuums" isn't a refute to anything I said.

2) Heaven and Hell aren't separate space-times, unless you're implying a single universe is 2-C. Separate universes are their own timelines, not part of one.

3) "Infinite Zamasu is Low 2-C because he is" isn't a refute either. Zeno destroyed the future multiverse but time travel was still possible.
 
So this would debunk the low multiversal DBS cast then. It is far fetched since they existed in the same time and space implying only one universe would get destroyed so its back to being universal.
 
Niarobi (Formerly Hadou) said:
"Space-time" being the default model used for differing whole universes is a flawed position. Time isn't inherently the "fourth dimension" (the model of ordinal dimensions in itself is already flawed) and it hasn't been treated that way on this wiki for a long time. The spatial structure of a universe, itself, is what is four-dimensional, and the definition of a universe encompasses all existing matter and space considered as a whole. This makes universes defaultly four-dimensional and a multiverse of separate universes a 2-C or higher structure inherently, regardless of whether or not they share time, since time isn't a relevant factor when determining that sort of thing. This would also just make timelines in Dragon Ball 2-C structures.
This also means that becoming one with the universe is a Low 2-C feat, since he becomes all existing space of the universe, and whether or not Zeno destroyed time is completely irrelevant, as detailed above.
Click to expand...
@Radical
 
Niarobi (Formerly Hadou) said:
"Space-time" being the default model used for differing whole universes is a flawed position. Time isn't inherently the "fourth dimension" (the model of ordinal dimensions in itself is already flawed) and it hasn't been treated that way on this wiki for a long time. The spatial structure of a universe, itself, is what is four-dimensional, and the definition of a universe encompasses all existing matter and space considered as a whole. This makes universes defaultly four-dimensional and a multiverse of separate universes a 2-C or higher structure inherently, regardless of whether or not they share time, since time isn't a relevant factor when determining that sort of thing. This would also just make timelines in Dragon Ball 2-C structures.
This also means that becoming one with the universe is a Low 2-C feat, since he becomes all existing space of the universe, and whether or not Zeno destroyed time is completely irrelevant, as detailed above.
Click to expand...
I agree with Niarobi, the feat in which Fused Zamasu became one with the universe should make it inherently a Low 2-C feat, his entire arugmentation about the universes strcuture granting it this tier is well made and allows for the feat to pass or be used correctly in that regard.

So yeah, I overall believe this entire attempt at debunking the tier 2 scaling for Super is flawed in that regard.
 
"DBS is only 3-A you wankers"

Yeah, we are NOT doing this again. The Universes in DBS have 3 universal bodies that form the U7 Macrocosm and this has been simply put to the side because of ignorance and an appeal to tradition.

First of all, filler or not, Buuhan is able to affect the very fabric of the mortal universe and break the walls between dimensions. These dimensional wall are what separate the Afterlife, Kai realm and Mortal Universe. They're evidently 4D barriers because these same walls separate the Mortal universe from the ROSAT. Dende and Vegito even go as far as to call them Alternate Dimensions. Vice Shout specifically affect space time, so if it isn't blatant enough, space and time runs through the different realms.

This feat happens in DBZ and DBZ Kai, which would also relate closer the the anime version of DBS. In DBZ Kai they show said Macrocosm and how they're separated. And what do you know its same exact structure also appears in the freaking manga. And it was even drawn by Toriyama.

Here it says that the Mortal Universe is based off our universe or universes in Sci-fi, implying that it's its own 4D space. Now if you look at the map, the Sacred Realm of the Kai is literally located outside of the universe and even looks like it's separated by its own 4D bubble.

As for traveling to them, the only ways to do so is by Warp, Kai Kai, and Instant Transmission. These are the only techniques that can take you to these realms and they're all dimension travel abilities, just look at the abilities of Goku, Shi, and Whis. Speaking of Whis, the only way to travel to other numbered universes is by Whis' staff. That same ability is needed for traveling to the Afterlife and so on.

There's far too much evidence to think everything is just 3-A. Ignorance incarnate amirite.

Two more things, the reason Goku and Trunks were able to travel to the void is because Zeno destroyed everything in the timeline, not the timeline itself. And the whole statement the the Buuhan thing is filler is irrelevant. Why the hell would the universe's structure be different in DBS when we treat it the same for DBZ (anime and manga), DBZ Kai, DBS (anime and manga) DBGT, Xenoverse, and Heroes? It's drawn by Toriyama and literally and that's what's they're intended to be

But of course what I say is gonna get brushed off because I'm a wanker. This should be abruptly closed like the past upgrade threads because quite frankly DBS is going no where in terms of scaling.
 
Note: We consider the universes in Dragon Ball alternate timespaces relative each other, hence why Zen'ō is rated as 2-C, despite the events in the Goku Black Saga showing parallel timelines encompassing the whole of the multiverse.

The reason for this is that Universe 7 by itself has already been shown to contain parallel space-time continuums within its globe, such as the Room of Spirit and Time, which is still affected by time travel; which proves that the new timelines can encompass other space-times as well, and thus the events in the Future Trunks Saga don't prove anything in the way of the universes being physically connected.
 
I agree with AKM Sama, there's nothing new here. And Zamasu was clearly merging with Space-Time and it's outright mentioned that he is.
 
Niarobi (Formerly Hadou) said:
"Space-time" being the default model used for differing whole universes is a flawed position. Time isn't inherently the "fourth dimension" (the model of ordinal dimensions in itself is already flawed) and it hasn't been treated that way on this wiki for a long time. The spatial structure of a universe, itself, is what is four-dimensional, and the definition of a universe encompasses all existing matter and space considered as a whole. This makes universes defaultly four-dimensional and a multiverse of separate universes a 2-C or higher structure inherently, regardless of whether or not they share time, since time isn't a relevant factor when determining that sort of thing. This would also just make timelines in Dragon Ball 2-C structures.
This also means that becoming one with the universe is a Low 2-C feat, since he becomes all existing space of the universe, and whether or not Zeno destroyed time is completely irrelevant, as detailed above.
Click to expand...
This is kind of wrong considering that in order to bust a universe completely, you'd have to destroy the space/time continuum. Second of all, the wiki does in fact use this model. In order to be Low 2-C the tiring system literally states "characters who can destroy and/or create the entire 4-dimensional space-time of a single universe, not just the physical matter within one. For example, an entire timeline."

An entire timeline was not destroyed by Zeno if Future Trunks can still return back to it. Also, you'd also have to provide evidence and proof that Dragon Ball even has 2-C structures because I'm sure it doesn't. They all share the same timeline. Zamasu was also becoming one with Universe 7, he wasn't actually going to bust the space/time continuum yet.

Also, keep in mind the definition of the Universe also includes space AND time as well into the equation. So, what you're saying is kind of incorrect.
 
@Shadow

You just don't give up do you? Your arguments were debunked many times in different CRT threads before. Many of those users, refuting your arguments and you ignore them and only refute the ones with less knowledgeable on the subject. That's just my observation on all this and on previous CTR threads.

That's some cheap debating tactic to me.

You were debunked so bad that you left CRT thread (Where all Angels and SSJ Blue Gegeta were upgraded) and then complained later on the following thread ( I think it was Gegeta blue Tier CRT).

Anyway, I'll leave to the staff to close it since it violates the Dragon ball discussion rule.
 
@Maverick Zero X

I assumed @Shadow is old enough to defend himself, am I right?

I'm just typing the obvious from my observation in all of this. If you think I am trying to provoke him then you are wrong.
 
AKM sama said:
Note: We consider the universes in Dragon Ball alternate timespaces relative each other, hence why Zen'ō is rated as 2-C, despite the events in the Goku Black Saga showing parallel timelines encompassing the whole of the multiverse.
The reason for this is that Universe 7 by itself has already been shown to contain parallel space-time continuums within its globe, such as the Room of Spirit and Time, which is still affected by time travel; which proves that the new timelines can encompass other space-times as well, and thus the events in the Future Trunks Saga don't prove anything in the way of the universes being physically connected.
Click to expand...
But the ROSAT is an outlier compared to every other dimension/universe in regards to how time flows differently. This doesn't really disprove anything, as the main universes still all affected by time the same way. Otherwise the time lines all having their own version of the different universes in the Future Trunks Saga wouldn't make sense. If anything that would imply that the way flow of time functions within the ROSAT is more closely tied to that of the main universe than we might think.
 
@Maverick Zero X

LOL..

Actually I did not accused his dishonesty just his tactics that he does on previous DBS CTR. @Shadow was debunked so bad on previous threads. That's was my observation on it. He never counter refuted @AKM sama and others just he ones that did not know how to explained themselves on the subject. He left the thread and following the thread after a weeks or so complained there.

So what if it is about Dragon Ball's cosmology. If this goes through which I doubt then everything will get downgraded.
 
Everyone please drop the hostility. Talking to both sides. Anyway, I still with AKM Sama that this is a repeatedly over done topic. And yes, the afterlifes are indeed contained in the same timeline as the living universes, but the Hyperbolic Time Chamber indeed has its own Space-Time.

And Zamasu was easily stated to be merging with "The World". The World generally refers to the 12 Universes as well as the Space-Time containing all of them. Yes, it is complicated, but a single Timeline containing the 12 Universes would be a 2-C feat; given there's at least one other sub timeline within it. Zamasu whether or not he merged with any universes beyond 7 was legit merging with Space-Time. Either Universe 7 does have its own timeline, which would still make merging with it Low 2-C. Or he also merged with the Timeline as a whole. It can't really go both ways.

The Tier 2 characters are remaining either way.
 
Infinite Zamasu was only stated to be becoming one with Universe 7. He didn't merge with any others.
 
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