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Dragon Ball Super Tier 2 Debunk

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@Shadow "OK, and where did I ever say it did? You're still completely missing the point. You're trying to use this example as for why we shouldn't treat the Universes as having different Space-Times... I'm trying to refute this and saying this point doesn't intel one or the other Models".

"The current model is treated as an entire timeline encompassing all 12 Universe, each Universe containing its own Space-Time Continumm." Here. "

Shadow.... This comment: "OK, and where did I ever say it did? " Is in reference to, "the model doesn't automatically prove them being separate space-times "

I never said in this comment: "The current model is treated as an entire timeline encompassing all 12 Universe, each Universe containing its own Space-Time Continumm" that it automatically proved them being separate space-times, I'm saying this is how we currently treat it, so what example does this currently model fail in - You did NOT give one.

"If the universes are sharing a timeline that goes against the notion of them being separate space-times in the first place. A timeline by default is one space-time continuum. "

How does that go against such a notion? Explain to me how it does, please. All I've heard so far is that it goes against it, without someone really explaining why.


"Where? In the OP where I said all the universes are in the same space-time. "

What? This comment was in reference to why does Zamasu becoming one with Universe 7 matter with him affecting Space-Time, instead of the whole world.

"Not inherently. For example, Bender became one with the universe but he's 3-A. And since I'm saying Universe 7 doesn't have its own space-time, that's further reason for Infinite Zamasu not being Low 2-C. "

It still has a Universal size Space-Time nevertheless, so it would still give him a Low 2-C. rating. I'm not saying, "Him saying he's becoming one in the Universe proves he's also affecting Space-Time" It's me saying, "Him saying he's becoming one in the Universe, in conjunction with him being able to affect another Time-Line through his very own existence, means that we should go with him being able to affect Space-Time, and not just affecting the matter."

"The default is that universes would be their own timelines and not share a timeline with other universes. "

Why don't we do that to any other verse? The default position should of course be we treat the Universe as having different Space-Times, it all being encompassed into one huge Time-Line, unless we have evidence to the contrary (An example of where the model fails in).


"
 
The Universe size calculation is just another way of exploiting calculations to wank the verse.

Its the same as calculating the size of the Planet to get a higher result,which we don't do by default.
 
Zamasu Chan said:
@Shadow. It being a timeline or not is irrelevant because that just shows that large 4D structures can hold 4D structures.
Click to expand...
But you haven't proved that the universes in Dragon Ball are 4D.
 
I don't have an opinion on this, but I'll point out two things:

  • In the manga, when Zeno erased the Future Timeline's multiverse, the Time Ring corresponding to that timeline was subsequently destroyed in the present. Though Goku was still able to come back and pick up Future Zeno still using the Time Machine, so you could consider either one a plot hole (most likely the former since it didn't also happen in the anime, and would thus be just Toyotero's addition)
  • Before expanding to the rest of the universe, Zamasu became one with the planet's stratosphere first. So the "he can only become one with space-time and nothing else" is kind of fallacious.
 
Buuhan's ability is non-canon, but Zamasu was just trying to say the existing dimensional barriers and Space-Time Anomalies are still canon.
 
To me it seems that the only rational people in all of this are ShadowWarrior, ProfessorKuKui and DarkDragon. Almost everyone else in this are letting their biases cloud their judgement. I am not gonna choose a side in all this but I am gonna comment my thoughts on the matter.

I don't think is it right to downgrade everyone who is Tier 2 to 3-A because there have been High 3-A feats showcased during the T.O.P. arc. For example, when Toppo utilized his hakaishin powers, he warped the entire infinite space of the void where the tournament was held. You can automatically say that Jiren, Goku, Vegeta, the Gods of Destruction, Angels, Daishinkan, and Zeno are above this since they are equal/superior to Toppo. You might even argue Android 17 and Frieza since they stood their ground somewhat, but I am not gonna go much into that right now.
 
Zamasu Chan said:
Dragon ball has multiple multiverses like how other fictions like Marvel have Infinite amounts of infinite multiverses. I guess that means each infinite multiverse is high 3-A.
And many of the questions are asking to "prove the universes are 4D" is literally just proving a negative.
Click to expand...


This is wrong and it's not even similar to Marvel. Marvel has an infinite amount of realities, realms, possibilities, and so on. Dragon Ball doesn't even operate under this same concept at all, it wasn't even stated. Whis outlined the fact that there are 12 universes, actually the world of Dragon Ball was originally comprised of 18 universes but Zeno destroyed 6 of them when he was slightly offended.

That's not it either. You need to prove Zamasu, Zeno, and the like are 4D because they've never busted a timeline nor have they destroyed a single space/time continuum.
 
@Niarobi

"I'd just like to mention that "spacetime" itself is already theoretical, since time isn't provably a mathematical dimension and doesn't inherently function as one, and there was a thread awhile back talking about this and why destroying universe should normally be considered Low 2-C instead of 3-A because of the definition of universe. Destroying all matter and space considered as a whole would just be inherently Low 2-C. The 3-A/High 3-A stuff is just destroying all of the matter within the universe, while Low 2-C is destroying the universe, itself, as was quoted by you.

It gives a timeline as an example, but that doesn't mean that it has to be a timeline to be Low 2-C, especially since this is arguably a timeline that is 2-C in size."

Okay, I remember that thread and various admins rejected the idea of making all universal feats Low 2-C. Vs Battle Wiki never updated or revised their tiring system, so I'm going to go by what is already stated. You said, "destroying all matter and space considered as a whole would just be inherently Low 2-C"? Once again, this contradicts what's stated in the tiring system for what is required to be Low 2-C. It states that you need to destroy the entirety or create a 4 dimensional space/time of a single universe, not just the physical matter itself.

It gives a timeline as an example to further emphasize it's point. Zeno never fully busted a timeline because Trunks could still go back there. Zamasu never fully reached the power to where he can affect the space/time continuum of a single universe. Therefore, if you don't have any feats of these characters being 4D we can't assume they are anything higher than 3-A.
 
@Radical, constantly saying "It's getting wanked isn't helping the cause."

I know Sera and Ultima Reality had plans since there's been far too much debate left and right about the individual universes having their own Space-Times. One side says it's a quilted multiverse with multiple bodies of space within a single timeline which is partially true at least. But the fact of the matter is, Zamasu was stated to be merging with "The World" as well as merging with Space-Time. While there are other signs of space-time in other sources given the existence of other dimensions. So Infinite Zamasu is legit Low 2-C. Zeno's feat is also legit 2-C as it is stated he could destroy all existence. And a single timeline still does legit contain other sub timelines such as the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. It's debatable if Universe 1-12 have their own timelines, but the afterlifes do not. Plus he did legit erase the timeline they were in; it's just the present was another timeline. Whis also confirmed that Beerus killing Zamasu basically turned their timeline into a new one. Zamasu was also legit merging with not only his timeline, but beginning to merge with other timelines as well.

I don't mind if the Angels get downgraded back to Low 2-C, but Zeno and perhaps Super Shenron are easily 2-C. And those superior to Zamasu are easily Low 2-C.

Also, Sera is right. We aren't merging the 3-A and Low 2-C tiers, but we did say Low 2-C is the baseline for characters who can legit "Destroy all existence". But that's a different issue altogether. And Marvel comparison was awful, yes.
 
Sera EX said:
Dragon Ball is not comparable to Marvel in terms of cosmology. Not even remotely close.
Click to expand...
Nobody said this. All Zamasu said was that DB has multiple multiverses like Marvel and over verses do.

"Dragon ball has multiple multiverses like how other fictions like Marvel have Infinite amounts of infinite multiverses."
 
@Sera, there was a revision a couple months ago. The Gods of Destruction god upgraded to well above baseline Low 2-C due to having half the amount of power to perform a 2-C feat, which Angels were considered far superior to the combined might of Beerus and Champa. I know it was controversial, but we did have a long discussion and that become the decision. @AKM Sama would probably have more details.
 
That's one of the most ludicrous things I've heard this year. The Dragon Ball "far above baseline" and "1000+ times baseline" Low 2-C stuff I've been hearing about needs to stop.

I don't even care about Low 2-C itself at this point. It's how high into Low 2-C and 2-C for anyone that isn't Zen'ō that Ultima and I specifically said needs to be "downgraded".
 
Well, unless Ultima drops by and quantifies what a quilted multiverse is by our standards, Low 2-C isn't being debunked any time soon.
 
Yeah, it was due to people considering Universe 7 and 6 separate timelines and having half the unquantifiable power required to destroy two timelines for each Beerus and Champa. Ryukama and DragonMaster said they don't want to get involved in Dragon Ball threads. And I too agreed that it seemed iffy.

Once again, I can support the Angels of GoD simply being Low 2-C due to being superior to Infinite Zamasu. But as I said, I'm Infinite Zamasu shouldn't be downgraded anytime soon. We went over it far too many times.
 
I don't blame them, these threads are toxic just like HST ones. They bring out the ugly in people.
 
Just gonna say, its already been established that even within the sperate universes there exist seperate space time continum like ROSAT, other world, Demon realm etc. and they get replicated to with new timelines. Sure the way the new timelines work is a bit odd given they replicate multiple space times that are nested in the timeline, making it more like a multiverse being replicated, but it's just the way it is in this particular verse.

We know that Zeno is described as being able to "erase the world" by himself when fighting Zamasu, and by Whis to.

Also Zamasu is clearly said to be one with the Universe and shown to not just fuse with at least all U7 in Trunks timeline, but also to be effecting other timelines like the present, and already havign his pressence start to effect all the way out to Beerus and Whis who feel his energy on their skin. He is clearly doing at least a low 2-C feat.

I think the most relevant points have been adressed already above in detail and I see no reason to downgrade.

This has been discussed a million times, and all these points have been brought up. The Universes have consistently been accepted as at least low-2C structures in "canon", with many arguing they are actually 2-C even.

I will leave it at that, but I of course do not support a downgrade here.
 
A lot of verses are toxic; lots of mainstream anime/manga verses like the aforementioned ones, Nasuverse, Fairy Tail I think I heard, Nasuverse, and plenty of others. Sonic the Hedgehog threads are also super toxic.
 
@DDM You say that "Zamasu was stated to be merging with "The World" as well as merging with Space-Time."

Where was this stated? Gowasu only mentions that Zamasu might be trying to become the universe, not the entire timeline.
 
I don't quite remember the exact statement, but I was in a discussion with Zamasu chan on my wall a long time ago. The Japanese version said õ©ûþòî/Sekai (Meaning "The World") as opposed to Õ«çÕ«Ö/Uchü (Meaning Universe). Furthermore, he was clearly stated to be merging with Time and Space and was over time going to be merging with other timelines.
 
Ah yes, there it is. The reasoning for Zeno blowing up the whole world is also due to Zamasu's existence. And that none of the other 12 universes should exist due to his existence.
 
Zamasu Chan said:
Zeno says verbatim "A world like this must disappear", implying he was merging with the 12 universes.
Click to expand...
Zeno was literally referring to Universe 7, nothing in that video even states that Zamasu was merging with the 12 universes. Zamasu literally was about to merge with just one universe. Zeno literally just nuked the contents within the timeline, since Whis states later on that Future Trunks can still travel back to it.
 
Whis said nothing about that, he said there was an entirely new timeline in which some of his loved ones are alive. That's where they traveled; he wasn't referring to the white void remained when Zeno erased everything. "The World" whenever used by the gods of Dragon Ball Super also refers to the 12 Universes, not any singular universe. World means the timeline in this context.
 
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