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Dragon Ball Super Cosmology

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The_Causality

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Well, that's a thread to discuss about the DB cosmology, this verse is currently treated as 2-C because we consider that each universe have their own space time but it seem this claim is false and the 12 Universe have the same Space-time. if this is true, it will change everything in the verse, Zen'o will be Low 2-C again and more.

So this thread is to choose the right Cosmology of this verse and potentially change all the characters's current ranting, let's debate i guess.
 
Long story short, i'm for the 12 universes having a shared timeline.

That's at least what's intended in the Zamasu Saga, with the time rings stuff
 
The first thing to establish is if we have a reason to believe Fused Zamasu merged with Space-Time to become a 4D entity, making him and all others stronger Low 2-C. And he did travel into the past as his Infinite Zamasu form, so he did merge with Space Time it seems. The fact that he traveled into the past of U7 specifically isn't an argument for separate timelines though because he did so thanks to the Time Machine. Even still, he couldn't timetravel as a full being like that without merging with space-time.

Essentially, my explanation is that he merged with Universe 7's portion of Space-time and travelled backwards through the time machine's portal. Keeping him and all above him Low 2-C with Zeno being WAY WAY WAY above them.
 
ProudLearner said:
Each universe have twins yet they have their own Space-Times Subbed and English DUB as you can see they are separated but they have their own all most copy.
Click to expand...
Honestly, the fact that Universe 7's time travelling create Time ring in Universe 10 show that all universe have the same time, and what you show doesn't imply Time-space.
 
Sera should be the one to make this thread, staff only too. No offense, but if Seras the one with the argument to debunk this then she should be the one to make this thread, in detail, on why the downgrade needs to go through.

Again, not to be rude. This should just be handled far better.
 
According to Sera:

In DB, a universe is defined as "planets, stars, a large number of galaxies, the contents of intergalactic space, and all contents of mater and energy." IIRC this is from Daizenshuu 4.

You know as well as I do that the word "multiverse" (multi-dimensional space time) is never once used in the original Japanse script of DBS. It's only the dub that uses the term.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Sera should be the one to make this thread, staff only too. No offense, but if Seras the one with the argument to debunk this then she should be the one to make this thread, in detail, on why the downgrade needs to go through.
Again, not to be rude. This should just be handled far better.
Click to expand...
Headshot

Anyway, you're fine, i'll let the staff decide if this should be closed.
 
This thread's fine honestly. I don't think making it staff only will solve anything either.
 
That's true, but they're shown to be separate physically. Which line up with the infinite universe size statements and could preserve the idea that they have some degree of physical separation, if not by time then by standard space. I dunno if that makes anything Low 2-C on its own or not, but they definitely don't seem to share a physical place.
 
Just compare the language used between DBS and DBX/DBH. In DBS they refer to everything as the "cosmos" while in DBH they go into detail about multiple timelines and use the term "time-space".

Beerus even comments on this in Xenoverse 2, I believe if he's your mentor, but I don't remember the specifics.
 
Btw why is stuff such as DB Xenoverse and Heroes being used as evidence (in the Gogeta thread) against a separate time-space? I thought that they had no bearing on the actual canon (until they're confirmed to exist)
 
I mean, that first point of them not being physically away from each other seems pretty strong. Even when they look like they kinda connect, the circle distorts on the inside, which could imply that what we're looking at isn't the physical universes in structure, but from a different perspective. If we are to believe thr universes are physically infinite, this distortion and some kind of spatial separation makes sense with what's presented in both Whis's visuals, and the drawings of the universes. Same reason why you can't fly to heaven is the same reason why you can't travel to the other universes unless you teleport or do what whis did.
 
We've been through this song and dance so many times already ffs

Do we actually have new points to actually downgrade Dragon Ball back to Low 2-C that hasn't already been addressed already?

I don't want to sound hostile but this is so utterly same-sounding that this is straight up starting to become annoying.

Now from what I've skimmed over in my sleep-deprived state that is right now...

Japanese is weird in the fact that their usage of Universe, Cosmos, World, etc. can all either be the planets, physical universe, or an entire Space-Time. Heck, last I checked the word Timeline doesn't even exist in Japanese. So them not directly referencing Timeline isn't evidence that the DBS World isn't separate Space-Times.

Now for that Gogeta Blue Tier page...

What in the actual hell is going on? Why in the world are they discussing for a DBS Downgrade? They seem to be completely ignoring every piece of evidence we've already gone through to upgrade DBS in the first place.

In the very thread that proposed the downgrade of 2-C, the notion was addressed since the original dialogue had absolutely no mentions of Zamasu using "A Time Travel Portal" or whatever to go to U7. It was all Zamasu's work and his alone; nothing implies that he used a 3rd Party.

Oh and Infinite Zamasu coming out of a portal literally means nothing since being able to puncture through Space-Time to reach U7 means that Zamasu is still Low 2-C/4-D with 2-C Potential (Being 4D with the ability to traverse the 5D Axis to reach other timelines).

And the idea that Zeno only used 3-A power to kill Zamasu... What even? Trunks flat out said that "This should be the coordinates", meaning that he didn't target his timeline specifically but rather it's position prior to it's destruction. Like if I saved a position and I went away before everything got nuked and I teleported back to my saved position. My teleporting and position is not reliant on the things around me existing. This is backed up by early Episode Synopsises saying that they found the Future Zeno floating in a void. Meaning that the Timeline (Or at least Universe) wasn't there anymore.

And finally, people that were disagreeing with 2-C Champa and Beerus (They aren't though? They're an insanely high level of Low 2-C) pretty much didn't even read the 2-C Upgrade thread.

Champa and Beerus share a 2-C Feat at minimum; meaning that at the very least, each one is busting their own Space-Time. However since they were both in U7 at the time, their energies must have the ability to cross Space-Times.

Since the feat is shared, they aren't 2-C themselves. However since we now established that they can travel between Space-Times (The only reason why we can't use Multipliers to upgrade a tier), anybody that's 2x stronger than them should be 2-C as they no longer have the restriction of "We can't use multipliers since the difference is unquantifiable" as the thing that makes it unquantifiable is no longer a problem.
 
Come on guys, stop taking everything so seriously. No one is seriously trying to downgrade DB, not at the moment anyway. I even said so on the last thread. No one is trying to downgrade Zeno. But no one but Zeno is 2-C. That's all I care about.
 
The entire argument is based on Beerus and Champa destroying Universe 6 and 7 by fighting seriously. We have no reason to assume they would destroy Universe 7 then 6, so we must believe they would destroy Universe 6 AND 7.

There is zero evidence that the multiverse is a singular space time. So I believe Sera's argument is meant to actually tie into twin universes sharing a space time, such as Universe 6 and 7. So, focus on THIS point.

  • Do twin universes (Such as 6 and 7) share a spacetime?
 
This should probably be closed because this is was more of a backup plan, according to Sera's comment.
 
While I am agreeing that this thread should be closed, I disagree on dropping the matter as a whole.

Beerus and Champa's feat being 2-C (which is the reason why anyone that isnt Zen'o is 2-C as well) is solely dependant on us accepting the universes in the DBS multiverse as being separate space-times or not. If you agree that they are seperate space-times, then you have to accept Beerus and Champa doing a 2-C feat, no matter what, because there's literally nothing else it can be. Destroying 2 separate space-times is a 2-C feat, which is what the both of them combined do and thus anyone whos above their combined power should be 2-C as well.

But if you disagree with Beerus and Champa doing this feat on a 2-C level and having it be scaled to others like Gogeta, then you're arguing that its a 3-A level feat, which means the universes in the verse would have to be sharing the same space-time in order for this disagreement to stand.

It's literally one or the other, no inbetweens, no ifs, ands or buts. The feats either 3-A level or 2-C level guys. Pick your poison.
 
I've been neutral on the upgrades for the Angels being '2-C, and AKM Sama did have a good sense of judgement. But I'm leaning towards the cosmology stuff Ultima and Sera said. Dragon Ball's "Multiverse" does appear to be a Quilted Multiverse. Multiple bodies of space contained in an a single timeline. However, multiple timelines do exist.

However, Zeno has other reasons for his 2-C rating. Zamasu was clearly merging with "The World" which is basically the timeline containing all the 12 Universes. And has showcased that he will eventually merge with other timelines. However, Zeno undoubtedly would have the power to oneshot Infinite Zamasu even if he did merge with two or more timelines. So Zeno would be 2-C regardless. Zeno is also clearly capable of destroying "All existence" meaning he could effect other timelines if he wanted to.

So yeah, no one is suggesting Zeno will be downgraded, and Matt was joking about 3-A Zeno or Zamasu. However, the part they do care about is that only Zeno is 2-C, and Zamasu can only reach 2-C over time. Beerus and Champa destroying two universes is also questionable tbh. It's also kind of been showcased that Universe 10 and Universe 7 were in the same timeline, but Whis has still traveled to other timelines.
 
Each timeline has their own Zeno and "all of existence" could just be referring to the 12 universes inside the timeline. So if the cosmology gets downgraded, Zeno would become Low 2-C.
 
I know each timeline has their own Zeno, but a single Zeno has the power to effect more than one timeline. I do remember that time Ryukama tried to upgrade Zeno to 2-B which I can definitely agree is too far and that 2-C would be better. But Zeno would still be 2-C as he's superior to Infinite Zamasu no matter what. Even after he merges with other timelines.
 
I don't think it can be assumed that Zeno is superior to a fully realized Infinite Zamasu that never actually happened in the show. Zeno destroyed him before he could become 2-C.
 
Shadow, assuming Zamasu can surpass Zeno is the baseless wank here— it ignores the precident that Zeno is all but untouchable as the absolute god tier of the verse. You need a reason to believe Zamasu poses a threat to Zeno, not the reverse. In addition, if staff agrees that merging with a space time is still low 2-C then nothing really gets changed besides Gogeta and the Angels, as everyone at this point is superior to merged zamasu.
 
^

I'm sorry if this sounds like I am inciting tension here but, claiming Gogeta scaling to 2-C is 'wank' then turning around and claiming Infinite Zamasu would have surpassed Zeno is just hilarious. That's hypocrisy of the highest degree.
 
It only depends on Beerus and Champa's feat being 2-C really. Nothing else changes because Zamasu is still Low 2-C no matter what.
 
Exactly. That's the ONLY topic that is relevant or important regarding this entire series of debates (Beerus/Champa feat being 2-C --> Gogeta being 2-C --> Dragon Ball cosmology being Low 2-C or 2-C). We'll see what Sera has to say regarding the cosmology, which will dictate 2-C Dragon Ball but it will not dictate Low 2-C Dragon Ball.
 
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