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Very Important Dragon Ball Super Revision (Continued)

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ProfessorKukui4Life

ProfessorKukui4Life

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Continued from here . The original thread got massively derailed, so i'll repost my proposals.

Original Topic
For what the purpose of this thread is for, the revision would be discussing the legitimacy of the DBS cosmology. If whether the universe's in the Dragon Ball Multiverse are in their own space-times, or not. Yes, I know that we've had this discussio numerous times, so this isnt our first rodeo. However, due to a current consensus that we accept and apply to the Dragon Ball verse here, a huge problem in consistency comes from it that I and other users have recently noticed after this recent thread to try and upgrade the Gods of Destruction. To try and resolve it, this is where this thread comes from. I'll explain in more detail below.

This is where the problem would originate from. Currently, one of our discussion rules for Dragon Ball Super is this one:

"Also, do not try to upgrade the Gods of Destruction to 2-C based on the outcome of a hypothetical Champa and Beerus fight destroying their respective universes, as the statement likely referred to them destroying all the matter within their universes, with no proof of space-time being affected."

We currently reject the idea that Beerus and Champa would destroy the space-times of Universe 6 and Universe 7 based on Whis and Vados's statement, ultimately disagreeing with them receiving a tier 2-C upgrade that would likely result in accepting this idea. However, me and a few other users found a problem with this discussion rule.

Since we reject Beerus and Champa being able to destroy the space-times of their respective universes, that means we only accept them destroying the matter of their respecitive universes, as the discussion rule itself says. But if we only accept them destroying the matter of their respective universes, that means we're accepting and currently going with the idea that Beerus and Champa can breech the dimensional walls between their universes and destroy only the matter of Universe 6 and Universe 7. In other words, by accepting this discussion rule, we're accepting that Beerus and Champa can breech dimensional walls and destroy the 2 universes with 3-A level attacks. Which would be flat out impossible to happen without being able to affect space-time. Unless, as an exception, Universe 6 and 7 share the same space-time as each other and reside in the same space-time continuum as each other. However, that is something else that we also do not accept since we currently accept the universes in the Dragon Ball Super Multiverse to be their own individual space-times.

So im sure everyone should see the problem. This ends up creating a significant inconsistency between the 2 thats paradoxal. One one hand, we treat Beerus and Champa as only using 3-A level attacks to destroy their universes without affecting their space-times, just their matter. But on the other hand, we don't accept the universes in Dragon Ball Super sharing the same space-time as each other, we accept them as being in their own space-time continuums. So that means we would have to choose between 2 options:

Option 1: We accept Beerus and Champa being able to destroy the space-time continuums of Universe 6 and Universe 7 in their entirety instead of just their matter, which would likely result in them being upgraded to 2-C. Which, of course, would greatly affect the scaling of other DBS characters later down the line.

or

Option 2: We continue to accept them only destroying the matter of Universe 6 and Universe 7, but that would mean we would have to accept them being able to destroy the matter of 2 different universes, which as a result would mean the universes in Dragon Ball Super are not separated by their own space-time continuums but share them. This would make the DBS Multiverse share one giant space-time continuum, which would affect Zen'o's 2-C rating and the statistics of other characters.

I know this can get controversal, so if Staff would like to take the lead on this thread at any point and let qualified normal users participate, im completely fine with that. But as things stand, we need to come to a consensus about this, one way or the other.
 
Personally, I say that we just get rid of the discussion rule. It does nothing but causes problems and the aforementioned inconsistencies. Metaphorically, it's a tangled knot that we've wrestling around with and trying to untie, when we should just cut it and move on.

After that, we're free to exam the implications of Beerus' and Champa's 2-C collateral damage in another thread.
 
I still have a question, I kinda lost the answer (if there even was one) because the last thread derailed.

Why is the (combined) feat considered 2-C, if we don't know how the fight would have unraveled, and the destruction of both universes could have been both gone - at the same time- or -one first, the other one after that-?


As for the point made in the OP, Option 2 isn't really viable IMHO, that would be counterintuitive to how the universe is built.


Anyway, what lefts me wondering and dubious is all this "breaching dimensional walls". Because the limits of what can be done and what can't be done are unclear.
 
Agree.

Anyway, continuing the previous discussion about the 2-C stuff, i had already stated by opinion about Option 2 in the previous thread, so i will not repeat myself.

For Option 1 i'm still unsure, but if trully 2-C had to be considered unquantifiable superior to Low 2-C (meaning a Low 2-C cannot jump to 2-C by be 10 times above baseline), then in theory Beerus and Champa should be upgraded to 2-C, regardless of the fact that they were sharing the feat, as this is how it work here.

And is not like Beerus and Champa were focusing their destructive power to destroy their respective universes, instead its their clash with was going to destroy both their universes around the same time.
 
I dont see how Option 2 would be countering anything. The universes in DBS being separated space-times isnt absolute, thats just something we agreed upon on our own terms.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
I dont see how Option 2 would be countering anything. The universes in DBS being separated space-times isnt absolute, thats just something we agreed upon on our own terms.
Click to expand...
No no, I don't said it would be - impossible -, just counterintuitive, or strange, whatever you call it
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
I dont see how Option 2 would be countering anything. The universes in DBS being separated space-times isnt absolute, thats just something we agreed upon on our own terms.
Click to expand...
It isn't absolute yes, but most of our information about the verse's cosmology point on the direction of each universes possess their own separated dimensional space, which is also what most people here agree.

So unless we get new info that would debunk such notion, most evidence we had suggest that the universes do not exist in one single space-time.
 
I think most participants in the discussion can agree that if they are separate spacetimes that Beerus + Champa = 2-C. So the focus should be on what Kukui is questioning, whether or not the universes in Dragon Ball have separate spacetimes.

I think there is no real evidence for Option 2, honestly. I obviously agree with Option 1 but I will wait to see what others have to argue for Option 2 before claiming that Option 1 is correct.
 
Dont get me wrong, im not saying the universes are definitely not separate space-times. Like you said, its something thats currently accepted and I have 0 problem at all with them being separate space-times.

The cosmology isnt the problem, its the feat in particular that I have an issue with, which depending on how we agree about it would affect the cosmology as collaterial damage. Because if we continue to accept that Beerus and Champa were using 3-A attacks to destroy the 2 universes (which is impossible for that to happen if they were indeed seperate space-times), then that means we're accepting that U6 and U7 share the same dimensional space instead of being confined to their own separate space-times.

Making this contradicting.
 
Why is the (combined) feat considered 2-C, if we don't know how the fight would have unraveled, and the destruction of both universes could have been both gone - at the same time- or -one first, the other one after that-?

That requires for you to believe that Beerus and Champa would have left Universe 7 (after destroying it) to destroy Universe 6 (how would they get there? I somehow doubt they would listen to elevator music while Whis and Vados slowly transport them to Universe 6) then after destroying Universe 6 just stop destroying universes and consider their fight 'settled'.

What's more realistic to derive from the claim? That Beerus and Champa were going to destroy Universe 7, go to Universe 6, destroy Universe 6 and then just stop fighting? Or that Beerus and Champa were going to destroy Universe 7 and 6 from their position within Universe 7?

I said it in the last thread. Claiming that Beerus and Champa would destroy one universe after the other is akin to claiming Cell was going to destroy the solar system by blowing up the sun, when he was clearly on Earth and made no mention of the sun.

I believe it is called 'Occam's Razor'. The concept that the 'simplest' solution is usually the correct one. You have to make many claims, many assumptions, with no evidence, to come to the conclusion that Beerus and Champa would destroy Universe 7, then 6 and then just stop. Whereas, simply claiming the feat is 2-C due to them fighting in Universe 7 and threatening both Universe 6 and 7 only requires pointing to what their attendants claimed within the canon.
 
What's the point of making a new thread if you just copy-pasted the exact OP. It's like you ignored all 350 comments of the previous one.

Option 2 is outright rejected and Option 1 doesn't mean Beerus and Champa are going to be 2-C. As Promestein said and most agreed that the discussion rule should just be removed.

Also quoting my last comment with which many people agreed:

Beerus+Champa's combined power can perform a 2-C feat. Any character able to take on their combined powers would be 2-C as well. That's just straightforward logic and basic powerscaling.

That's not to say that Beerus and Champa would be 2-C as well, since they haven't shown any evidence that they can destroy 2 universes on their own, which is the minimum requirement for baseline 2-C.

My suggestion:

Grand Priest = Likely 2-C

Angels = At least Low 2-C, possibly/likely 2-C
 
AKM sama said:
What's the point of making a new thread if you just copy-pasted the exact OP. It's like you ignored all 350 comments of the previous one.
Click to expand...
Because it got massively derailed by the Tier 2 Standard stuff, which needed its own thread for.

And as for the rest, some people are still disagreeing with that. If Beerus and Champa were using Low 2-C level attacks to destroy their universes, then they both need to be 2-C as some people were arguing for.

And thats where it pretty much left off.
 
I'm still agreeing with what Prom said in the previous thread.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Because it got massively derailed by the Tier 2 Standard stuff, which needed its own thread for.
Click to expand...
The points in the OP were answered before the derailment. The derailment happened after the new solution was proposed.
 
Yeah, seems like this topic is basically resolved.

The universes are separate spacetimes so Beerus + Champa (and anyone who scales to their combined power, so 2x Beerus or Champa) = 2-C. Grand Priest is almost definitely 2-C so he should be likely 2-C or straight up 2-C due to the scaling chain. Angels should be Likely 2-C or even definitely 2-C via scaling chain.

Scaling chain from Grand Priest to Beerus:

Grand Priest >> Whis >> Gogeta >> Broly/Goku >/= Beerus

Grand Priest likely stomps Whis, Whis likely stomps Gogeta and Gogeta stomped Broly who, based on what we know, is comparable to Goku and both Broly and Goku have statements of possibly surpassing Beerus. This also doesn't factor in other statements like Vados claiming she was superior to Whis a thousand years ago, meaning there is some sort of scaling chain present with all the Angels but this scaling chain is pretty much a total unknown to us.

I think the only real thing to argue is whether or not Gogeta should get Possibly/Likely 2-C based on this scaling, due to him casually stomping Broly who Goku considers as maybe surpassing Beerus.
 
So, the angels and the Grand Priest should be 2-C, and Zen'o "At least 2-C" then?
 
Broly was stated to likely be stronger than Beerus and withstood several blows from Gogeta, yes.
 
I think Grand Priest should be 2-C due to being vastly more powerful than any other person in the franchise (barring Zeno of course). The Angels could arguably scale to 2-C due to Whis stomping Beerus but I can see Likely 2-C as acceptable for them.

Gogeta should probably be Low 2-C, possibly 2-C at the minimum for casually stomping Broly who is said to surpass Beerus. I think him being Likely 2-C is reasonable for easily stomping someone that is said to possibly surpass Beerus and I haven't seen any arguments that reasonably counter such a claim as of yet.

Zeno...is hard to say. We know he is 2-C for wiping the entire future timeline and for wiping six universes on a whim. He should, by all means, be vastly superior to Grand Priest, if not infinitely, in terms of his raw power. Claiming 'At least 2-C' is probably a fair compromise until we see more of him and GP down the line.
 
Zeno should just be plain 2-C. There is no need for "at least". It's obvious that he is just a higher level of 2-C.

Broly was stated to "probably" be stronger than Beerus. It's safe to say he is comparable to him at the very least and Gogeta Blue did stomp him. But sometimes even less than x2 difference is enough to stomp someone, and it's been very inconsistent throughout DB. So I'm not sure about Gogeta.
 
The issue is that the novel describes just how easily Gogeta dismantled Broly without a hint of effort on his part and intently describes that Broly is in suffering, afraid, etc due to Gogeta's beatdown.

So as I've said before. This isn't full power Gogeta curbstomping a Beerus-level. This is Gogeta toying with a Beerus-level figurine and accidentally breaking it.
 
Have we came to an agreement? If so, we should do the upgrades soon, unless anyone has a counter-argument against it?
 
Out of curiousity, and I apologize if we've covered this, but I'm just making sure.

Say that AKM's propsal goes through, what would that mean for Beerus and the other GoDs? I know that they're not moving up to 2-C but would their level of Low 2-C change? If the output of two GoDs = 2-C, would that make them unfathomably high into Low 2-C?
 
Just a heads up, Matt or Prom don't even agree with anyone by Zeno being 2-C, but they did agree with the Discussion Rule being removed or reworded. I'm fine with either their proposal or AKM Sama's however.
 
Well, if Promestein and Matthew disagree, I don't think that this will go through.
 
@ShadowWarrior1999 "I don't think it makes sense for anyone to be upgraded to 2-C. "

Can you provide a counter-argument?

@Antvasima Perhaps not, but Matt hasn't really provided a reason for why he disagrees with it, and Prom gave this: "Two Low 2-C's destroying two universes in a fight is obvious, nothing should change, "

Which I fail to see how this is obvious in the manner in which we're arguing for.
 
Because the feat is not 2-C.

Beerus and Champa are both in Universe 7 and their fighting takes a long ass time to destroy the room they're in let alone Universes 6 and 7. It would make sense that it would destroy Universe 7 first, since that's the universe they're in and then after shattering U7's dimensional walls, then they would destroy Universe 6.

Destroying one universe at a time is Low 2-C.
 
The feat is depicted as an annihilation of space around them gradually spreading presumably across the universe. So it would be one universe at a time rather than two.

It's considered more consistent to be one here anyway.
 
The concept that this upgrade wouldn't go through because of two people disagreeing is absurd. As Giygas said, they haven't even provided arguments against the upgrade and thus far there is nothing to contradict the claims that have been made for the upgrade.

If two people can stop a logical, fairly argued, upgrade (for the absolute strongest characters of the entire franchise that effects nothing but future scaling) then this wiki stinks of extreme corruption. What was the point of arguing for hundreds of posts, with what, 1-2 dozen people? If two guys who aren't even arguing can just stop it with no reason provided?

Whatever. I have exams this week so it's not like I'll be around to argue against such a ridiculous concept. Hopefully other people will be able to dedicate the time to argue against such absurdity.
 
@ShadowWarrior1999

"Beerus and Champa are both in Universe 7 and their fighting takes a long ass time to destroy the room they're in let alone Universes 6 and 7."

Okay... They weren't even really fighting serious at that point, and if you're really going to try to argue that them taking a long time to destroy that room - Then it would take them quadrillions of years to even destroy the Universe....

"It would make sense that it would destroy Universe 7 first, since that's the universe they're in and then after shattering U7's dimensional walls, then they would destroy Universe 6. "

As Cryo has stated, this is not what Occam's Razor would dictate. Actually provide a reason for why I should believe that they're just going to destroy said Universe, then wally themselves up to go destroy the other Universe, instead of the most simplistic explanation being that they're just going to destroy Universe 6 and 7 from withi the universe they're fighting in when they get serious.
 
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