- 4,604
- 6,575
Alright, we've all been waiting for this for a while. Ever since the 3-A CRT was wrapped up with so many questions and open points left unconcluded, I figured it was a good idea to discuss them in a separate CRT. Now that the main wave of both hype and controversy over the 3-A upgrade has (hopefully) settled, I feel it is a safe time to make this CRT. Also, note that most of this will be covering information that has already been heavily discussed on other threads, so if you already understand what I am referring to with each of the feats you do not need to read all of it. This is far too long as it is, my apologies about that, and I'd hate for most people to have to read all of it. Also, there are speed feats I might want to mention in the future, however this is already long enough so I might discuss them on a separate CRT. Without further ado, let's begin.
The Saviour:
So, currently, the tier of the Saviour is a big topic. It was widely agreed upon in the 3-A CRT that the Saviour would not scale to the other 3-A characters, however a separate feat for the Saviour was very lightly touched upon. I'm sure most of us know what I am talking about right now; the pocket dimensions residing inside the Saviour.
For the people who aren't quite caught up on what I mean, I'm referring to Mission 19 of DMC4, the infamous dice-game boss rush. In it, you climb up the insides of the Saviour statue. While validity over whether or not the level actually happens has been debatable, a quote from the Deadly Fortune novel stating that Nero fought through "hellish recreations" of past bosses while climbing up the Saviour makes it clear that this event did happen, despite the confusing circumstances.
The actual feat here comes in the form of the portals you travel through inside the Saviour. For those of you who are not yet caught up, every time you complete one of the dice games you travel to a recreation of a previous area, where you proceed to fight a boss you faced off against earlier in the game. It's clear that this is not an illusion through the presence of Dagon, a boss only Dante fought and which Nero never even met. While Dagon and Bael (the actual boss Nero fought) are very similar in appearance, there are key signs (such as the demoness ladies being glowing red) that confirm it is Dagon instead of Bael. However, this is impossible regardless if it was taking place inside our own dimension as all of the bosses you fight against (including Dagon, mind you) are all already dead (along with various other reasons why it is not possible, which will be mentioned in a moment). The only possible way this sequence could make sense is if they are, in fact, separate dimensions.
Before moving forward, there is one big elephant in the room here. How do we know that this is even a feat for the Saviour at all? The pocket dimensions may be inside of the Saviour, but how do we know that he created them? Well, there is some surprisingly conclusive evidence. just as you first enter into the staircase room in Mission 19, a message pops up saying "This staircase to heaven or hell, know that we control it, and all will be well."
Admittedly, the statement "heaven or hell" is far too vague to assign a tier to, however the statement makes it abundantly clear that the Saviour is the one in control of the staircase. I would go further into detail, but… let's be honest, we all have common sense here.
On top of all this, we know that they are in fact separate dimensions from the time of day depicted within each of them. When you fight the group of Angelos, it appears to be early sunset. When fighting Berial, it is also sunset, but very close to being nighttime (the sky is mostly black, but if you get to the right angle you can just barely see the sun poking over the horizon). During the Dagon battle, it's midnight (or at least very late at night). During the Echidna battle, it is sometime in the morning (possibly midday?) and during the Agnus fight, it is around the early afternoon. All of this is happening while Dante is currently playing around with the Saviour outside, and it is visibly late afternoon. While Dante is playing around, the Saviour is quite actively attempting to fight him. To argue that all the dimensions are the same and that the Saviour is simply manipulating the time of day in each of them as Nero travels through would require the Saviour to, for whatever reason, actually bother with such a pointless task while also clearly focused on something completely different. Occam's Razor makes it clear that simply stating they are different dimensions, and therefore would have different times of day, is far more likely.
Hoo boy… this is going on longer than I thought it would. Okay, this part is a bit more complicated, but I'll try to rush through it. To figure out the scale of each of the dimensions, we can use the sun and the presence of the horizon line in each dimension to figure out a sense of scale. There is a sun in the sky in all of the dimensions (except for Dagon's, mind you) along with at least a partially visible horizon line in all of them. From this, we can make a few assertions about the scale. All of the dimensions have:
1: A sun (we can assume baseline, since it is clearly based off of the one in the human world)
2: A large celestial body (given the horizon line and comparison to the human world, it could quite potentially be earth-sized but at the very least it would be well over the size of a continent)
3: All of the space in between (given that the sun in the sky is of similar distance away as it is in the human world, the space in between should be accounted for).
With all this in mind, it is safe to say that each of the dimensions are approximately Solar System in size (maybe very slightly below a regular Solar System). Add up all 5 dimensions together, you get about 5 Solar Systems in total and therefore it's an MSS creation feat. In other words, 4-A. Admittedly, there is wiggle room here. Given the large extent of most 4-A feats, this would still at best be an extremely low end 4-A feat. I'm willing to debate that this could actually be a very high end 4-B feat, but until then I believe the most accurate scale for this feat would be 4-A.
Nightmare:
Okay, now that's finally out of the way, lets get onto another major feat that has never been conclusively decided upon, despite the astounding amount of times it has been discussed. The Evil Dimension.
For those of you who don't know what I am talking about, I am referring to the dimension you enter in DMC1 when you attempt to attack Nightmare without switching on the lights first. If you do so, you get sucked inside Nightmare. You enter into a mystic-esque world where you proceed to fight a small group of Sargassos and then a boss. Whichever boss you fight depends on which Nightmare fight you are up to (either Phantom, Griffon, or Nero/Nelo Angelo). It has been assumed for a long time that this dimension was entirely illusory, that is, nothing inside it was real and it was all an illusion created by Nightmare. However, this is mostly a baseless assumption, and recently a lot of evidence has been found to the complete contrary.
First of all, the DMC Enemy Files. We all likely know about this one by this point. I'll bring it up regardless, for those of you in the dark about it. The DMC Enemy Files has a section for Nightmare where it talks about the Evil Dimension (in fact, that section is exactly where the name comes from). In it, it explicitly states that you enter into a separate dimension where malicious spirits rule. The idea that this is an illusory world is likely derived from the fact that it states that the demons within are representative of Dante's past trauma. However, not only does it never state that the dimension itself is representative in any way, but it outright contradicts this line of thinking. It refers to these spirits in a literal way, talking about how they "rule over the dimension". It is clear from the paragraph that it is only the appearance of the demons that is illusory; the dimension itself physically exists.
Of course, what does this mean? Well, as everybody knows by now, dimension creation = AP. We just need to figure out the scale of the dimension. As has been pointed out many times by now, the Evil Dimension appears to at least have a star in it. I unfortunately don't have any scans of it myself (I'm currently on my DMD playthrough of DMC1 so… it's gonna take a while, to say the least), but if you manipulate the camera angle to turn towards the light source (a surprisingly difficult task) you can see what appears to be a sun in the sky. Unlike with the Saviour, it is extremely difficult to tell what size the rest of the landscape is or how close you are to the sun itself, given that the sky is heavily muddled. As such, we can only assume that the sun is the only major mass available within the dimension. So, what does this mean for tiering changes?
Well, this could indicate changing DMC1 Base Dante to a "Possibly 4-C" tier. Let me explain.
The Evil Dimension, as we discussed, has a star in it. There are two major candidates for it's creation; Mundus, or Nightmare. Technically, it is probably more likely to be Nightmare due to the fact that Nightmare directly leads you into the Evil Dimension, however it was Mundus who created Nightmare and quite potentially the Evil Dimension along with him, so we really don't have enough evidence to suggest one side more than the other. In the event that it was Nightmare who created it, it would be a 4-C feat for Base DMC1 Dante since he defeated Nightmare himself, but if it is a feat for Mundus than that really doesn't change anything. To account for both possibilities, a "Possibly 4-C" ranking seems adequate. Thoughts?
True Scale of the Demon World/Related Feats:
This one, single point is practically the main reason I felt this CRT needed to be created. Currently, we have the Argosax feat that the current 3-A rankings are based on, and ParadoxIndifferent has since found a whole bunch of others on this thread (By the way, good job on that thread Paradox!
). The problem I have is that we really haven't done enough to come to a conclusive sense of scale for these feats. We know that the human world is a universe, so in turn any feats that involve affecting the whole human world have had the 3-A tiering applied, though I'd argue that we can go far more in depth with these rankings. Admittedly, I'm certainly not blameless in this. My point is, while I still completely agree with the 3-A rankings that have been given thus far, we desperately need to find a better sense of scale than simply applying "baseline 3-A" to every feat that involves the human world. So, that's what I've done… and I've made some pretty interesting discoveries along the way.
First of all, regarding that previous paragraph, there is a massive elephant in the room that I think we all know needs to be brought up. We already know that the human world is a universe, and so without further context we can only assume it is a baseline universe. But what about the demon world?
The closest thing we've had to a sense of scale for the demon world before now was through the way it was depicted in the beginning of the DMC3 Manga. The demon world was represented by a massive, indeterminately sized void, with the human world being a small ray of light in it's midst. At the very least, we can assume this contrast would mean that the demon world is extremely large in comparison to the human world, and as such any feats that would affect the demon world would be very far beyond baseline 3-A. But we can get more specific than that.
Remember how I mentioned that the demon world was represented in the DMC3 Manga by a massive, dark void? Well, there is in fact an explicit mention of a "dark void" in DMC3 itself that, in context, was almost certainly referring to the demon world. The Astrological Board's description. In the item description it states "An astrological device which displays the endless void." Now… that is quite telling, to say the least. Of course, one single mention of the demon world being an endless void is not much to go off of, but there is far more to say.
In the DMC3 Manga (in the exact same scene I mentioned a moment ago, funnily enough) it makes quite an explicit statement that the "void" we see is the demon world. Specifically, it states "The darkness became the Realm of Demons…". So, "darkness" is used in context to refer to the demon world, a fact that I think we can all reasonably agree upon. On that same page however, it states that it was "unending darkness, a crucible of chaos". Not only is the darkness quite explicitly shown to be the demon world, but we now have multiple statements confirming that the demon world is, in fact, infinite in size. Not only can we say that this information is depicted consistently throughout the series, but there are currently no known statements that disprove, debunk or even remotely contradict this fact. As such, unless any evidence to the contrary is found, it is reasonable under the circumstances to say that the demon world is infinite in size.
As I'm sure many of you know, this would involve multiple previous 3-A feats getting upgraded to High 3-A feats, more specifically the feats directly related to the demon world. These would include feats like Mundus' defeat collapsing the demon world, and Void Mundus being the "nexus of power for the demon world". You might have noticed that, even though it is by far the most notable and prolific feat, I did not mention the merging of the demon and human worlds. Well, there's a good reason…
One topic that almost certainly needs to be addressed is exactly how much separation there is between the human world and the demon world. That… might sound like a vague question, but to be frank I don't have a better way of describing it. Basically, what I mean is that we have all somewhat assumed that the demon world and the human world have been purely separated in physical space. And honestly, I've also made this assumption myself quite a few times, despite the fact that we really haven't had much evidence that this is all that is going on, and that separating through physical space alone could quite easily be a low-ball estimate. So, I've done some digging… and eventually found something quite interesting with the help of the user Sparda 20000000 (thank you for the info, by the way!). In all places to get an answer to this question, the answer was somehow found in the DMC3 Enemy File description for Gigapede.
The description for Gigapede states "Giant creature that made its way into the Human world through a rift in the time-space fabric." If you could take a moment to protect your eyes from my excessive use of bold text, you can see that it explictly states that Gigapede was originally in the demon world, and it was specifically through a "rift in the time-space fabric" that they were able to make it into the human world. On top of that, we even get to see this rift ourselves later in game. In the item description for the Samsara, it states it was "used to restore order to time-space rifts." Not only do we know that there are time-space rifts that connect the human and demon worlds together from Gigapede's description, but judging by context we even see this rift and close it ourselves in Mission 19 (where you get the Samsara and use it). The fact that it is explicitly stated on multiple occasions to be a time-space rift throughout the game, and the fact that this lines up perfectly with what we see and interact with, it can be said conclusively that this is a time-space rift. (New challenge. Take a shot every time I say time-space rift in that paragraph and send a video of yourself collapsing).
What is so important about this feat is how it lines up with the requirements for other, higher tiers. For a feat to be considered Low Multiversal, it must affect 2-1000 separate time-space continuities. And… well, with this new evidence, Argosax's feat does. If Gigapede used a time-space rift in order to travel between the demon world and the human world, then that confirms that they exist in separate time-space continuities. Therefore, the merging of the human and demons worlds (two separate time-space continuities), along with it's vice versa, would in fact be considered a 2-C feat (though admittedly a very, very low end one. Like, literally as low end as you can get.)
So, all in all, the currently accepted 3-A feats, based on both the scale of the demon world and the separation of the human and demon worlds would all, in actuality, fall within the tiers of High 3-A to 2-C. As such, under this analysis of the currently accepted feats, characters who scale based on being equal to or greater power than Argosax, Mundus, or Sparda will be upgraded to 2-C. Otherwise, if this analysis is not accepted, a High 3-A tiering would be applicable instead.
Problems with Bolverk:
Note: For this section, I will be referring to the God Tier characters by their currently accepted rankings, 3-A. In the event that the prior analysis is accepted, then the tiers mentioned can be interchanged with either High 3-A or 2-C.
So, Bolverk. Side villain from DMC2, quite forgettable. He was apparently supposed to be a rival figure for Dante in DMC2, similar to Nero/Nelo Angelo in DMC1. And I'm sure we can all figure out how well that worked out… either way, I digress.
He is currently listed as being "Possibly 3-A" based off of his feat of surviving a fight with Sparda with a wounded eye. Surviving an attack from a 3-A character in such a way seems reasonable for a 3-A tiering. So, why do I have a problem with his "Possibly 3-A" tiering? Well, it's because of another character in the series. One who is not considered to have this same ranking, despite the fact that their backstory is nearly identical.
I am, of course, referring to Beowulf. Their backstories (and by proxy, feats) are literally nearly identical. Both of them survived a battle with Sparda, ending up with a damaged eye in the process. The problem here is that several DMC3 characters (most directly DMC3 Dante and Vergil) directly scale to Beowulf due to being comparable in strength. Given the practical identicality of their feats, they honestly should be considered the same tier; "Possibly 3-A". From this though, this would mean applying a "Possibly 3-A" tier to the likes of DMC3 Dante, Vergil, and Arkham. This… is questionable, to say the least. Let's be honest, we all have common sense. And while many of us may have criticised the outlier argument on the prior 3-A DMC thread, honestly, it completely applies here. Unlike Dante when he reached God Tier status, he actually had genuine feats and depicted limits in his DMC3 key, which is where his current tiers come from. Stating that he would even be possibly 3-A is an absolutely massive outlier. So, with this in mind, I have two possible solutions:
1: We give all of the characters who scale to Beowulf a "Possibly 3-A" tiering. As I've made clear, I'm not exactly in favour of this solution. However, admittedly, if there are still reasonable points made to defend it I am willing to relent on my argument. This would affect DMC3 Dante, DMC3 Vergil, Arkham, DMC1 Base Dante and DMC:AS Dante (to my knowledge).
2: We remove Bolverk's "Possibly 3-A" tiering. While I am definitely more in defence of this option, admittedly I'm not sure how exactly he could be downgraded. The reason he only has that tiering, with no definitive tiering given is presumably because he genuinely has no other feats. I believe there are other characters in DMC2 that he could be considered comparable to under the circumstances, but this is definitely a topic for debate.
So, that about wraps up all the loose ends when it comes to Devil May Cry tiering! I waited on making this CRT for a while, due to how we've all been exhausted of debating the 3-A thread thus far and hitting us again with a heavily debatable thread so suddenly would just… be cruel. My point is, there were a lot of things that were brought up in the original 3-A thread that were mostly swept under the rug so that we wouldn't lose track. I've taken the time to write up this thread to address what hasn't yet been concluded due to those decisions. Hopefully this discussion will not be quite as tiring to debate. Hope you all have a great day!
The Saviour:
So, currently, the tier of the Saviour is a big topic. It was widely agreed upon in the 3-A CRT that the Saviour would not scale to the other 3-A characters, however a separate feat for the Saviour was very lightly touched upon. I'm sure most of us know what I am talking about right now; the pocket dimensions residing inside the Saviour.
For the people who aren't quite caught up on what I mean, I'm referring to Mission 19 of DMC4, the infamous dice-game boss rush. In it, you climb up the insides of the Saviour statue. While validity over whether or not the level actually happens has been debatable, a quote from the Deadly Fortune novel stating that Nero fought through "hellish recreations" of past bosses while climbing up the Saviour makes it clear that this event did happen, despite the confusing circumstances.
The actual feat here comes in the form of the portals you travel through inside the Saviour. For those of you who are not yet caught up, every time you complete one of the dice games you travel to a recreation of a previous area, where you proceed to fight a boss you faced off against earlier in the game. It's clear that this is not an illusion through the presence of Dagon, a boss only Dante fought and which Nero never even met. While Dagon and Bael (the actual boss Nero fought) are very similar in appearance, there are key signs (such as the demoness ladies being glowing red) that confirm it is Dagon instead of Bael. However, this is impossible regardless if it was taking place inside our own dimension as all of the bosses you fight against (including Dagon, mind you) are all already dead (along with various other reasons why it is not possible, which will be mentioned in a moment). The only possible way this sequence could make sense is if they are, in fact, separate dimensions.
Before moving forward, there is one big elephant in the room here. How do we know that this is even a feat for the Saviour at all? The pocket dimensions may be inside of the Saviour, but how do we know that he created them? Well, there is some surprisingly conclusive evidence. just as you first enter into the staircase room in Mission 19, a message pops up saying "This staircase to heaven or hell, know that we control it, and all will be well."
Admittedly, the statement "heaven or hell" is far too vague to assign a tier to, however the statement makes it abundantly clear that the Saviour is the one in control of the staircase. I would go further into detail, but… let's be honest, we all have common sense here.
On top of all this, we know that they are in fact separate dimensions from the time of day depicted within each of them. When you fight the group of Angelos, it appears to be early sunset. When fighting Berial, it is also sunset, but very close to being nighttime (the sky is mostly black, but if you get to the right angle you can just barely see the sun poking over the horizon). During the Dagon battle, it's midnight (or at least very late at night). During the Echidna battle, it is sometime in the morning (possibly midday?) and during the Agnus fight, it is around the early afternoon. All of this is happening while Dante is currently playing around with the Saviour outside, and it is visibly late afternoon. While Dante is playing around, the Saviour is quite actively attempting to fight him. To argue that all the dimensions are the same and that the Saviour is simply manipulating the time of day in each of them as Nero travels through would require the Saviour to, for whatever reason, actually bother with such a pointless task while also clearly focused on something completely different. Occam's Razor makes it clear that simply stating they are different dimensions, and therefore would have different times of day, is far more likely.
Hoo boy… this is going on longer than I thought it would. Okay, this part is a bit more complicated, but I'll try to rush through it. To figure out the scale of each of the dimensions, we can use the sun and the presence of the horizon line in each dimension to figure out a sense of scale. There is a sun in the sky in all of the dimensions (except for Dagon's, mind you) along with at least a partially visible horizon line in all of them. From this, we can make a few assertions about the scale. All of the dimensions have:
1: A sun (we can assume baseline, since it is clearly based off of the one in the human world)
2: A large celestial body (given the horizon line and comparison to the human world, it could quite potentially be earth-sized but at the very least it would be well over the size of a continent)
3: All of the space in between (given that the sun in the sky is of similar distance away as it is in the human world, the space in between should be accounted for).
With all this in mind, it is safe to say that each of the dimensions are approximately Solar System in size (maybe very slightly below a regular Solar System). Add up all 5 dimensions together, you get about 5 Solar Systems in total and therefore it's an MSS creation feat. In other words, 4-A. Admittedly, there is wiggle room here. Given the large extent of most 4-A feats, this would still at best be an extremely low end 4-A feat. I'm willing to debate that this could actually be a very high end 4-B feat, but until then I believe the most accurate scale for this feat would be 4-A.
Nightmare:
Okay, now that's finally out of the way, lets get onto another major feat that has never been conclusively decided upon, despite the astounding amount of times it has been discussed. The Evil Dimension.
For those of you who don't know what I am talking about, I am referring to the dimension you enter in DMC1 when you attempt to attack Nightmare without switching on the lights first. If you do so, you get sucked inside Nightmare. You enter into a mystic-esque world where you proceed to fight a small group of Sargassos and then a boss. Whichever boss you fight depends on which Nightmare fight you are up to (either Phantom, Griffon, or Nero/Nelo Angelo). It has been assumed for a long time that this dimension was entirely illusory, that is, nothing inside it was real and it was all an illusion created by Nightmare. However, this is mostly a baseless assumption, and recently a lot of evidence has been found to the complete contrary.
First of all, the DMC Enemy Files. We all likely know about this one by this point. I'll bring it up regardless, for those of you in the dark about it. The DMC Enemy Files has a section for Nightmare where it talks about the Evil Dimension (in fact, that section is exactly where the name comes from). In it, it explicitly states that you enter into a separate dimension where malicious spirits rule. The idea that this is an illusory world is likely derived from the fact that it states that the demons within are representative of Dante's past trauma. However, not only does it never state that the dimension itself is representative in any way, but it outright contradicts this line of thinking. It refers to these spirits in a literal way, talking about how they "rule over the dimension". It is clear from the paragraph that it is only the appearance of the demons that is illusory; the dimension itself physically exists.
Of course, what does this mean? Well, as everybody knows by now, dimension creation = AP. We just need to figure out the scale of the dimension. As has been pointed out many times by now, the Evil Dimension appears to at least have a star in it. I unfortunately don't have any scans of it myself (I'm currently on my DMD playthrough of DMC1 so… it's gonna take a while, to say the least), but if you manipulate the camera angle to turn towards the light source (a surprisingly difficult task) you can see what appears to be a sun in the sky. Unlike with the Saviour, it is extremely difficult to tell what size the rest of the landscape is or how close you are to the sun itself, given that the sky is heavily muddled. As such, we can only assume that the sun is the only major mass available within the dimension. So, what does this mean for tiering changes?
Well, this could indicate changing DMC1 Base Dante to a "Possibly 4-C" tier. Let me explain.
The Evil Dimension, as we discussed, has a star in it. There are two major candidates for it's creation; Mundus, or Nightmare. Technically, it is probably more likely to be Nightmare due to the fact that Nightmare directly leads you into the Evil Dimension, however it was Mundus who created Nightmare and quite potentially the Evil Dimension along with him, so we really don't have enough evidence to suggest one side more than the other. In the event that it was Nightmare who created it, it would be a 4-C feat for Base DMC1 Dante since he defeated Nightmare himself, but if it is a feat for Mundus than that really doesn't change anything. To account for both possibilities, a "Possibly 4-C" ranking seems adequate. Thoughts?
True Scale of the Demon World/Related Feats:
This one, single point is practically the main reason I felt this CRT needed to be created. Currently, we have the Argosax feat that the current 3-A rankings are based on, and ParadoxIndifferent has since found a whole bunch of others on this thread (By the way, good job on that thread Paradox!
). The problem I have is that we really haven't done enough to come to a conclusive sense of scale for these feats. We know that the human world is a universe, so in turn any feats that involve affecting the whole human world have had the 3-A tiering applied, though I'd argue that we can go far more in depth with these rankings. Admittedly, I'm certainly not blameless in this. My point is, while I still completely agree with the 3-A rankings that have been given thus far, we desperately need to find a better sense of scale than simply applying "baseline 3-A" to every feat that involves the human world. So, that's what I've done… and I've made some pretty interesting discoveries along the way.First of all, regarding that previous paragraph, there is a massive elephant in the room that I think we all know needs to be brought up. We already know that the human world is a universe, and so without further context we can only assume it is a baseline universe. But what about the demon world?
The closest thing we've had to a sense of scale for the demon world before now was through the way it was depicted in the beginning of the DMC3 Manga. The demon world was represented by a massive, indeterminately sized void, with the human world being a small ray of light in it's midst. At the very least, we can assume this contrast would mean that the demon world is extremely large in comparison to the human world, and as such any feats that would affect the demon world would be very far beyond baseline 3-A. But we can get more specific than that.
Remember how I mentioned that the demon world was represented in the DMC3 Manga by a massive, dark void? Well, there is in fact an explicit mention of a "dark void" in DMC3 itself that, in context, was almost certainly referring to the demon world. The Astrological Board's description. In the item description it states "An astrological device which displays the endless void." Now… that is quite telling, to say the least. Of course, one single mention of the demon world being an endless void is not much to go off of, but there is far more to say.
In the DMC3 Manga (in the exact same scene I mentioned a moment ago, funnily enough) it makes quite an explicit statement that the "void" we see is the demon world. Specifically, it states "The darkness became the Realm of Demons…". So, "darkness" is used in context to refer to the demon world, a fact that I think we can all reasonably agree upon. On that same page however, it states that it was "unending darkness, a crucible of chaos". Not only is the darkness quite explicitly shown to be the demon world, but we now have multiple statements confirming that the demon world is, in fact, infinite in size. Not only can we say that this information is depicted consistently throughout the series, but there are currently no known statements that disprove, debunk or even remotely contradict this fact. As such, unless any evidence to the contrary is found, it is reasonable under the circumstances to say that the demon world is infinite in size.
As I'm sure many of you know, this would involve multiple previous 3-A feats getting upgraded to High 3-A feats, more specifically the feats directly related to the demon world. These would include feats like Mundus' defeat collapsing the demon world, and Void Mundus being the "nexus of power for the demon world". You might have noticed that, even though it is by far the most notable and prolific feat, I did not mention the merging of the demon and human worlds. Well, there's a good reason…
One topic that almost certainly needs to be addressed is exactly how much separation there is between the human world and the demon world. That… might sound like a vague question, but to be frank I don't have a better way of describing it. Basically, what I mean is that we have all somewhat assumed that the demon world and the human world have been purely separated in physical space. And honestly, I've also made this assumption myself quite a few times, despite the fact that we really haven't had much evidence that this is all that is going on, and that separating through physical space alone could quite easily be a low-ball estimate. So, I've done some digging… and eventually found something quite interesting with the help of the user Sparda 20000000 (thank you for the info, by the way!
). In all places to get an answer to this question, the answer was somehow found in the DMC3 Enemy File description for Gigapede.The description for Gigapede states "Giant creature that made its way into the Human world through a rift in the time-space fabric." If you could take a moment to protect your eyes from my excessive use of bold text, you can see that it explictly states that Gigapede was originally in the demon world, and it was specifically through a "rift in the time-space fabric" that they were able to make it into the human world. On top of that, we even get to see this rift ourselves later in game. In the item description for the Samsara, it states it was "used to restore order to time-space rifts." Not only do we know that there are time-space rifts that connect the human and demon worlds together from Gigapede's description, but judging by context we even see this rift and close it ourselves in Mission 19 (where you get the Samsara and use it). The fact that it is explicitly stated on multiple occasions to be a time-space rift throughout the game, and the fact that this lines up perfectly with what we see and interact with, it can be said conclusively that this is a time-space rift. (New challenge. Take a shot every time I say time-space rift in that paragraph and send a video of yourself collapsing).
What is so important about this feat is how it lines up with the requirements for other, higher tiers. For a feat to be considered Low Multiversal, it must affect 2-1000 separate time-space continuities. And… well, with this new evidence, Argosax's feat does. If Gigapede used a time-space rift in order to travel between the demon world and the human world, then that confirms that they exist in separate time-space continuities. Therefore, the merging of the human and demons worlds (two separate time-space continuities), along with it's vice versa, would in fact be considered a 2-C feat (though admittedly a very, very low end one. Like, literally as low end as you can get.)
So, all in all, the currently accepted 3-A feats, based on both the scale of the demon world and the separation of the human and demon worlds would all, in actuality, fall within the tiers of High 3-A to 2-C. As such, under this analysis of the currently accepted feats, characters who scale based on being equal to or greater power than Argosax, Mundus, or Sparda will be upgraded to 2-C. Otherwise, if this analysis is not accepted, a High 3-A tiering would be applicable instead.
Problems with Bolverk:
Note: For this section, I will be referring to the God Tier characters by their currently accepted rankings, 3-A. In the event that the prior analysis is accepted, then the tiers mentioned can be interchanged with either High 3-A or 2-C.
So, Bolverk. Side villain from DMC2, quite forgettable. He was apparently supposed to be a rival figure for Dante in DMC2, similar to Nero/Nelo Angelo in DMC1. And I'm sure we can all figure out how well that worked out… either way, I digress.
He is currently listed as being "Possibly 3-A" based off of his feat of surviving a fight with Sparda with a wounded eye. Surviving an attack from a 3-A character in such a way seems reasonable for a 3-A tiering. So, why do I have a problem with his "Possibly 3-A" tiering? Well, it's because of another character in the series. One who is not considered to have this same ranking, despite the fact that their backstory is nearly identical.
I am, of course, referring to Beowulf. Their backstories (and by proxy, feats) are literally nearly identical. Both of them survived a battle with Sparda, ending up with a damaged eye in the process. The problem here is that several DMC3 characters (most directly DMC3 Dante and Vergil) directly scale to Beowulf due to being comparable in strength. Given the practical identicality of their feats, they honestly should be considered the same tier; "Possibly 3-A". From this though, this would mean applying a "Possibly 3-A" tier to the likes of DMC3 Dante, Vergil, and Arkham. This… is questionable, to say the least. Let's be honest, we all have common sense. And while many of us may have criticised the outlier argument on the prior 3-A DMC thread, honestly, it completely applies here. Unlike Dante when he reached God Tier status, he actually had genuine feats and depicted limits in his DMC3 key, which is where his current tiers come from. Stating that he would even be possibly 3-A is an absolutely massive outlier. So, with this in mind, I have two possible solutions:
1: We give all of the characters who scale to Beowulf a "Possibly 3-A" tiering. As I've made clear, I'm not exactly in favour of this solution. However, admittedly, if there are still reasonable points made to defend it I am willing to relent on my argument. This would affect DMC3 Dante, DMC3 Vergil, Arkham, DMC1 Base Dante and DMC:AS Dante (to my knowledge).
2: We remove Bolverk's "Possibly 3-A" tiering. While I am definitely more in defence of this option, admittedly I'm not sure how exactly he could be downgraded. The reason he only has that tiering, with no definitive tiering given is presumably because he genuinely has no other feats. I believe there are other characters in DMC2 that he could be considered comparable to under the circumstances, but this is definitely a topic for debate.
So, that about wraps up all the loose ends when it comes to Devil May Cry tiering! I waited on making this CRT for a while, due to how we've all been exhausted of debating the 3-A thread thus far and hitting us again with a heavily debatable thread so suddenly would just… be cruel. My point is, there were a lot of things that were brought up in the original 3-A thread that were mostly swept under the rug so that we wouldn't lose track. I've taken the time to write up this thread to address what hasn't yet been concluded due to those decisions. Hopefully this discussion will not be quite as tiring to debate. Hope you all have a great day!
