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Undertale speed revision

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Alright. Its time to wrap the low tiers up. After playing through the game a couple times, these are all the speed feats ive found noteable for undertale.

  • Sans breaks a stick
At the beginning of the game, sans is able to teleport onto a stick (or do some wierd spatial stuff) and immediately teleport away remaining completely invisible here.

-Scales to sans reaction speed

-Someone needs to find a way to calc or time this from the moment the stick snapped, to the moment the spot where sans would have been visible is uncovered

  • Undynes spear throw
Here Undyne throws her spear at frisk. As discussed on the last thread, the athletic throwing speed is 90 mph, which is a pretty fair speed to give this spear considering undynes athletic and superhuman nature.

In addition we have spear throws Here and Here that frisk is able to dodge (which as discussed should move at a similar speed as well)

-Scales to a mid determination frisk, undyne and those around their level in attack

-Calc needs to be made on frisk dodging that spear travelling at 90mph (Idk how speed calcs work okay?)

  • Catching a bomb and defusing it
Here frisk is able to catch this bomb and the defuse it. Im not sure how impressive this actually is. The jetpack one if accepted may be more impressive. But either way-

-Scales to a minimally determined frisks reaction
 
I bet I could tackle this stuff if I had time

But at a glance, supersonic scaling to the barks and singing and such seems good
 
We did reject tsunderplanes lightning due to not functioning like lightning, coming from a fake source and being blatantly magic. The sound falls under the last one. But then again, lightning and sound are kind of seperate. So i think it is up for discussion.
 
Magic can still mimick physical effects so it should at least be a possibility
 
I have absolutely no problems with Sans having quick reactions (and maybe combat speed, at least when it comes to dodging, since he doesn't use melee attacks)—in fact, I support that. If you watch the genocide fight frame by frame, he can do teleport shenanigans in the span of three black frames at 30 fps (05:44:96—05:45:08 being one example), which means he can teleport+set up attack patterns within a time span of only 0.12 seconds. I just have a problem with assuming he's FTE in movement speed from feats that are easily explained by teleportation, especially since we have evidence that he can teleport stuff and perform other magical actions within a fraction of a second.

I have a problem with the spear throw, namely that she doesn't throw the spear, since the one she's actually holding is still in her hand. That means the one in the video you linked is still a magically cast attack, so the actual speed is unfortunately unknown.

As for the glass feat... quick and dirty calc has the cup moving roughly 8.3 meters (assuming Frisk is 152.4 cm tall) between 03:11:02―03:11:65 (0.63 seconds). 8.3 m/0.63 s = 13.1746032 m/s, SuperHuman. So Frisk would possibly need low superhuman attack speed to hit it (we'll assume they only hit it once, because the player doesn't need to have the glove equiped at this point).

Singing and barks are iffy, because they don't necessarily behave like sound waves would (especially the singing). Again, I have almost no confidence in the validity of the battle board by this point, so I'm gonna be hard to convince that themed magical attacks are anything but that.
 
"Because she doesn't throw them"


She was to kill frisk, why would she use slower spears if (according to your logic) throwing them would be faster?
 
AidenBrooks999 said:
"Because she doesn't throw them"

She was to kill frisk, why would she use slower spears if (according to your logic) throwing them would be faster?
Click to expand...
I dunno, I don't have to know that either. It doesn't change the fact that the only time we actually see Undyne undeniably throw a spear, it's too fast for Frisk to react to. And we know that Undyne can magically cast spears at people with telekinesis, so it's not like I'm making shit up either.

What Cinnabar says is correct. We can assume the speed of her thrown spears to be similar to those thrown by athletes in real life, but her TK cast ones don't correspond to anything in real life, so scaling their speed is difficult (and this applies to magical attacks in general). I agree that it wouldn't make sense for Undyne to use attacks that were slower than what she could accomplish by throwing them... but it wouldn't be the first time stupid illogical shit happened in video games.

I wanna bring up Mad Dummy real quick. He throws a knife at Frisk, which could possibly be scaled for speed... if Mad Dummy had arms. Unfortunately, she doesn't, so that means the knife was thrown with TK, and has the same issues as the TK spears do.
 
The magic spears being spawned are the ones which have their own in game sprites and make the same noise as the ones thrown across the bridge. It is pretty clear undyne was throwing that one.

Also it is a minimally determined frisk who couldn't react to the spear.

That is the reason I didn't include mad dummy

I'll look at everything else later. My bed calls.
 
We still don't see her throw it, so it's still not confirmable, and really comes down to your interpretation. I think that makes it doubtable enough.

Minimally determined or not, it's a feat where Frisk can't react to the only confirmed case of Undyne actually throwing a spear. And Frisk can react to the magically TKed spears (that don't act like normal spears when they hit you anyways, are we counting that as game mechanics or something?), which is evidence that the magically cast ones are different somehow. IS it good evidence? Not really, but it's better than "I believe this magical attack on the bullet board was actually thrown by Undyne" even though the other example of a "thrown" physical attack in Undertale, Mad Dummy's knife, actually comes from Mad Dummy. Why the inconsistency? Are you telling me Toby Fox just didn't want to make the few extra sprites for an Undyne throwing animation? Or at least have the projectile being "thrown" actually come from Undyne's sprite, like Mad Dummy rather than the left side of the screen? Hell, even Mad Mew Mew's special magical attacks come from her actual wand sprite.

Sorry, I just think the feat in question is too unreliable.
 
Okay, bout to pass out but got time for this last one

Frisk being unable to react to that confirmed case doesnt contradict anything if he is minimally determined. Plus it isnt even a case of him not reacting. He just stopped when the spear was thrown after moving normally. This could happen with almost any character in a casual scenario like this

As for the spears themselves.

1. The spear in that scene is the only spear based attack which has that unique sprite and doesnt make the magical spawn noise.

2. Mad mew mew isnt a very good example considering she is was made two years later and showds different game mechanics as a result (e.g. saying no damage instead of miss)

3. The spear in question was way too small to be animated to have undyne throw it.

4. It did get thrown from the offscreen and on top of that, is fired individually unlike the magical spears she throws, which in some way, function as groups. And on top of that, the only other spear which is thrown in this manner is the confirmed instance of her throwing it.

This spear was clearly programmed to function different from any other spear being thrown, and has way more implying that it was being thrown than their is for it being magically spawned.
 
1. Only proves that it uses a different sprite. You still don't have any evidence that it's actually thrown.

2. But it shows that Toby Fox is willing to make attacks come from the actual monster sprites. There's also still Mad Dummy, which is from the original release, which also launches an attack from the actual character sprite.

3. Pointless argument that doesn't help you, especially since the Mad Dummy knife is to scale for Mad Dummy. That just means the spear is for some reason smaller than a regular knife, or the knife is larger than a spear. If Fox had wanted to have Undyne throw a spear in the game as an attack, he could have easily done so without it being impossible to dodge or having to change the scale of the spear.

4. It attacks from the left, which isn't even where Undyne is depicted as standing. Once again, Mad Dummy's knife comes from Mad Dummy. Why the discrepancy? Why should we trust it when it's so very different from the other example of an attack coming directly from a character rather than being magically manifested onto the bullet board?

Read, your best argument is "it's different from the other attacks." Even you must realize that's not a good argument, and certainly doesn't prove the spear was thrown, especially since she's still depicted as holding the spear. It would be another matter if the spear was edited out of her sprite for that attack (which would be easy to do), then I might be willing to believe that it was intended to imply that she had thrown it... but they didn't even do that much, man.

Face it, your argument rests entirely on weak ground. You can't prove she actually threw that spear.
 
And also Aiden brings up a good point, there's no reason for Undyne to use TK spears if she can just throw them at a much faster speed.

Undyne's thrown spear in the "date" appearing to be faster than the ones she uses to attack, is likely just because one of them is for a comedic moment supposed to take you by surprise while the other is a gameplay sequence that you actually have to play through.

I do not think this is a legitimate indication of her throwing speed being greater than her TK speed, especially when treating it as such implies that Undyne was exclusively using her slower attacks to capture an important target.
 
We cannot exactly take Mettaton's electricity as legit when it has the same problems as Vulkin's lightning, which caused the downgrade in the first place.
 
Andytrenom said:
We cannot exactly take Mettaton's electricity as legit when it has the same problems as Vulkin's lightning, which caused the downgrade in the first place.
Click to expand...
True. And same applies to "sound" based magic attacks.

So only the javelin throwing speed can be taken as a reference.

Or worse, a knife throwing reference assuming they travel at the speed of world's fastest time to throw 3 knives in 1 second (which Screwattack assume at a distance of 17 feet and hence clocking at 15.5448 m/s or ~35 mph)...
 
^This. The magical attacks shown on the battle board have generally been determined to not be literal representations. That's why lightning/electricity dodging has been rejected. To allow "sound" themed attacks (which look and act like the real sound just as much Vulkin's lightning does real lightning) when we rejected the lightning would be a double standard.

I would be more inclined to agree with the knife throw than the spear, since it isn't even clear that Undyne threw the spear for the reasons above, and because the knife throw speed would be consistent with the 13.1746032 m/s rough calc I did above on Frisk tagging the "extremely agile glass of water".
 
^ what I mean. So what can actually be taken as speed feats are really how objects are thrown at Frisk: with a sword swing at 20 m/s, with a knife throw at 15.5448 m/s, or a reaction speed from the glass feat 13.1746032 m/s.
 
It would have to be attack speed, actually. Frisk manages to punch it as it goes by (we'll assume only one punch since their weapon of choice is dependent on the player, and most of the weapons only hit once), so Frisk's attack speed has to be comparable to 13+ m/s, which is really more like low end peak human punching speed but that's not how we rate speed so w/e.
 
1. So knifes thrown by telekinesis scale to real life thrown knifes but Undyne's spears do not?

2. So we rejected Undyne speed feat or running to Papyrus' house? Or what?
 
1. At least the knife is clearly supposed to be a real knife being thrown by somebody, instead of being a tiny spearlike object that doesn't even come from the same direction as the character supposedly throwing it.

2. Yes, on account of it being a joke specifically about how her getting there so fast is absurd (even Papyrus, who should be comparable to Undyne, is confused as to how she got there so fast). And also on account of it being dependent on the player actually calling Papyrus on the same screen as Undyne's house after she leaves, which they can literally do at any time after that point in the game.
 
1. First of all, is not like Frisk dodged any of Undyne's spears outside of game, at all. Second, are we using the board for speed? Cause I thought the other thread have some problems with it, due to how many objects have basically the same speed

2. Not because he is her "equal" that means he runs as fast
 
1. I don't personally support using the bullet board, but the knife "throw" is far better than most of the rest of the "feats" seen on the battleboard (which isn't saying much to be honest). It wouldn't really put Frisk much higher than the 13 m/s combat speed feat I quickly calced above, where Frisk has to hit about that fast to tag a really agile glass of water (regardless of what happens on the bullet board).

2. I'm sorry, what?
 
1. Yeah, but again. You are completely ignoring the context of the fight with Undyne. As I said a lot times already, Why would Undyne use slower spears against an important target? Your only justification is "she doesn't throw them" as if we didn't knew already. The point stills, there's no reason to assume that the TK is slower than throwing, but context at least backs-up the fact that shoulf be faster than throwing


2. Because you brought up Papyrus being Undyne's equal, which doesn't mean they are equals on running speed
 
Are you kidding me? There is a freaking time limit on comments as well as message walls?

Well, thats three hours of my day, gathering notes and responding to multiple threads gone completely to waste!

sigh
 
So, yeah. Singing and barking blatantly don't scale to actual sound, since they don't act like sound, and frisk can actually hear the barks and the singing despite dodging the magical attacks.

Undyne's soears also blatantly move slower than the one she threw at Frisk at her home. Or the ones that pop up from the ground, for the matter. The ones she uses to slice off the bridge seem similiar in soeed, but meh. It could always actually be calced how fast they are, but I doubt it's worthwhile.

I don't lean either way on the Undyne and Papyrus stuff, but you get obvious scaling problems if Undyne is suddenly much faster than Papyrus.
 
1. Agreed.


2. @Andytrenom already said why they looked different in speed.


3. I meant just in running speed guys... I mean, almost every single monsters is clearly equal in speed (They all fight the sane individual. Apart from the 2-B characters, the only exception is Sans, and even then only his reactions seems to be better, but he attacks just as fast)
 
Problem with that is that Papyrus found it difficult to believe as well. So, if they all run at the same speed...


That, and there is no way you can say froggit is all that equal to undyne.
 
I missed the part they all ran a marathon at equal speed (obvious sarcasm)


Idk, ask Frisk. They get hit by different objects that from their perspective are basically equal in speed. (Also... You say that even though basically all characters are 9-A now)
 
AidenBrooks999 said:
I missed the part they all ran a marathon at equal speed (obvious sarcasm)


Idk, ask Frisk. They get hit by different objects that from their perspective are basically equal in speed. (Also... You say that even though basically all characters are 9-A now)
Click to expand...
Wait - are Chara, Flowey and Frisk 9-A and knife throwing / glass moving speed as well?
 
Dunno about Chara since they don't have their own body, but for Flowey and Frisk? Yeah, when not in their tier 2 keys.
 
Thar isn't the best of reasons Aiden. Them all being in the same tier hardly means anything as far as speed gies, and you say that as if they all are nearly equal in power because of their rating. Asgore was running circles around Undyne when she was a kid, and she was undoubtedly 9-A at that point according to our ratings.


Also, wasn't there something about Frisk vecoming stronger with determination, which was why they weren't blitzed by Asriel and Omega Flowey (Technically the two are the same, but whatever)? I mean, I don't much like the idea of rating Frisk tier 2 because of the whole 1 HP damage, but if we are doing that, than same logic can be applied and we can say that Frisk just became faster because determination.

Plus, again, I much doubt Undyne, even as a kid, was slower than Froggit and yet she couldn't even get close to hitting Asgore. Asgore, who seems equally fast to the afromentioned Froggit. So I think it's fair to say that you either can go with determination giving Frisk sspeed, or you call the good ol' game mechanics since Toby didn't bother to differentiate monsters in speed. Regardless, Undyne's story makes it clear that not all monsters are quiet scalable.
 
Hmm.... That's... Irrelevant.


The discussion it's about the speed we are going to use for the characters. I believe Subsonic for Undyne makes sense. If you want to scale Froggit to other feats like the glass and jetpack ones, that's fine, but if Undyne is far superior, scaling could support Subsonic from her spears
 
Also, all monsters being equal in attack speed could be because, since Frisk's determination varies between fight and fight, for them all the attacks looks the same, since they become as fast the opponent
 
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