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Before The Nightmare and Devil May Cry Canon

Dienomite22

Dienomite22

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As many of us know by now DMC has another novel that has been released and it is prequal to DMC5 which is called Before The Nightmare.This novel is without a doubt canon considering that Itsuno,the producers, and writer changed the entire Devil May Cry timeline from 31425 to 31245 because that's the timeline this novel has.But I didn't create this thread to discuss the canonicity of this novel, I'm making it to discuss what this novel means to the overall canon of DMC as a whole but in order for this discussion to go smoothly and not get side tracked I need people who are familiar with the Devil May Cry games,story,novels and CD Drama 1 to be the main participants for obvious reasons.

Links to relevent material:

Before The Nightmare summary: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sehBInbkahYDqQ3NzV3nyHPKljIdLysp/view

Devil May Cry Volume 1,2 fully translated: https://originaldmc.github.io/DivinityStatue/Downloads.html

CD Drama 1 summary: https://www.reddit.com/r/DevilMayCr...h_summary_of_devil_may_cry_audio_drama_vol_1/

These material are important to the discussion so it is best to read them.

I originally was going to put my opinion regarding the this topic in the op but I decided against it to not be accused of having a biased viewed and because my first attempt was deleted instantly so I didn't want to waste time on the second were it not to work but nevermind that, What do you considered canon in the Devil May Cry verse?

Reminder this discussion is important because it will get everyone on the same frame of mind for future threads regarding DMC and it will prevent said future threads from being derailed into "what is and what isn't canon" conversations.
 
Interesting, can you also link the dmc2 novel where dante fought void mundus?.
 
The second link leads to both 1 and 2 novels.The novel has pretty nice feats, the world shaking just from the beastheads getting a host and space-time shennanigans
 
Dienomite22 said:
The second link leads to both 1 and 2 novels.The novel has pretty nice feats, the world shaking just from the beastheads getting a host and space-time shennanigans
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There is actually a feat in the novels that I think is pretty... curious? evidence for a tier upgrade. In the DMC2 novel, Mundus is described as the "sole ruler of creation for timeless eternity". Given that creation feats are typically used for tiering on this wiki, this could indicate a tier massively beyond High 6-A. I do have an absolutely massive revision thread in mind that I believe could be really solid evidence for a tier upgrade, but I'm waiting until at least after DMC5 comes out to see if any new information supports/debunks my points.

EDIT: To make the quote easier to find if you want to look through the novel for it, the full paragraph states "Attacking Mundus in his own keep had been a masterstroke. The creature could scarcely comprehend the assault. His supremacy was supposed to be absolute; the sole ruler of creation for timeless eternity. Yet here was an arrogant trespasser-human no less-who had power equal to his own."
 
Regardless of feats, what are your opinions on the canon of Devil May Cry?
 
Dienomite22 said:
Regardless of feats, what are your opinions on the canon of Devil May Cry?
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On a previous DMC revision thread, I expressed that I genuinely think all of the DMC novels are canon (although admittedly I don't know too much about Deadly Fortune, I'll have to research it more heavily before making a conclusion). Almost certain Before The Nightmare is. I'm pretty sure they are trying to meld the canonicity of the DMC1 novel and DMC3 together at this point. I really, really want SMT to be canon, and I do genuinely believe it could be. But as it is, I haven't got much more than a hunch for that admittedly. Reboot is obviously not a part of the canon timeline, although it's possible they will continue it in the future as a separate timeline or something.


TL;DR, here is what I think is canon

Not Canon: DMC Reboot

Maybe Canon: Deadly Fortune, SMT

Canon: Everything else.
 
My opinion is nearly identical to yours with the acception of Deadly Fortune being semi-canon in my eyes, possibly even replaces 4 but we'll have to wait for DMC 5 to come out and for Deadly Fortune to get a good translation especially if you love feats because it has quite a few seemingly 7-A+ feats.On the topic of Before The Nightmare it is pretty apparent it is indeed canon seeing as the timline of the games change to fit it.
 
Dienomite22 said:
My opinion is nearly identical to yours with the acception of Deadly Fortune being semi-canon in my eyes, possibly even replaces 4 but we'll have to wait for DMC 5 to come out and for Deadly Fortune to get a good translation especially if you love feats because it has quite a few seemingly 7-A+ feats.On the topic of Before The Nightmare it is pretty apparent it is indeed canon seeing as the timline of the games change to fit it.
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Ah, that would be good. I've heard that there are a few events in Deadly Fortune that imply things in DMC4 happened in a particular way (such as Dante using Dreadnaught form to block the Saviours beam).
 
The Devil May Cry wiki even considers it semi-canon since it is written by Bingo and he is the sole writer 4's story.
 
Very well. I'm willing to accept that it is canon. After all, it would be a bit weird for them to make every novel canon except one.
 
So the beastheads possibly have a 4-A feat as well

In dmc when they say the world they are referring to the universe
 
Sparda 20000000 said:
So the beastheads possibly have a 4-A feat as well

In dmc when they say the world they are referring to the universe
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Debatably. Usually they say either the "human world" or the "demon world". It can be assumed that these are both universes, but it's also possible that the universe is actually the human world + the demon world. In which case, unless they get some accurate comparison to eachother, a feat that affects the whole "human world" or "demon world" would be an indeterminate amount below a universal feat. I genuinely do believe that both the human and demon worlds are seperate universes, but as far as I know that's not proven.
 
Bradygames_DMC_Guide_-_Mundus_Entry.jpg
 
@DarkGrath

The human and demon world are seperate by logic.Time in the Demon World flows illogically and nonlinear, it is described as endless on multiple occasions, and physics also work differently in the Demon World depending on where you go.I could go into more detail but I just want to put that out there.
 
Dienomite22 said:
@DarkGrath
The human and demon world are seperate by logic.Time in the Demon World flows illogically and nonlinear, it is described as endless on multiple occasions, and physics also work differently in the Demon World depending on where you go.I could go into more detail but I just want to put that out there.
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Hmm... the evidence here seems pretty solid. I've mentioned before that I have a revision in mind that could result in 4-A Mundus, and that I'll post it with my reasoning after DMC5 comes out. But if I'm being brutally honest, I do completely believe in 3-A Mundus. And while I will also mention my reasoning in detail on the revision post, as solid as I think it is, I highly doubt anybody will agree with me on 3-A Mundus. It's been so ingrained at this point that he is not universe level that I don't think any amount of evidence would be enough to convince everyone.
 
Sparda 20000000 said:
Well looks like we do have a good case for 4-A
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Yeah, and I have way, way more feats to back it up, along with some reasoning as to why I don't think it would be an outlier. But again, I'm waiting till after the release of DMC5 to post it. I could probably begin writing it up on my computer soon though, assuming nothing in DMC5 disproves my information (which I highly doubt it will).
 
I also think that all novels are canon, at least partially. I heard that CAPCOM made Gilver canon, and since Nell Goldstein is also brought up both in the DMC5 novel and the game, it is probably canon too.

I'll try looking into it.
 
More stuff from the first novel is canon Dante's old partner gue is mentioned and his daughters make an appearance
 
Bobby's Cellar is also mentioned in Before the Nightmare, so yeah, more proof that it's canon I guess.
 
I'm neutral about it, as of now.

Btw, if Dienomite is right about 7-A+ feats in the DMC4 novel, I suppose that Nero scales to them, which would make him roughly equal to Anime Dante (assuming he goes down to 7-A). Makes sense, considering it took one game for Nero to start rivaling Dante in power.
 
In DMC5, several of the novel scenarios are loosely mentioned (DMC4 Novels basically confirmed to be accurate to the story, as well as the DMC1 novel and comic), but nothing on any DMC2 content like the novel.

I mean, the Demon World and Human world are separate, but they are basically "connected" by the hell gates as shown in literally every single game up to now.

Also, I am curious about the context of these tier 4 and 3 feats, because I think if the context is vague or can be interpreted in a completely different matter, it's very unlikely it would scale (not to mention outlier... sorry, I had to mention that)
 
CinCameron20 said:
In DMC5, several of the novel scenarios are loosely mentioned (DMC4 Novels basically confirmed to be accurate to the story, as well as the DMC1 novel and comic), but nothing on any DMC2 content like the novel.
I mean, the Demon World and Human world are separate, but they are basically "connected" by the hell gates as shown in literally every single game up to now.

Also, I am curious about the context of these tier 4 and 3 feats, because I think if the context is vague or can be interpreted in a completely different matter, it's very unlikely it would scale (not to mention outlier... sorry, I had to mention that)
Click to expand...
Don't worry about the outlier point, that is a very important one. I've mentioned the revision page I have planned a few times, and I assure you I do think I have a reasonable explanation as to why these feats should not be considered outliers. It's just far too long and complicated to explain with a simple reply like this (the whole post I have in mind will generally be getting reeeeaaallly indepth with each of my points, so it will be pretty long). But I assure you, I think I can show why they should not be considered outliers.

EDIT: While I can't go into detail about it here, for the sake of it let me summarise my point. Just don't turn this into an argument about this point, since I'm barely scratching the surface with my explanation. Basically, there is a big difference between a character pulling off a very high tier feat that they haven't done before and it being an outlier. In the case of characters like Mundus, it's nearly impossible for feats they perform to be outliers. This is because of how little time that they actually appear. We overestimate how long Mundus has been in the series due to how popular of a villain he is, but so far he's only been in DMC 1 and 3. In DMC1, he barely appears at all until the end of the game, and in DMC3 his role is so minor that he doesn't even have any spoken lines. He has almost no feats to go off of. The only reason he has his current High 6-A ranking is because of scaling to Sid Abigail. Even then, that's still likely highly inaccurate. The High 6-A feat was casual on Sid Abigail's part, the real Abigail is supposedly far stronger than Sid by an unknown degree, and Mundus is supposedly far stronger than Abigail, again by an unknown degree. The definition of an outlier is basically a feat that is so unbelievably far beyond anything the character has ever done that it is completely inconsistent with their character. Characters like Mundus

1: Have almost no feats to go off of

2: Are scaled to characters who are established to be far weaker

If anything, it is more inconsistent with what we know about him to assume that High 6-A is his limit. The whole point of outliers not being used is because of how it breaks their limits, and Mundus' limits have never been fully shown outside of scaling to characters like Dante & Sparda. As such, it is illogical to say that a major feat he performs would be an outlier.


Again, let me restate: This still is not going nearly as in depth as I would like, and there are probably a few questions or rebuttals you have. If you do have any, wait until I post my revision page and then look through what I write.
 
CinCameron20 said:
In DMC5, several of the novel scenarios are loosely mentioned (DMC4 Novels basically confirmed to be accurate to the story, as well as the DMC1 novel and comic), but nothing on any DMC2 content like the novel.
Click to expand...
Nothing regarding the DMC2 Novel is mentioned because just like DMC2, there is literally nothing relevent in it regarding the main DMC timeline.Hell just like the DMC3 manga, these novels were released along side the games with the ending of it connecting with DMC2.
 
i vaguely remember the dmc 3 manga saying the original universe was an infinite darkness before it got split with light. The dmc 2 novel mentioned about shaking the demon world no?
 
@Die - Well, the DMC1, 3, and especially 4 events are strongly established in the DMC5 game. But absolutely NOTHING of DMC2 (even the game) is mentioned in the slightest, which is actually somewhat surprising.
 
TISSG7Redgrave said:
The dmc 2 novel mentioned about shaking the demon world no?
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No, or at least I don't remember that. But the Beastheads did shake the world upon it finding a host and screwing with the weather, also Dante talked (dunno if jokingly) about how the Beastheads seem to be causing the end of the world multiple times.
 
TISSG7Redgrave said:
i vaguely remember the dmc 3 manga saying the original universe was an infinite darkness before it got split with light. The dmc 2 novel mentioned about shaking the demon world no?
Click to expand...
While I'm normally quite defensive about DMC upgrades, admittedly I do have a pretty big problem with this one. The DMC series is infamous for hyperboles, such as an attack involving Gilgamesh claiming it can send it's target to the River Styx, and Beowulf claiming it has the power of a supernova (haven't actually seen the second one admittedly, but it's been mentioned many times). While I'm not conclusive on the matter either way, it is entirely possible that "infinite" is actually just another case of hyperbole here. For it being High 3-A, I'm quite neutral. However, I can give it some credit. The DMC3 novel on that same page claims that the human world is miniscule in comparison to the demon world, and it's already been established that the human world is a full universe (in previous posts). This means that, at the very least, shaking the entire demon world would be a ridiculously above baseline 3-A feat.
 
When it comes to the novels as long as it doesn't contradict anything in the games it is canon all the stuff from the first novel that didn't contradict the games has stayed canon

Volume 2 sets up dmc 2 and contradicts nothing
 
It should also be noted that the DMC novels have always been considered canon. On their character pages, in the abilities section, it makes a specific point that all demons are immune to the beastheads effects, meaning that the DMC2 novel is currently considered canon. Mixed with all the other evidence and logical conclusions judging by that evidence, the burden of proof here would lie on whomever states that the DMC2 novel isn't canon, and at this point the evidence is at best weak, and at worst nigh-nonexistent. Unless more evidence comes out soon, it's pretty easy to accept that the novels are canonical.
 
Does anybody else have comments on the canonicity of the DMC2 novel? I am very strongly for it, but I'm hoping to find some more opinions on the topic.
 
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