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Before The Nightmare and Devil May Cry Canon

Again, I've mentioned this before. I do genuinely respect Matthew, but the chance he'll agree to an upgrade on just about anything these days is practically zilch. Even more so when it comes to Devil May Cry upgrades. But regardless, as valuable as his opinion is, it's not the be all, end all here. Revisions have gone through before that he's disagreed with. When I put up my revision page, I will contact him and make sure he sees it, though I'm not expecting much.
 
Also, for the High 3-A feat, could you specify where exactly it states that the demon world shook when Dante and Void Mundus clashed? I just looked through the fight again, and while I'm probably a bit too tired to be looking through in perfect detail, the closest thing I found was the claim that the void convulsed with Dante's actions. An impressive feat on it's own, but not quite the same.
 
Very well. Dienomite22, when you can, could you respond?
 
Something told me to call it a night (...well morning) on playing DMC5 or well just amazing timing.

There is no demon world shaking feat that I'm aware of, I thought I told Sparda 20000000 this but I guess there was some sort of miscomunication.But on the brightside there is a slight reference to Beryl in DMC5.
 
Okay my bad

So the beastheads feat is either high 6-C if they are talking about the planet

4-A if they are talking about the universe
 
Yeah, but don't worry. I have plenty more 4-A feats in my revision page. It's getting insanely long. :8
 
I think I've finished the revision page. It's extremely long, but I think it will do. Should I post it now?
 
I think @TISSG7Redgrave is asking if you can screencap,link, or copy/paste a piece of your revision.
 
Oh right, of course. Should I put it up on his message wall, or put it here?
 
Alright. I'll copy and paste down the section on the Evil Dimension, proving it's existence as physical and giving us absolute low end tiers for Nightmare, and by proxy Mundus.
 
2.1: The Evil dimension


In DMC1, if you attempt to attack Nightmare without having hit the lights first, you are seemingly teleported to a separate dimension inside. In this dimension, across the three fights you have against Nightmare, you have to defeat a large group of Sargasso's and then one of three bosses that you have already fought in the game (Either Phantom, Griffon, or Nelo/Nero Angelo). This is where the major feat here comes in. The assumption that has been made about this dimension for a long time is that it is purely an illusory world, and that therefore it does not physically exist. However, there are far, far too many problems with this statement.


1: In the DMC Enemy Files, it states "When you are surrounded in its gel-like form, you will be teleported into an evil dimension. You must defeat the evil spirits that rule the dimension. The evil is a reflection of Dante's trauma that rests in his subconscious." Now, this in itself does, admittedly, make it sound sort of like an illusory world. Especially the last sentence, about the evil spirits being reflective of Dante's trauma. However, this is incorrect. The only part which is stated to be illusory here is that the evil spirits appearance are reflective of his subconscious. This means that you are not literally fighting Phantom, Griffon and Nelo/Nero Angelo, a statement which is perfectly reasonable and which I think we can all agree with, especially since they are all fought in the Evil Dimension after their deaths. However, the rest of the paragraph makes it quite clear that this is a physical space. It states "you will be teleported to an evil dimension", a statement which makes it clear you are being sent through a portal. "You must defeat the evil spirits that rule the dimension", a statement which both shows that the evil spirits do literally exist and that there is a dimension here that they can rule. It's quite clearly being made as a point here that the Evil Dimension is a physical space, with real spirits, and that the only thing which is truly not real here is the physical appearance of the demons.


2: Don't worry, this point isn't nearly as long as the last. When you actually do get stuck inside Nightmare, the teleportation is not instant. Not even close. You see a quick cutscene where Dante gets trapped in the goo, then the goo sprouts up and swallows him whole. Then, you see him slowly lowered down into the goo. That brings up a big question here. In every sequence where you fight Nightmare, you can see that there is just a floor underneath him. In literally every depiction, at some point you get to see the floor where Nightmare makes his appearance. This raises an obvious question, however. If that is the case, then when Dante gets pulled down into the goo, where is he going? There is physically no space for him to go unless he is being dragged into a portal, which further solidifies the argument that he is being transported to a whole new dimension.


3: Again, this one is even shorter than the previous one. Quite simply, if this was a purely illusory world, then it should not be possible to be harmed by the demons inside. It is not only possible, but actually quite common for players to enter into the Evil Dimension and die inside. That of course, brings up the question. If this is all an illusion, then how is it possible for Dante to be killed? Or put it a different way, when he dies, where is his body? As I showed in the previous section, he is definitely not in the same physical space where he was before.


One major rebuttal I often hear used to argue that the world is still illusory is the fact that Nightmare's name is… well, Nightmare. Therefore, his world is simply Dante's nightmare. However, this has far, far too many problems with it. First of all, it's a massive double standard. Names alone are never used purely as a means of determining power. Devil May Cry is often considered the only exception to this (I'll touch on the concept of demon's names = power later), however if this exception is considered then this also means that other uses of demon names in DMC are valid. At which point, as so, so many people have said at this point, Mundus' name meaning "universe" would put him at 3-A. You can't have it both ways. Second of all, in comparison to the far more reliable evidence against the idea that it is merely an illusion (namely a guide made by the developers being official developer statements and evidence we see from what happens in game), and you can surely see why Nightmare having that name is baseless in itself.


Conclusion? The Evil Dimension is almost certainly a real, physical dimension. It is backed up by the guide made by the developers that quite explicitly confirms it, and in game evidence would almost definitively suggest that you are being transported to a separate dimension. However, this begs the question. What does this mean for tiering?


The Evil Dimension has a star in it, for starters (no pun intended). I've heard people claim before that this is a myth, but having just replayed DMC1 just recently I can 100% confirm that there is a star. You likely won't see it on many gameplay videos of Nightmare due to the camera angles, however. This is because when you first spawn into the Evil Dimension, the camera is actually directly facing away from the sun. If you manipulate the camera a little bit by moving around (and making sure you don't get attacked by the Sargasso's in the process), you can see vortex-esque looking clouds in the sky, similar to what you see in the Mirror Dimension (I'll get to that later). Behind these clouds, there is a very clear, definitive sun coming through. Assuming that it is not a sun requires far, far too many strange assumptions to be logically valid under Occam's Razor. As such, we know that the Evil Dimension contains a sun, some kind of celestial body with a presumably unknown size (in reference to what you are standing on in the Evil Dimension), along with all of the space in between the two. Making the absolute most pessimistic estimates for this dimension, assuming that the area you are standing on barely stretches beyond the area you see and assuming that the star is far below average size with as little space as possible in between to insure that the sun appears the size it does in the sky would still indicate that this is a Low 4-C feat. On top of that, that's only the most pessimistic estimates, and while I think being conservative with estimates is important, I find these conditions to be extremely unlikely all at once. I find it far, far more likely that this is at least a 4-C feat, if not potentially a High 4-C feat. For the sake of, again, being conservative, 4-C seems to be the most reliable.


Final verdict for this section?

Nightmare, and by proxy Mundus (due to having created Nightmare), is at the absolute minimum:

4-C
 
DarkGrath said:
The Evil Dimension has a star in it, for starters (no pun intended). I've heard people claim before that this is a myth, but having just replayed DMC1 just recently I can 100% confirm that there is a star. You likely won't see it on many gameplay videos of Nightmare due to the camera angles, however. This is because when you first spawn into the Evil Dimension, the camera is actually directly facing away from the sun. If you manipulate the camera a little bit by moving around (and making sure you don't get attacked by the Sargasso's in the process), you can see vortex-esque looking clouds in the sky, similar to what you see in the Mirror Dimension (I'll get to that later). Behind these clouds, there is a very clear, definitive sun coming through. Assuming that it is not a sun requires far, far too many strange assumptions to be logically valid under Occam's Razor. As such, we know that the Evil Dimension contains a sun, some kind of celestial body with a presumably unknown size (in reference to what you are standing on in the Evil Dimension), along with all of the space in between the two. Making the absolute most pessimistic estimates for this dimension, assuming that the area you are standing on barely stretches beyond the area you see and assuming that the star is far below average size with as little space as possible in between to insure that the sun appears the size it does in the sky would still indicate that this is a Low 4-C feat. On top of that, that's only the most pessimistic estimates, and while I think being conservative with estimates is important, I find these conditions to be extremely unlikely all at once. I find it far, far more likely that this is at least a 4-C feat, if not potentially a High 4-C feat. For the sake of, again, being conservative, 4-C seems to be the most reliable.


Final verdict for this section?

Nightmare, and by proxy Mundus (due to having created Nightmare), is at the absolute minimum:

4-C
Click to expand...
Everything is great except for ^this^ whole part.Based off my experience in this wiki that explanation won't work...trust me.Dunno if you already have the Savior powering the dice game as a feat but if you don't, that would be a better feat to use and overall more convincing.
 
I do have the dice game game feat, along with another feat that will take a bit longer to explain. I've calculated both as being MSS, or 4-A feats. I've mostly put this part in to show consistency. Mundus has claimed that he never creates demons more powerful than himself, so Nightmare being 4-C and Mundus being 4-A is consistent with what we know.

To clarify, what exactly do you mean when you say that explanation won't work? It seems pretty definitive to me. Going off of the range that a sun creation feat could be (around Low 4-C to High 4-C), the 4-C measurement I use seems to be the most realistic. I trust that you have the experience to know why it won't work, but could you explain it to me?
 
Please, this is quite important. I'm not going to let the whole revision collapse because of one disagreeable part.
 
Is anyone involved with this thread still around?
 
^Probably, probably not.

Look, people here is more or less uninterested because the wiki will never accept Dante being at higher tiers.

As for what he said, I think it's because the wikia doesn't accept star feats based on pocket dimensions, even those TLoZ MM has a 4-C rating thanks to that and some others too but it only shows doubled standards since Kaguya doesn't have the 4-C rating because "it's stupid to think that some teenagers can beat a high tier goddess", or at least I remember that is the reasoning used for her.

Anyway, we are going to help when we can with your CRT and give you our support.
 
Tony di bugalu said:
^Probably, probably not.
Look, people here is more or less uninterested because the wiki will never accept Dante being at higher tiers.

As for what he said, I think it's because the wikia doesn't accept star feats based on pocket dimensions, even those TLoZ MM has a 4-C rating thanks to that and some others too but it only shows doubled standards since Kaguya doesn't have the 4-C rating because "it's stupid to think that some teenagers can beat a high tier goddess", or at least I remember that is the reasoning used for her.

Anyway, we are going to help when we can with your CRT and give you our support.
Click to expand...
Thank you. And I do really appreciate that. I'll be perfectly honest, as I've mentioned before, I doubt any upgrade regardless of how solid or detailed it is will go through for Devil May Cry. As it is, while I hate to throw this word around when referring to such a large varied demographic, this wiki seems to be pretty biased against Devil May Cry. It might have something to do with the toxic fanbase since in general, the wiki seems to dislike any attempts to upgrade verses with hostile fans. I've made my CRT as ridiculously detailed as possible in an attempt to combat this issue, since admittedly sometimes feats people suggest for Devil May Cry have little detail and come off as being wanks. I appreciate the support for my CRT so far. Also, a thread has been made a little while back about double standards in pocket dimension feats, although I don't know what conclusions have been made. I'll have to check it later.
 
Sorry for not reponding earlier was playing DMC5.To add on to what @Tony di bugalu the big problem with the evil dimension having a star argument is that it relies on visual interpretation that could be taken explained by simply saying the star is fake and the dimension isn't that big and then they would say prove that the star is real and that the dimension is bigger than what is shown, you see how easy it is to flip that back to you?You will not believe how many times this arguement has been used to counter dimension creation feats.
 
I've mentioned previously that Occam's Razor shows that it being a star is by far the most likely conclusion here. To assume that it is just fake, you have to assume that they put up a light in the sky for no particular reason when it could be anywhere else, you have to assume that they made the scale of it look almost identical to the sun present in the real world, again for no real reason, you have to assume that the light is coming from something completely different that is left unexplained, and so much more. I mean, really. Why would they have put up a light fixture in the sky that looks exactly like the sun in every way but is in fact an unknown light source, when the only assumption being made when you say that it is a real sun is that... the thing that looks like a sun is a sun? A whole bunch of ridiculous assumptions have to be made in order to say that it is not a sun, when only a single perfectly reasonable assumption has to be made to say that it is real. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Under Occam's Razor, it is completely unreasonable to assume that the sun is fake.
 
But yes, you do still make a good point. That is an argument that needs to be accounted for. I'll include that in the section.
 
Any more arguments? I need to make this CRT as fool-proof as possible to give it a chance of going through.
 
Many explanations can be provided to counter it being a real sun, they will say the dimension isn't that big (because frankly speaking it doesn't) and the "sun" doesn't look like sun (because once again it doesn't look like one).Another thing you will need to provide is a clear and undeniable picture showing the said star being behind the cloud vortex.
 
I'll see if I can, but it might be difficult. I replayed DMC1 just recently, which was when I found it. Problem is, I don't have any good recording software to show it. Also, just getting back to it again will require replaying the entire game (since DMC1 doesn't let you pick your missions). The dimension may not look too big, but with clouds and mist covering everything and the choppy graphics of the time, it's nearly impossible to make out any definitive scale here. If anything, I would consider the sun in the sky to be a good indication of the scale. The sun does still look like the sun in the real world. I compared it to how it looks quite similar to the one in the mirror dimension, and practically nobody denys the idea that the mirror world has a sun. The only debate they have against that is the fact that there isn't any proof that the mirror world was made by Mundus. As such, the evidence still stands.
 
Any more arguments? Again, I want this to be as fool-proof as possible.
 
If anybody want's to debate this or wants to know any other arguments I have, let me know. I'll contact you on your message wall with the info.
 
Honestly, despite the DMC Vol. 2 novel being semi/fully canon, if the statistics were to be accepted, It would probably be best to separate it in another profile entirely (like "Dante (Novels)" or something). But considering what DMC5 brings up, and the "dimension shake" happened in a fight with Mundus, I am not buying it, outlier or not.

As for DMC1, when Mundus "creates a dimension" I'm very doubtful this is the case. There are many instances in Devil May Cry where Illusions come into play, especially when it comes to the environment. DMC3 game/comic content especially. DMC5 even goes into that realm.

Hell, spoiler warning for dmc5, Mundus ate a fruit created by a Q. Tree (Not even gonna attempt spelling it atm) which Urizen states in game "uses illusions" and the specific area they are fighting in is merely a screen that hides the inside of the tree. Considering Trish basically goes on a long rant about the tree and the fruit at the start of Mission 13, bringing up Mundus to boot, it can be a strong point against any "dimension creation" feat in DMC1 (at least by Mundus or later in the series by anyone ever stated to be the demon king at any point). Dante and Mundus could have been fighting in the exact same location and Mundus was playing tricks on Dante. The moment Mundus lost, Dante was suddenly back in the same spot he was before fighting.

However, I have not the slightest clue about this whole "Nightmare 4-C feat". I'm not deep into the lore regarding the novels, but I have been told there are an abundance of hyperbolic statements (Beowulf capable of causing a supernova? Can we sit down and think about how that's not ever supported at all?).
 
For the record, I haven't played through DMC5 yet, so I'm not going to read that part. However, I want to be clear that the Nightmare 4-C feat has nothing to do with hyperbolic statements. The supernova feat from Beowulf is a completely obvious exaggeration, I would never claim it to be evidence. However, hyperbolic statements have to do with when a feat is exaggerated far beyond what is actually is. Statements saying that an area that's usually assumed to be an illusion is actually real has nothing to do with hyperbole.
 
@CinCameron20 No, the fruit creating an illusion doesn't mean the space Mundus created is some sort of illusion and it's not even connected to it and thinking Mundus created an illusion to fight Dante in is stupid, Dante and Mundus were flying throughout this whole "illusion" and Mundus was creating landscapes inside said illusion.The Mundus feat being an illusion arguement doesn't hold up wether its by the game itself and/or logic wise.And although the universal statement isn't usable, that in itself shows that the feat wasn't meant to be an illusion.

And let's not say Dante was in some sort of genjustu during his fight with Mundus because that is easily refutable just by looking at the state Mundus is in after the fight and the fact he had to open a portal to get back to Mallet island.
 
It's not stupid to think that the illusion (assuming it is. I'm just saying it's a point that can be thrown against him literally making a universe-sized dimension) was intended to incite fear onto Dante. And as you said, Mundus did use a portal to get back, so perhaps he used one to send himself and Dante into space, and upon his defeat, plot reasons had Dante right back with Trish.

I'm merely stating the possibility of an illusion. Not that it is definitely the case cus "ermahgerd, DMC5 brings it up, therefore it's truuuue"
 
@CinCameron20

Yea, Mundus creating an illusion to intimidate Dante isn't stupid at face value because it is a viable technique but that wouldn't even work as an argument against it being a creation feat because as stated before the entire fight that happened wouldn't have been possible if it were an illusion.And the Mundus using a portal to send Dante to space was another argument that was also negated before,We've seen what Mundus teleporting and portals look like before in the game and both look nothing like what happened in that scene.I know you're only talking about the potential arguments that could pop up but these have be made and argued against before and the feat was even aknowledged to be a legit creation feat but was considered an outlier (you can find a thread from a while back discussing it).I'm just frustrated that the feat is being called an illusion without explaining why and a bunch of people are gulping that up.
 
I myself believe that Mundus teleported Dante to a completely separate dimension. There is a massive flaw in the argument that the area is an illusion, namely, you are quite visibly travelling in it. I'm not sure how quickly exactly, but everything suggests it to be a large area, from the cutscenes to the gameplay. It's blatantly clear it's not still in the throne room. Also, the argument that he is just being teleported to space has a massive flaw as well. How would Dante have ended up back at the throne room afterwards? The portal closes behind them, so he couldn't have just retraced his steps. There is no evidence he is capable of creating portals himself. Mundus obviously didn't make a portal for him to get back. The only way I can think to explain it is that Dante defeating Mundus collapsed the dimension they were in, and this brought him back to where he was before (I get more into detail about this in my CRT I'm writing).
 
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