When They Cry Revisions

Continuation based on the verdict we reached here.

To repost what I said in the closing if the previous thread:

"I want the Umineko cosmology explained right now. Yes fammade charts are acceptable so long as there is context supported from the games with scans and so forth. Then we will determine if it is applicable and Prom can update the pages accordingly.

'I want the cosmology explained using in-universe material. That's all.

Anyone is allowed to prove the cosmology is as it has been stated to be in some threads. I just want to see it proved with scans fron Higurashi, Umineko, TriAnthology, or anything else that provides the evidence. DarkLK so far is the only one who stated willingness to actually provide context to anything we find."

Be civil and polite per our discussion rules.

Finally

Please remember to keep this thread on-point and in a "matter-of-fact" manner. No pointless accusations or mudslinging. Let's be constructive and help each other out here. Everyone's opinion should at the very least be heard. Thank you.

I strongly agree with Sera's last post.

Ill inform one of my pals about this thread, he will need 10 days to dig up some evidence. Ill see if anyone else is interested

@Xaintxeiya

Well, I hope that there is no rush. The I/O revisions have been going on for over 6 months now.

There's no particular rush, but we should get the ball rolling.

Yes.

Oh well, I'll just quote myself from my reddit RTs:

Umineko is tiered by levels of existence. Occasionally these are referred to as "dimension" but more with the understanding that dimension equates to plane. Those levels of existence were comparable to an infinite ladder.

Low on these levels are game boards. Parallel worlds converge through them, as shown by the Episode 6 gameboard residing in the meta-world, prepared beforehand. Above the game boards, there's the Meta-World and other lower Worlds. All of this only encompasses a CatBox, a Fragment, or a Book.

Above this is the Sea of Fragments, an endless sea where Fragments are located. Those Fragments, or Kakera, are fragments of light that represents infinite parallel universes with endless possibilities and they came into various shapes and forms, such as books or crystals with different contents (some contain a universe, others a multiverse or even more). Voyager Witches constantly travel across the infinite Sea to find a Fragment to escape their boredom.

Sorry for the double post, but for some reason I can't post the entire reply. Anyway, continuing from my first comment:

There are more locations in the Sea or above it, like Heaven, Hell, Aurora's Study, future worlds, etc., but the most important is The City of Books, one the highest known level of existence in Umineko (there's hinted to be levels higher than the City, like the Realm of the Creator, or a higher world which the witch Featherine Augustus Aurora has access to it). The City of Books is a place where countless Fragments are stored as Books. The entire story of Umineko is noted to barely amount to a single book in the City, if that.

So I hope this helps.

We all know this. This is primarily about everyone being Outerverse level.

And here I thought I would be of some help lol

Well. Your input is appreciated all the same ^.^

Still not a bad thing to recap how the umineko hierarchy works tho @Ovy7 ~ ƒæì

So let's look at the original terms.

Ú¡öÕÑ│ÒüƒÒüíÒüîÒâïÒâ│Òé▓Òâ│ÒéÆÒé▓Òâ╝ÒâáþøñÒü«ÚºÆÒü¿Õÿ▓þ¼æÒüúÒüªÒÇüõ©èÕ▒ñõ©ûþòîÒüïÒéëÞªïõ©ïÒéìÒüøÒéïÒéêÒüåÒü½ÒÇéÕ¢╝ÕÑ│ÒééÒü¥ÒüƒÒÇüÚ¡öÕÑ│ÒüƒÒüíÒü«ÚáÿÕƒƒÒüòÒüêÒééÒÇüÒé▓Òâ╝ÒâáþøñÒü«ÚºÆÒü¿Õÿ▓þ¼æÒüúÒüªÒÇüÒüòÒéëÒü½õ©èÕ▒ñÒü«õ©ûþòîÒüïÒéëÞªïõ©ïÒéìÒüøÒéïÒÇé

……Òü®ÒéîÒüáÒüæõ©èÕ▒ñÒü«õ©ûþòîÒü½Þç│ÒéîÒéïÒüïÒüîÒÇüÚ¡öÕÑ│Òü«Õ╝ÀÒüòÒüáÒü¿ÒüùÒüƒÒéëÒÇéÕ¢╝ÕÑ│Òü»ÒÇüÞç│ÒüúÒüªÒü»Òü¬ÒéëÒü¼µ£Çõ©èÕ▒ñÒü½ÞºªÒéîÒü¬ÒüîÒéëÒÇüþöƒÒüìÒüªÕ©░ÒüúÒüªÒüìÒüƒÒÇü……þÑ×Òü«Õø¢ÒéêÒéèþöƒÚéäÒüùÒüƒÚ¡öÕÑ│Òü¬Òü«Òüá……ÒÇé

Here are some terms that I often use.

Layer (Õ▒ñ) or more often higher layer (õ©èÕ▒ñ) in the context. This is the main indicator of power. Existential hierarchical position. From a higher layer, you can view creatures and worlds of the lower as fiction, play, etc.

Next we have the term Domain/Region (ÚáÿÕƒƒ or Õƒƒ). In context, it is often used as Domain of something (Witches, Humans/Mortals/Ningen, Creator, Zero). Sometimes they are simply called worlds, especially in translations. Territories and layers are within some domains.

Moreover, the hierarchical layers do not end in the domain of the witches, since even Featherine looks at their world from some higher layer beyond their Domain. And this is after she survived after reaching the so-called top layer (µ£Çõ©èÕ▒ñ) and the come back from the Realm of God.

So we have the Domain of the People, the Domain of the Witches and some other higher domain, above which is the forbidden Kingdom of God (where it is supposed to be impossible to survive because boundless nature of the Creator).

And the superiority over the Domain of Humans is compared to the superiority over the Domain of witches (that has its own hierachical layers) from the perspective of an even higher Domain (that also has its own hierachical layers).

I think with this we have no problems?

Yeah, that seems ok. I wanted to post some scans of Lambda talking about this, but for some reason, I keep getting errors when I try to post the reply.

Ovy7 said:

Yeah, that seems ok. I wanted to post some scans of Lambda talking about this, but for some reason, I keep getting errors when I try to post the reply.

Click to expand...

If you take more than 20 min (I think?) to type the response, it times out and won't post when you hit the reply button. I dunno if that's the issue at play here though obv

I've had this issue a bunch on mobile before so I constantly copy, reload the page, and paste when I feel like I've been typing for a while lol

Dunno. If I try now it still doesn't work (I saved in notepad the bit that it doesn't let me post).

Yeeup, there's no problem with that

Talking about DarkLK and his post

Okay, tomorrow I will continue my thought.

No problem. It is no need to rush things over

I actually will have to request evidence and scans on that. On the human domain part, which apparently comes from Higanbana (and Trianthology if I recall correctly?) some say.

Lambda herself refers to the ladder and restrictions in her memoirs as the physical world. Based on that, I actually want a scan to prove that the ladder she mentions *AS A WHOLE* is entirely superior to the physical world of humans and its dimensions rather than an extension/part of it -like an infinitely higher dimensional hierarchy.

Reason for that being the following pieces of dialogue from Lambda herself:

---

"...Well, even if I turned a human into a god all of a sudden, their mind would just disperse, though.
Maybe it's also necessary for them to take these steps known as effort in order to gradually accustom their bodies to the atmospheric pressures of the world of the almighty.
Maybe our world is just like going down an infinite ladder that leads to bottomless depths.
You could descend all nervous and timid, wondering how much longer there is to go until you reach the depths, or you could plunge down in excitement and hurry.
But if you lose your footing... you'll fall forever towards the bottomless abyss."

---

"This kid was still inexperienced, no question about it. Her magical world was still only half finished. However, the composition formula leading to its formation was flawless and had infinite possibilities.
I'm sure it'll take a long time to learn to master that infinity, but there was no room for doubt that she had already opened the door and was reaching for the other side.

And above all, the unique point of this 'witch' was that she had succeeded in establishing her magic system in the human world.

Witches are proportionally released from their constraints as they seek for more freedom and power.
Restrictions here meaning the physical world. In other words, in order to do that, witches such as myself and those of the same rank will reach the point where we steadily drift off further and further from the physical, human world.

But this witch accomplished it in the human world.
That is, even with the body of a human, her feet are treading upon the same world as ours...!

No... On the contrary, her composition formula is too deep.
While I've been climbing down the well on the ladder one rung at a time over the course of millennia, it's as though she opened up a parasol and used that as a parachute to swoop down to the depths... and at what speed...!

...Naturally, there's the danger that that parasol might break, sending her plummeting down to abyss just like that.
Because of that recklessness, impulsiveness of youth and despise for the likes of humans... as well as my interest in seeing how far this witch would be able to go, I decided to shed some light on this world yet unknown to me and felt honoured to be able to smell the sweet fragrance of this black tea that I had never savoured before.

This is just my opinion, but hear me out.

It could be said that all beings are placed somewhere between two extremes: the side that gets tossed about by fate, and the side that brings about fate.

The ones tossed about by fate are the humans. Fools, helpless, can't create anything.

...However, they have a ground to firmly step under their feet. And that ground will never betray them, thus, they can live their whole existence without the fear of the terror of falling to hell.

Beings that have completely lost all constraints... In exchange for gaining everything, they have lost even the limitation of their own 'meaning'.
...When even the notion of life and death and the meaning of existence has been lost... they reach the level of zero. Or rather, they fall down to it. Crash down. Crumble. Vanish like mist.

I think the ones placed in the middle are us, the witches.
We create fate and play with it. We move around in that interstice.
However, we accept certain restrictions and limitations, leaving ourselves some footing so that we won't tumble down.

To the witches who are not afraid of it, the ones who are far, far ahead of me... these restrictions don't exist.

Will she become the cup of black tea to alleviate even a moment of the boredom of my millennia-long journey?
Or will she become a witch far superior to me who will shine a light on the depths where cowards like me might never be able to reach and show me a new world?

Either one would be fine."

---

As you can see, Lambda mentions the stairway as a whole, not various ones. Even the realm of the Creator is something she puts as part (naturally the apex) of said stairway while describing it. Therefore, it contradicts this overall separation of "An infinite ladder for humans", "an infinite ladder for witches" and "an infinite ladder for the creator realm". They are all part of the same stairway as far as Lambdadelta has presented it. And, given how these particular pieces of information are always used as a central point to the Umineko cosmology, I have disagree with the sense of three infinite ladders unless something proves otherwise on what Lambda has stated.

Long story short: I believe hierarchy can get high enough to reach 1-A levels and such.

What I'd like to see proven however, with scans, is that association that due to multiple Domains, the first step on the Domain of witches is already 1-A from the get go rather than a higher extension of the human world as Lambda presented a single infinite ladder going aaaaall the way down from the human domain and up to the apex of the Creator with no restrictions whatsoever.

That'll definitely be helpful

I'll try and get Trianthology if possible and as soon as i ca but i can't say it's a definite yes

Yeah, all right, there is a common endless journey to the endpoint (Creator), but it is divided into three different Domains/Hierarchies. We will talk about the differences between them later.

@DarkLK

Thank you for helping out.

FateAlbane said:

Long story short: I believe hierarchy can get high enough to reach 1-A levels and such.

What I'd like to see proven however, with scans, is that association that due to multiple Domains, the first step on the Domain of witches is already 1-A from the get go rather than a higher extension of the human world as Lambda presented a single infinite ladder going aaaaall the way down from the human domain and up to the apex of the Creator with no restrictions whatsoever.

Click to expand...

Im going to try and help with this one so yes this is a endless journey to reach omnipotence and be erased however im going to try and catch your opinion somehow with this simple scan i provide and add context to it

Featherine transcends witches the same way they transcend humans https://imgur.com/gallery/bqqXbUL

As you can see it would make sense for their to be multiple domains. Because theres a peak of each domain and once you surpass said peak you are tiered differently

Humans are the lowest existences But humans can become witches once they surpass their said domain And witches can become creators once they surpass that said domain.

Due to the statement above it clearly shows there are different existences and higher existences look down at the lower ones like chessboards

we all know characters are tiered by existences

But of course im sure theres much harder evidence for the proof of domains. I hope i was able to make you think at the very least

@Xaintxeiya Thanks for the input, but just for clarification,

I didn't say there aren't three domains. In fact, what I posted is supportive of that.

What I said is that the infinite ladder Lambdadelta speaks of encompasses them as a whole (Starting at Human and going all the way up to Creator) rather than there being three individual and endless hierarchies of ladders, one for each Domain (of Humans -> Witches -> Creator).

The actual question is more about providing scans and cosmology to show how expansive each domain is and where the beings residing on them fall at in the tiering system - of course, taking into consideration how these realms work, what they encompass and what they transcend.

So, we have already found out that the power is determined by layers, the movement through them is metaphorically compared with steps on an endless ladder, which passes through different domains. Next, we need to understand the structure of individual domains.

We know that Beatrice unknowingly for herself has undergone an internal evolution to a higher domain than the domain of witches.


As before, it is described as a step, but as a first step already in another domain. That is, the counting of the steps there begins anew, that is, roughly speaking, this part of the composite ladder is considered as a separate hierarchy. How big is this part separately? Maybe this is just the final straight line, where through a limited number of steps there will be a gate to the Creator? Indeed, this is the domain where Featherine is after her return from the Realm of God. However, even there steps will last forever for one simple reason. Because there is no endpoint by definition.


As long as it is still a travel (and since we are talking about hierarchy it is) it will be infinite. As we can see, the Creator (endpoint) is not just some top part of the hierarchy that can be achieved by gradually approaching, but something alogical (travel to the endpoint where there is no endpoint to avoid the endpoint) and separate.


Not surprisingly, Voyagers have an existential fear that cannot be understood by anyone but themselves.

I also ask you to pay attention to the fact that the transition to a higher domain than the domain of witches was achieved by some special internal evolution, and not an actual movement on the steps. At first, human Yasu, due to her mental state underwent a similar evolution to the domain of witches, even if she could not actually realize this without recognition from Lambdadelta. And when Beatrice became a witch, she again repeated the evolution, but also could not realize it.

Now we move on to the next question. Why the domain of people is also a hierarchy, and not just a first layer, as it may seem at first glance.

As already mentioned, the superiority of the domain of witches over the domain of humans is compared with the superiority of the more high domain over the domain of witches. Accordingly, they should have a similar internal structure. Then it is logical that the domain of humans should also be a similar hierarchy. But such a conclusion without additional data would be too unreliable. Fortunately we have the necessary data.


ÒééÒüíÒéìÒéôÒÇüÕÅ│õ╗úÕ««Õ«ÂÒü¿þ©üÒü¬Òü®ÒüéÒéïÒéÅÒüæÒééÒü¬ÒüäÒÇéÒüØÒééÒüØÒééÒÇüÕ¢╝ÒéëÒü«Õ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒüÖÒéïÚÜÄÕ▒ñÒüòÒüêÒÇüþò░Òü¬ÒéïÒÇé

~Of course, Willard has nothing to do with the Ushiromiya family. ~First of all, they exist in different hierarchies.

The term hierarchy applies to the domain of humans. And it is separate thing from the higher domain where Willard exists.

Now we have to make sure that hierarchy implies the hierarchy of layers exactly.

I think everyone knows that in Umineko it was mentioned that there are Kakeras which are worlds of some human fictions. Even human theories could be represented as Kakeras. Nevertheless, this in itself does not mean that the worlds have some kind of hierarchical connection. This may simply be a feature of cosmology, or even a trivial fact that among the endless possibilities, you can find one that will fit to a certain fictional thing.


So for example, we have three Kakeras.


ÒüôÒü«´╝ôÒüñÒü«õ©ûþòîÒü»õ©ÇÞªïÒÇüþï¼þ½ïÒüùÒüªÒüäÒéïÒüîÒÇüÒü®ÒüôÒüïÒüºþ╣ïÒüîÒüúÒüªÒüäÒéïÒÇé

~These three worlds seems independent at the first glance, but they are connected somewhere.

For a higher order being there is no difference between them (this is probably due to the fact that the crystalline forms of kakeras belongs to the higher domain, in contrast to their contents, as was said in Higurashi). Nevertheless, they have some connection with each other.


ÒÇÉÒéóÒâ¬Òé╣ÒÇæÒÇîÒéÅÒüïÒüúÒüƒÒüúÒÇé……ÒüñÒü¥ÒéèÕ«çÕ«Öµêªõ║ëÒü«õ©ûþòîÒü»ÒÇüþòÅõ║║Òü«ÚüèÒéôÒüºÒüäÒéï´╝ª´╝░´╝│Òé▓Òâ╝ÒâáÒü«õ©ûþòîÒü¬Òü«ÒéêÒÇì

~Alice: I understand. That is, the space war world of is the world of FPS game.


ÒÇÉÒéóÒâ¬Òé╣ÒÇæÒÇîÒüñÒü¥ÒéèÒÇüÕ«çÕ«Öµêªõ║ëõ©ûþòîÒü¿Òâ®ÒâÄÒâÖÕ¡ªÕ£Æõ©ûþòîÒü»ÒÇüõ©èõ©ïÚûóõ┐éÒüºþ╣ïÒüîÒüúÒüªÒüäÒéïÒü«ÒéêÒüúÒÇì

~Alice: In other words, the space war world and the ranobe gakuen (~school light novel) world are connected by a hierarchical relationship.

A computer game from one human world is another human world and therefore they have a hierarchical connection.


ÒüôÒü«õ©ûþòîÒü«õ©èÕ▒ñÒüºÒüéÒéïÒâ®ÒâÄÒâÖÕ¡ªÕ£Æõ©ûþòîÒüºÒÇüµâàÕá▒Õ▒ïÒéÆÞç¬þº░ÒüÖÒéïõ║║þë®Òü»´╝æõ║║ÒüùÒüïÒüäÒü¬ÒüäÒÇé

~In the ranobe gakuen world that is the higher layer for this world, there is only one person who calls the snitch.

Thus, the hierarchical division of the worlds of the lower domain is still a division of layers.

If there are no problems with this, then next time we will talk about why there is an insurmountable qualitative difference between domains/hierarchies.

@DarkLK

That's perfect. Please, continue when you are ready.

Yes. Thank you very much for all of your help.

I agree with mostly everything, yet I have to raise a question just to be sure.

"Indeed, this is the domain where Featherine is after her return from the Realm of God. However, even there steps will last forever for one simple reason. Because there is no end point by definition."




As long as it is still a travel (and since we are talking about hierarchy it is) it will be infinite. As we can see, the Creator (endpoint) is not just some top part of the hierarchy that can be achieved by gradually approaching, but something alogical and separate.




Not surprisingly, Voyagers have an existential fear that cannot be understood by anyone but themselves.

^ This point refers to the Creator's Domain/where Featherine's standing in particular, right? If so, I agree completely. If this refers to the Domain of Witches as well, however, I'll have to raise a point. As the story has put it, it's not as much that it doesn't end as the journey in itself is to escape that final point and the toxin of boredom, because it translates to losing all sense of self. As Lambda put it in her memoirs, "plummeting down to the Abyss" or as Bern put it in Ougon Musou Kyoku Cross, "gradually becoming scraps of seaweed in the sea of boredom", regardless of their importance to the world. It is also adressed in the tea party of Episode 5/End of the Golden Witch in the (almost) parting of the two.

FateAlbane said:

This point refers to the Creator's Domain/where Featherine's standing in particular, right?

Click to expand...

I'm not sure that the term Creator's Domain refers to this domain or to the endpoint that will be beyond it, but right, I'm talking about the domain that is higher than the domain of witches.

Boredom and Voyagers is another topic for discussion.

Sure thing! I agree with it all, then.

Okay. Thanks.

So who would be willing to help out with properly revising our Umineko profiles based on the above information and any further proof that DarkLK might share with us?

I would personally appreciate if Promestein and Sera are willing to lend a hand.

I would be willing to help revise the profiles. I'm also currently during research into the concept of catboxes and I should be able to reveal that information soon.

Well, the profiles would have to get very thorough justifications/explanations for the statistics.

That is fine. Given the length of the explanations here as the detail, I don't think that will be a problem.

Okay. Perhaps you could collaborate with Promestei during the revision? She is knowledgeable regarding Umineko.

Okay, I turn to the main thing regarding hierarchies.

Why worlds and layers of a higher domain are something transcendental to worlds and layers of a lower domain. In particular, we are interested in the difference between the domain of humans and the domain of witches, that is the first higher domain.

Just in case, I will clarify that the "Human Domain" is actually the "Ningen Domain" (ÒâïÒâ│Òé▓Òâ│Òü«Õƒƒ) and in a broad sense it refers to the world of all creatures who are "tossed about by fate", and not just literally to homo sapiens with their current level of development.




õ║öµ¼íÕàâÒü«ÕúüÒéÆÞÂèÒüêÒüªþÅ¥Õ£¿Òü«õ©ûþòîÒü½þº╗Òéèõ¢ÅÒéÇÒéêÒüåÒü½Òü¬ÒüúÒüƒÒÇîÒâ¬ÒâÑÒâ╝Òâ│Òü«µ░æÒÇìÒü«Õàѵñìþèµ│üÒéÆÞªïÕ«êÒéèÒÇüÕàêõ¢Åµ░æÒü©Òü«Õì▒Õ«│Òü¬Òü®ÚüòÕÅìÞíîþé║ÒéÆÞíîÒüåÞÇàÒü½Õ»¥ÒüùÒüªÕêÂÞúüÒüÖÒéïÒüôÒü¿ÒéÆõ╗╗ÕïÖÒü¿ÒüÖÒéïÒÇîþøúÞªûÞÇà´╝êÒé©ÒéºÒâÇ）ÒÇìÒü«Òü▓Òü¿ÒéèÒÇé

~Is one of the "guardians (Jedas)" who monitor the immigration situation of their fellow "Ryün people" who crossed the fifth dimension wall to live in the current world.

Õ¢╝ÕÑ│ÒüîÒÇüõ║║Òü«õ©ûÒéêÒéèÒü»ÒéïÒüïÒü½Ú½ÿÒüäµ¼íÕàâÒüïÒéëÚÖìÞç¿ÒüòÒéîÒüƒþÑ×ÒÇàÒüùÒüäÕ¡ÿÕ£¿Òü¬Òü«ÒüïÒÇé

~Is she a divine existence descended from a far higher dimension than the person world.

Everyone knows that even in human domain we have high-dimensional worlds and complex quantum structures.

The hierarchy of layers will multiply the complexity of these things, but this in itself will not give us transcendence for such concepts.

Now let's talk about the differences between domains.

First, we know that kakeras in the form of tangible crystals, which can be directly influenced, exist only in higher domains.



Even if for some reason Kakeras end up in the domain of humans, there they appear only in the form of feelings and cannot be destroyed.


Õ░ÅÒüòÒü¬Òé½Òé▒Òâ®ÒÇé

~Tiny kakera.


The feeling of love, for example (love is very important for the whole creation, but this is a separate topic).



This is the place where the kakeras come from this is of course the higher Domain. So, how high is this place compared to the Domain of Humans?




And in the end, we can not estimate this place from the point of view of the lower domain just because it goes beyond the peak of intelligence. No words and formulations can express it and, accordingly, any fictions of lower beings which forms layers of the ningen domain will never go beyond this domain, regardless of the hierarchy of them. The lowest being will simply disappear in the higher domain, even if it receives chance to go into this (Lambda in her diary also said about this when she talked about turning a person into a god). In addition, a broader understanding of the World is one of the reasons why higher beings suffer from boredom in their hopeless domain (µòæÒüäÒü«Òü¬ÒüäÚáÿÕƒƒ), which is a particularly big problem in the case of Voyagers who are able to understand more than anyone else. Most likely, it is precisely the fact that the higher domain beyond the human conceptualization is the reason for the term "meta-world". That is, it is a metaphysical and metaphoric realm, where everything is not really the way it looks like.

And sorry for my english.