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Our Umineko/When They Cry Problem

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Sera_EX

Sera_EX

She Who Dabbles in Fiction
VS Battles
Retired
6,104
5,102
Alright so, it's been brought to my attention that it's been nearly two years since Umineko was supposed to be revised by Azathoth and DarkLK but it never happened. Now I understand Azzy is busy and also is doing a Marvel blog IIRC, but the problem is Umineko characters are being described in threads as being significantly more powerful than they are currently listed, to a point where they are winning versus threads against other 1-As.

Another issue is whenever people question Umineko's cosmology they are always beaten down with classic Appeal to Authority fallacies, and the evidence provided, is always a fanmade chart of the cosmology made by DarkLK rather than actual scans from the visual novels or manga. They are repeatedly told to just accept fanon explanations. This is starting to bother people because the verse has yet to be revised and seemingly never will be.

Do know that this was not made with ill-will towards DarkLK and especially not Azathoth (who I have a lot of respect for), but we can't keep waiting and appealing to authority.
 
Sera EX said:
Another issue is whenever people question Umineko's cosmology they are always beaten down with classic Appeal to Authority fallacies, and the evidence provided, is always a fanmade chart of the cosmology made by DarkLK rather than actual scans from the visual novels or manga. They are repeatedly told to just accept fanon explanations. This is starting to bother people because the verse has yet to be revised and seemingly never will be.
Click to expand...
I noticed this
 
@Sera

It has not been 2 years. I started asking Azathoth about this 7-8 months ago or so, and he still has this on his to-do list. I would appreciate if you would try to directly collaborate with DarkLK about a revision rather than create a highlighted thread about it. Thank you.
 
Thank you for making this Sera.

I won't lie, this has been a thing bothering for me a lot of months (dare i say years by now considering how much i stayed on the wiki). This problem for me, stems from the fact that Umineko has said to be revised by DarkLK and Azzy, but needed time to WtC being a huge series. This is perfectly reasonable and there's nothing wrong. However, time passed on and...the revision had yet to be made

What made me a bit annoyed is how Umineko has been accapted numerous times to be 1-A for reason:

  • Fanmade charts made by DarkLK and not scans from VNs/Manga/Whatever
  • The additional reason that is DarkLK being a staff that contributed in the system of our wiki, had made it so that his words were absolute when it would come to Umineko. Even without lack of evidence
Moreover, the fact this revision hasn't been made and YET DarkLK had always been in vs threads related to Umineko (mostly Bern cause...Bern) with, and again, nothing but fanmade charts.

I know Azzy is busy with his life. But DarkLK has no excuses whatsoever. He participates in vs threads where he openly states many thing the Umineko profile lacks, with the only seemingly evidence given to us is the fanmade charts

And what do we get when people ask for scans? It's better to wait for Azzy to get and be done with the revision...And the revision never came and Azzy is still busy. And even when we just ask for scans ONLY. We never seem to get any notable scans that shows the connection between WtC and its ficional works. Or the hierarchical system (Not the fanmade chart but scans)

Additionally, many whom were skeptical of Umineko tierings weren't treated nicely. This user for exemple, had been warned by Ant himself for "annoying" DarkLK, on the basis that he's "trolling". When the user is asking nothing but scans, all he gets is answers (without scans) and a warning. HOW IS THAT FAIR?

I had just voiced (and even ranted on this) in chat. I am not asking for a big thing. Just one thing. Scans

Edit: I am sorry if this seems like an insult towards anyone. It's just that this being bothering me a lot. A lot of verses with 1-As get questioned and don't get immediatly accepted until hard evidence was shown. Meanwhile, Umineko just need a few flowery words from an admin and boom it's 1-A
 
Kepekley highlighted the thread. Not me.
 
I don't think we should be endlessly waiting for Godot. Someone else should take the reigns for revisions. Much like A6colute was unable to ever properly revise I/O, and the Verse ended being taken over by Iapetus who did an excellent job with it, someone else should claim the reigns for When They Cry.

Someone who is more active, more willing to make detailed blogs or at least threads listing the evidence, who will bring up scans, and who will not always resort to Fanon explanations with a side of appeal to authority.
 
Basically TheMightyRegulator was revising the Umineko pages with help from DarkLK, but then suddenly disappeared in the middle of it.

DarkLK is picky about who he trusts to handle the revision, as it has to be somebody who properly understands the concepts that he describes.

He has also repeatedly told me that he wants Azathoth to handle it soon, but the latter never finds the time to do so.

Perhaps Sera would be willing to collaborate with him about it instead via private discussions?
 
@Antvasima

Please stop buying into this "Umineko requires PhD in Philosophy levels of intellect to properly understand and no one but I has the high cultured and thoughtful mind to understand it!" narrative that is perpetuated whenever anyone disagrees with DarkLK about Umineko. This is part of the current problem.

A lot of this is frankly arrogance and dishonesty.

I trust Promestein far more than DarkLK with When They Cry, for example.
 
Azathoth is busy with real life issues and isn't able to revise the verse. And I highlighted it, not Sera. Please don't silence opinions.
 
No one gets to simply "choose" who does a revision. So long as they have proper evidence and knowledge of the verse they should be allowed to do so. I can't revise Umineko if I'm revising Marvel. Azzy seems to be very busy, and 7-8 months is still a long time.

Plus, these revisions go back into 2017 when after Mighty tried to revise it, Ven picked it up for him, but then he ended up leaving too.

None of this changes the fact that Umineko characters are being treated as way stronger than they are listed on file in versus threads, which is not deemed acceptable for any other verse.
 
@Matthew

Well, then maybe Promestein and Sera could talk with DarkLK instead, and start revising our pages? That would be appreciated.

However, starting to highlight discussions that will only lead to chaos, conflict, and rushed decisions, is not a good idea at all.

I would appreciate if you stop highlighting this, we could quickly calm down this situation, close the thread, and knowledgeable members could simply start talking with DarkLK about it instead.
 
Antvasima said:
DarkLK is picky about who he trusts to handle the revision, as it has to be somebody who properly understands the concepts that he describes.
Click to expand...
I'll be blunt Ant. The choice isn't up to DarkLK.

Revisions are done by people who are willing to discuss ratings. There is no "I don't think that you can handle the revisions".

Worst case scenario there is "you make a revision with evidence, I bring up counterevidence, and it ends up being rejected"
 
>DarkLK is picky about who he trusts to handle the revision, as it has to be somebody who properly understands the concepts that he describes.

He has also repeatedly told me that he wants Azathoth to handle it soon, but the latter never finds the time to do so.

Sorry but i don't think i'll accept this as an answer. DarkLK, for all his position, is not different from us. I had to show several scans about Masada to prove many things about them (conceptual nature, transcendence, ect). I had made the Demonbane revision and it's finished (with the only finishing touches being editing 3 profiles). And i made sure to have it as soon as possible with scans.

Is it too much to ask for scans? If DarkLK is true to his words about Umineko, he wouldn't have any hard time in this thread by showing us evidence right?

And said evidence needs to be agreed on by the majority. This is what is bothering me the most. We accept the words of someone who just post stuff with fanmade charts and few legit evidence that makes his words a truth. Why? Only because of his position

I know you trust DarkLK on this matter, but i'll be saying right now that i can't trust DarkLK on any Umineko matter unless he gives me the evidence
 
@Kaltias

Well, DarkLK has thoroughly investigated the series and knows it inside and out, but I would appreciate if some other staff member who knows the series well would be willing to collaborate with him.

It is unfair to blame DarkLK for the revisions taking time though. He has been willing to collaborate with somebody knowledgeable for a long time now. Azathoth has simply constantly pushed it forward in time.
 
Ant, I gotta say I agree with the sentiment of the others that we can't treat this verse as if it's DarkLK's domain and his alone. He may be knowledgeable, but that doesn't mean that we can accept his word without any further backing or explanation, a conundrum not helped by his stinginess about releasing information and explanations to general users. As matt said, take the I/O revisions. We didn't just not do them because A6 didn't want to, Iap took them over and provided evidence.
 
Then why does he participate in vs threads about Umineko if the profiles are still under revision? Shouldn't he, instead of focusing on these threads, focus on the content revision thread itself?

DarkLK words aren't absolute. Neither is anyone here. If DarkLK is truly "willing" to cooperate. I am pretty sure a content revision could be made right now and have the verse discused thoroughly.
 
While this thread in particular isn't gonna actually go in the direction of revisions, banning the topic entirely just because people are taking a while isn't the way to go. Worse comes to worst, they can revise it back to their visions when they're ready. That is no fault of them, they aren't bad people for just not having time, but we can't just alter the rules of this sort of thing due to their status.
 
@ALRF

Well, from what I recall DarkLK created long explanation pages filled with evidence from scans in the ACF wiki.

If you, Sera, and Promestein wish to collaborate with him that is very appreciated. I just don't like this sudden tendency to accuse him for things that are not his fault, as he has been very willing to provide evidence if it is somebody that he trusts who he is talking with, such as TheMightyRegulator or Azathoth.
 
We aren't derailing PaChi. Btw I strongly agree with ALRF. That's the real issue here rather than the revisions taking too long.
 
as he has been very willing to provide evidence if it is somebody that he trusts who he is talking with, such as TheMightyRegulator or Azathoth.

The problem starts with this notion. Because apparently When They Cry is so complex DarkLK only shares scans and evidence with a select few who possess high russian IQ and are capable of comprehending such an intricate network of philosophical concepts.
 
@Ant

I honestly think DarkLK is not needed for the revisions to happen. We can have another group make the revisions and after they post their evidence DarkLK will be able to give his counterevidence or simply agree with it.
 
@All

I am just saying that people who are knowledgeable about Umineko should extensively consult with DarkLK, as he genuinely is very knowledgeable and has access to lots of scans. He is just not comfortable conversing about complex topics in English, as he is not so skilled in the language. Sera knows Russian, so she would be ideal to talk with him about it.
 
Antvasima said:
@ALRF

Well, from what I recall DarkLK created long explanation pages filled with evidence from scans in the ACF wiki.
Click to expand...
Yes but we need the evidence here. Not in the ACF wiki
 
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