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Problem with current Smash Bros stats (mostly involving Master Hand)

DetectiVE899

DetectiVE899

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I wasn't going to show this blog because I thought it would be the second time I have linked one of my own blogs to this website but I decided to do it anyway. I love Super Smash Bros, but I have a lot of problems with the verses stats.

If you want a brief summary, I believe there is not enough evidence (other than vague statements that are mostly hyperbole) to prove that Master Hand is universal. I go on to discuss how strong I think Super Smash Bros is, however, I don't claim that is completely accurate (aka the MHS KE 100 Ton Kirby thing is probably right)

https://cinzero-fall2112.deviantart.com/journal/How-strong-is-Smash-Bros-751172654
 
Too many thing show Master Hand to be Univers+:

-Superior to Smash version of Creation Trio, who has their trophies with univers+ statement

-Embobidment of Creation, when Crazy Hand is the one of Destruction

-Create and ruled everything in Smash, even the intro of SMB 64 is enough for this.

Why thing you said don't contradict this:

-Sonic is a walking plothole who appear from nowhere

-Subspace and World of Trophies are clearly different space. Subspace isn't in World of Trophies and Tabuu can't go outside Subspace because of being it's embodidment.
 
I don't see any of this, really.

"Superior to the Smash version of the Creation Trio"

I don't agree with this statement at all. Trophy descriptions don't really mean all that much since they usually specify the version of the character they mean, the Creation Trio trophies in both Smash 4 and Brawl list these characters as the Sinnoh versions of the characters (Sinnoh doesn't exist in Smash world, no reason to believe it does). Master Hand doesn't own the trophies either, the player is the one who collects them. I don't see a reason to believe otherwise. And for proof of what I mean by "the trophy version of the character isn't necessarily the smash version" let's have a look at Melee's trophies.

Mario and smash mario
The first one talks about Mario (which is credited to the game he first appeared in) outside of Smash while the second one talks about Mario in Smash crediting him to Smash.

"Embodiment of creation and embodiment of destruction" This statement is way too vague to be used, you could call someone like a boxer "the embodiment of pain" and it wouldn't mean they've created and control pain. Calling something the "embodiment" of something doesn't mean they are that thing exactly. It's way too vague. Plus, if we're assuming that Master Hand is the "embodiment" of creation means he created everything then that means Crazy Hand destroyed everything, which, doesn't make sense since the universe is still there. Keep in mind that the "embodiment of creation" isn't even the quote, it's "source of creation" in the US and "personifies creation" in the EU, showing that it doesn't even mean that much to begin with (both of them are translated from Japanese, so it would probably be better to find the original source is what I'm saying.) Source of creation could just mean he creates a lot of things.

"Create and ruled everything in Smash, even the intro of SMB 64 is enough for this."

Except for Tabuu and Subspace which are part of the Smash universe but ok. Also, there was already a room (or a universe) before Master Hand brings everything to life in the intro of 64, there's not really any proof he did anything other than transforming the space. The rest of the "proof" that Master Hand is universal is vague statements that don't mean much.

"Sonic is a walking plothole who appear from nowhere"

Which kinda brings up a problem with the next statement.

"-Subspace and World of Trophies are clearly different space. Subspace isn't in World of Trophies and Tabuu can't go outside Subspace because of being it's embodiment."

Again, being called the "embodiment of pain" doesn't mean you can't leave pain or something stupid like that. But yes, Sakurai did say that Tabuu can't leave Subspace and whatever, but that's extremely inconsistent, let me just quote the Smash Bros wiki for a moment.

"Presumably, one cannot pass from Subspace to the real world (or vice versa) if there are no rifts. This, however, brings up multiple plot holes.

  • No rifts are known to have existed before the story begins. This raises the question of how Tabuu was able to bring Master Hand into Subspace to begin the story, or how he was able to mobilize the Army from Subspace onto the Isle of Ancients.
  • It is unclear how Dedede learned of Tabuu's nature and Off Waves, given that he would have to enter Subspace to do so (as Tabuu cannot leave Subspace).
  • It is never stated or shown how Sonic ended up in Subspace in the first place.
  • It is unclear how the Smashers managed to escape Subspace after Tabuu's defeat, as all the rifts that can be traveled through had been closed."
There. That p much shows it.

The page also says "the universe ends when he's beaten" or something along these lines, however, I don't know where that comes from. Considering that the universe is there with the same locations shown a lot of the time in previous games or that Tabuu beats Master Hand on camera and the universe doesn't stop working and whatever.
 
Legitimately disappointing to see people ignore this thread, and dance around the solid evidence and simply tell him to just "Read the description", providing feats and statements that are blatantly false.

I support the changes, it's honestly been a long time coming.
 
I concur with Warpy. The fact that the current Smash profiles are so full of wank that relies on vague statements is almost embarrassing.

If any mods see this thread, I believe they should highlight it in order to get some actual discussion going instead of people parroting the contents of the profiles.
 
Not sure where you got that Subspace is part of the Smash world. Nothing ever hints at that, quite the contrary.

"Born in a vastly foreign realm, he also possesses great leadership powers."

"The ruler of Subspace and master of operations. Tabuu controls Master Hand with chains of light to excise this world and build up his great maze."

"A weapon that, when it explodes, draws every part of this world within its blast range into Subspace."

You'd need pretty beefy arguments to prove the opposite.

Also the fact that the Melee trophies talk about a character's abilities in-game in another Trophy does not "prove" that the entire series makes a distinction between the original version and the Smash version, especially since games post-Melee drop that distinction.

Also stating that the original locations from the original games does not exist is flawed as well, given that 90% of the fight take place in the original locations as well. And most character interactions imply that they have lived through their original series as well (Most notable with Snake and Pit). The idea that Smash makes a difference between the original and Smash versions honestly comes out of nowhere.
 
Somebody should preferably inform Dino Ranger Black about this thread. He is the Mario expert.
 
Ye but we're talking about Smash Bros. here, Ant. Mario is just being used as an example of how Smash treats its characters.
 
Okay.
 
@Saik. Also Fox. The characters also seem to have their relationships similar. In SSE, Mario or Link get pissed when they think the other has killed Peach or Zelda, King Dedede has his moments with Kirby, Link and Zelda are the ones who together revive Ganon against the common enemy, and Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong as a whole. Even in Melee, Luigi asks Mario in an event when did Bowser get so big when the latter starts off giant.
 
Gotta love Smash implying that Bowser's size doesn't literally vary with his mood.

Legit, both the argument that Smash and the Original versions are separate and that Subspace and the World of Trophy are the same seems like things you'd need to prove in the first place, not just disbelieve and then ask proofs of it.
 
Yeah agreeing with Saik and Cal on this one.

You need to prove your positive instead of just disbelieving the negative.

In addition, I don't see why we're trying to bring the "they're different" argument to the likes of the CT when clearly they arent the same through tier alone. Smash CT are Low 2-C because of their trophies. The canon original CT are 2-B.
 
Yeah I'm agreeing with Prof, Cal, and Saik as well. The burden of proof is on you to prove your claim that the dimensions aren't separate.
 
Is the dimensions being separate actually a vital part of the post? Right after OP talked about whether they're separate dimensions or not, they said "Even then..." then described why even if they are in the separate universes that doesn't mean that Master Hand is universal.

@Professor How are you agreeing with Saikou and Cal when they're saying that Smash and Original characters are the same, but you also think that they're different?
 
@Agnaa

Im fairly certain their arguments above don't relate to the tiering of the Smash versions vs their canon versions, otherwise Tabuu and Master Hand would have long been above Low 2-C here for a while now.
 
Then why are they arguing about whether Smash versions are the same as their canon versions in a revision thread about Smash's stats?

If they're not arguing about the stats then it's just semantic derailing.
 
I'll agree with Saikou and Cal for now at least.
 
I don't think Saikou and Cal are wrong, but I can't see the relevance of what they're saying to how strong Smash characters are.
 
Agnaa said:
I don't think Saikou and Cal are wrong, but I can't see the relevance of what they're saying to how strong Smash characters are.
Click to expand...
One of the arguments used to disprove the ratings was that the trophies not necessarily talked about the smash version of the characters, so MH could not scale to the Creation Trio.
 
Wait wait.

Just so im getting the correct picture here, your saying Cal and Saikou actually disagree with Low 2-C MH and Tabuu or do you mean something else entirely?
 
On the contrary, I believe. They disagree with the downgrade, as the OP hasn't proved anything, and the argument about the trophies is a bit null'd.

...I think ovo
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
Legit, both the argument that Smash and the Original versions are separate and that Subspace and the World of Trophy are the same seems like things you'd need to prove in the first place, not just disbelieve and then ask proofs of it.
Click to expand...
Indeed.
 
One of the arguments used to disprove the ratings was that the trophies not necessarily talked about the smash version of the characters, so MH could not scale to the Creation Trio.

MH already doesn't scale to the canon Creation Trio, as Professor stated above.

And even if MH did, OP still provided a whole paragraph of other reasons as to why MH should be downgraded, these would need to be addressed as well, solely scaling MH to the canon creation trio for its rating would be pretty dubious.
 
Was not talking about the canon, but the ones described in the trophies.
 
You said "One of the arguments used to disprove the ratings was that the trophies not necessarily talked about the smash version of the characters, so MH could not scale to the Creation Trio."

I'm not sure what exactly you could be talking about if not smash version vs canon version.
 
Scale to the things described in the trophies, assuming they are describing a different CT existing especifically in Smash.

English may not be my first language, but come on, I'm not that hard to understand. I hope. ovo
 
Oh I see.

It was just confusing because this entire thread they were talking about canon vs smash version, which I said was irrelevant, to which you responded with that quote.

Still, what you're saying (smash trophy vs smash character) does have relevance, but what Cal/Saikou said (canon character vs smash character) doesn't seem to.

Also, I still think the other arguments brought up in the OP may have some merit. It's not just "The trophies are different to the characters shown so MH isn't Low 2-C".

And the OP did give reasons why they believe subspace and trophies aren't different universes, they didn't just "disbeliev eand then ask for proofs" like Saikou and Arbitrary asserted.
 
What I'm saying is exactly what Saikou and Cal are arguing, tho. Or at least, that's what I understood.

To the other things, I'm neutral.
 
If you're talking about trophy vs character, and talking about the same thing they are, then why are they mentioning how the smash characters act like the canon versions?
 
I would like to point out that like Agnaa said, people seem to be talking about problems that don't have a lot of relevance to the main point (even though, the quotes that were posted don't really prove much since you can call anything a "vastly different realm" really). Also saying that "the distinction of Smash and normal trophies for characters is incorrect as I will show here.
Pikachu and pikachu volt tackle


In Smash 4, it just lists nothing under these Final Smash trophies. Meaning that it never lists the specific Smash trophies as their specific series. And saying "the canon character and smash character are exactly the same" are blatantly untrue. Pokemon Trainer had to catch all of his three Pokemon so it's clearly not the same as the one Red and Blue firstly. Secondly, Peach has never been shown being able to knock people out by dancing (or whatever her final smash from Brawl and 4 is). And lots of Final Smashes do abilities characters have never shown. We've also never seen Doctor Mario use his pills as weapons, Mario using a cape to reflect things, Ganon doing any of his moveset and much more.

This website even has Smash Kirby different from normal Kirby. So I'm not sure why we're having an argument about if the Smash versions of the characters are different. Because they very, very much are.

Oh yeah, Pit referenced Smash in Kid Icarus Uprising I suppose. But Palutena was in Brawl and she had no idea what he was talking about so uh... Not sure you can use that either. But like, like Agnaa has been saying, the main point I'm trying to make is that Master Hand isn't universal. not if the characters and canon are the same.

https://cinzero-fall2112.deviantart.com/journal/How-strong-is-Smash-Bros-751172654

This is my full explanation on why I think Master Hand isn't universal, and as Agnaa pointed out, it mentions that even if they were separate dimensions (which I doubt anyway since people can just cross in and out of it easily despite what Sakurai says) that it still doesn't discount the proof that Master Hand isn't universal.

Thanks for highlighting this!
 
Something I think is very important about the canon characters being different from the smash characters, is that Master Hand isn't 2-B. The canon creation trio is 2-B. MH only scales to a non-canon version of the CT with simply Low 2-C statements.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
Also stating that the original locations from the original games does not exist is flawed as well, given that 90% of the fight take place in the original locations as well. And most character interactions imply that they have lived through their original series as well (Most notable with Snake and Pit). The idea that Smash makes a difference between the original and Smash versions honestly comes out of nowhere.
Click to expand...
I'm siding with Saikou. Not to mention that in Melee, the Adventure mode shows that the various locations from the various games is all part of the Smash universe created by Master Hand, while Final Destination is "Domain of Master Hand", we could say.
 
Final Destination is supposed to be at least analagous to our own universe. I don't think the statements of Master Hand embodying creation, personifying creation, and being the spirit of creation are just worthless whenever they're so consistent. It's evidently intended that he created everything, and Crazy Hand is all things equally and oppositely destroyed. There are many trophies with Low 2-C statements, even ones that directly appear in game. Count Bleck, the Creation Trio, the Devil, it's pretty consistent for Master Hand to be that powerful, if not stronger.
 
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