• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Big Pokémon Revisions Part 2

The_real_cal_howard

Read my comic
VS Battles
Retired
40,457
12,924
So, we all kinda know that this wasn't finished, and the old thread was long, we weren't getting notifications anymore, not everything was summarized in the OP because new information showed up, and it shouldn't get a highlight, unlike this one. I'll summarize what went on in that old thread, minus the things that weren't accepted, and some things that I thought of since. If it's a new item, it'll be marked with an asterisk.

Babies

  • High 8-C (low end) and HHS (reeeeally high end). Cleffa can react to meteors and survive the crash of one, which I calculated in the first thread to be Large Building level (using a weight of 40 kg)
Basic Forms

  • AP would be scaled to Rhyhorn being capable of shattering skyscrapers, and Aiden calculated violently fragmenting them to be Low 7-C.
  • Speed would be MHS+ (that of lightning). There's enough proof for Pokémon electricity being actual lightning, and dodging attacks from the likes of Magnemite, Pikachu, Electrike, and Elekid, not to mention the incredibly fodder tier electric move Thundershock, should qualify them there.
Adolescent Forms

  • Low 7-B and Sub-Relativistic. Seismic Toss got accepted for the users on this level. Also, note how I said adolescent forms instead of 2nd Stage Pokémon. That's because I believed it wasn't smart of me to separate any of the Fully Evolved Pokémon (except for those like Raticate and Bibarel. Those go on the above levels, because they're...not strong). There's no difference between, for example, a Marowak and a Vileplume in potential power.
  • Those who only have two forms would just skip the gap. The only ones we'd have to pick and choose for are those who don't evolve at all, which either go here or what's following.*
Full Evolved

  • It wasn't pleasant to do, and we need to decide on ends to use, or which ones are even acceptable.
  • Still needs to be calced (That could be of this level, anyway) include...
    • Tyranitar's mountain destruction was calced, but the power needed to do that only by the earthquakes by your walking wasn't.*
    • Kingdra. How it yawning creates spiraling ocean currents and giant whirlpools by doing either that or by moving. (What are Gen II Pokémon drinking?!)*
    • Dugtrio creating large earthquakes by digging from 60 miles underground.*
    • The anime storm feats from a while back.
  • A speed thing as well. We were discussing Solar Beam before, but when I was looking through Gigalith's feats, I wondered how the heck didn't we didn't give this thing SoL attack speed. Almost every other Pokédex entry discusses how it absorbs and fires solar rays, and it even goes as far to say that it can't fire when there's little sunlight, such as during rainy days or at night. Why this is important for other Pokémon comparable to Gigalith is because the thing only has one attack that would fit the bill for this. Power Gem. Its description says that it's a ray of light, and Gigalith's only special move, unless you count Mud-Slap (and let's be honest, no one does). Gigalith's not the only one to learn Power Gem, which is why this is important. It's also learned by a few other Pokémon who use things involving lightspeed, such as Ampharos, Starmie, and most notably, Necrozma. Plus, this gives more validation to Solar Beam. Heck, there's still Flash, and the presumably relativistic Ion Deluge.*
Legends

  • Mega Lati@s should be High 6-A (no prefix) from surviving a combined attack from the Primals.
  • Dark Matter...kinda has no reason to be a glass cannon, as it has the same feat as literally every other pocket dimension creator scaled to their pocket dimension, but they have equal durability to their AP. And it can The reason this matters is because a handful of Legendaries do hinder him quite notably. And all of the Legendaries that do have one thing in common: they're all exclusively the Pokémon in 5-B. Mewtwo, Mega Rayquaza, and Deoxys hold back its influence. Xerneas, the Tree of Life, is a pain in the butt for Dark Matter to put down, and that's a major plot point. Yveltal attacks Dark Matter, causing it to cry out in pain. But most notably is Mew, who led an attack on it in the past, causing it to become inert for a while, and defeats it in the present, as Mew is your partner who reincarnated itself in the future (voluntarily mind wiping itself) to stop Dark Matter when it emerges again.*
  • While on that subject, Dark Matter can fire MFTL+ beams, which are reacted to (but not evaded) by Deoxys, Celebi, and Jirachi, which would scale to pretty much all Legends if deemed as legit.*
  • Admittedly, the final two are...ambitious, to say he least. Only one that without a doubt needs to change for that is Dark Matter's durability. Everything else, not so much. I wouldn't even mind if we brought back the SMD key.
 
I admitedly don't know that much about pokemon, but why can't we scale Dark Matter to MewTwo, Deoxys etc.

I agree with everything else btw.
 
Unless every pokemon ever is now 4-A Dark Matter stays like that as he was damaged by only 5-B. And dark matter wasn't exerting any force on Deoxys or Rayquaza in attempting to stop the tree , he was busy and the feat and pushing it back was only 5-B. In fact it could be argued it was merely a side effect, and the tree of life is only 5-A .
 
Holy crap the backlog.

Hope you get around getting this accepted soon enough, that's a lot of stuff to change and a lot of work.

I support everything here, but if you don't mind, where was it stated or implied the thunderbolts released by Electric-types are as fast as the real deal?
 
Wew Cal. Gonna camp out here for the comments to see how further Eli ends up getting stomped.
 
Honestly very iffy on Low 7-C Basic forms (I'll leave that be). But other than that I agree.
 
Kingdra being only Town-level is ludicrous when it's one of the strongest non-pseudo Dragon-types.
 
Kepekley23 said:
Holy crap the backlog.
Hope you get around getting this accepted soon enough, that's a lot of stuff to change and a lot of work.

I support everything here, but if you don't mind, where was it stated or implied the thunderbolts released by Electric-types are as fast as the real deal?
Any electric based attacks that are comparable to a lightning bolt irl or stronger then one, we tend to accept as MHS+.
 
Agree with most things, i think the fully ones should be 6-C and i'm not sure about the Mega Latias, SOL Speeds and Dark Matter stuff.
 
Cal ta gotta prive dark matter and his ap scales to other Pokemon because as it is he has been harmed by a 5-A (5-B being a placeholder untill ya calc it) becayse Deoxys and Rayquaza don't scale to him. Never fought him and stopping the tree is not 4, it was launched out of orbit as a side effect of the tree dying , not because dark matter exerted force upon it. And the tree is merely 5-A for keeping earth in rotation , dark matter had trouble draining it for a number of reasons but he succeeded anyway .

Only thing ya can argue really is mew scaling , but mew won with an entire army and not because of their power .
 
Mega Latias should not scale to all the other leggendaries, unless it fought with other leggendaries.
 
I mean, even though we don't like said movie. The Hoopa movie is a thing. Ignoring said Creation Trio stuff of course. And in ORAS, the player canonically obtains Latios or Latias. As such they do face said legends in that game.
 
Im fine with tier 6 final forms but not using the mountain values cal is using , as i already told him why .

Latios being tier whatever if he actually tanked an attack .
 
In the Hoopa movie most leggendaries fights Dialga or Mega Rayquaza, which messes the scaling. We do not know if they really used these leggendaries against the trainers or leggendaries in the canon setting.
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
Honestly very iffy on Low 7-C Basic forms (I'll leave that be). But other than that I agree.
Same. Leveling a skyscrapper should be High 8-C to 8-A at most unless violent fragmentation is shown / stated.
 
Have we ever thought of just sitting down and evaluating said movie to see what legends scale to what? Not everything is PIS. Something has to be scalable there.
 
I also like to point out not just Ash, but his Pikachu as well in Sun and Moon anime (Episode 51) can lift a Cosmeom (the densest to exist as of now (999.9 kg)). Class 1 Pikachu confirmed?
 
The Delibird, Alakzam, Dragonite and Kyogre feats shouldn't use in my opinion due to either those being trained or, well, anime (except for legendaries) shouldn't be used for scaling to game IMO, due to inconsistency.

About Fully evolved, being anything higher than 6-C/High 6-C is a iffy range for me, specially if mid stage is just Low 7-B. I know they are stronger, but that's just ridiculous.

SoL for fully evolved is fine for me, and the rest too.


(Also I supported Saikou's calc for 5-B Guzzlord)
 
From Rhyhorn Pokédex:

Strong, but not too bright, this POKéMON can shatter even a skyscraper with its charging TACKLES.

Its body is clad in a thick hide, and its tackles topple buildings. Unfortunately, it is not smart.

Strong, but not too bright, this Pokémon can shatter even a skyscraper with its charging Tackles.

So, Rhyhorn does not oneshot the skyscraper, not even violent fragmentation.
 
TheJ-ManRequiem said:
The dimension is destroyed upon his defeat. It's the same as every other creator. Arguments about glass canon status doesn't work. I don't mind if you find it an outlier, but durability definitely needs to be upgraded.
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
Something has to be scalable there.
Probably not from the Hoopa movie, as there is a major clash with most leggendaries, even with the at least 2-C ones.
 
Dark649 said:
Dragonmasterxyz said:
Something has to be scalable there.
Probably not from the Hoopa movie, as there is a major clash with most leggendaries, even with the at least 2-C ones.
Why can we not just ignore the obvious 2-C ones and focus of the Tier 6 Legends?
 
I realized that Rhyhorn destroyed the skyscraper with its tackles, not with just one.
 
Well, the SMD protagonists are able to resist Dark Matter attacks, and I'm pretty sure they are able to hurt each other so they should be 4-A in AP.
 
Yeah so what cal, he can be hurt by characters far weaker than him. Consistently.

Either prove the other scale to him in ap or he is contiously harmed by tier 5 and others , the fimension being destroyed only scales to his ap as he kinda permanetly died right before and didnt tank it .
 
Same. Leveling a skyscrapper should be High 8-C to 8-A at most unless violent fragmentation is shown / stated.

I'm okay with that. Onix has an 8-A feat anyway, iirc, and we can use the Earth Power calcs there.
 
i agree with 4-A durability for dark matter, the only counter argument is that yveltal damage it, but we have seen no feat from that yveltal and xearneas feat is very casual, so they may as swell be 4-A too, but then again in the scene before dark matter stomped arceus, so it's likely to be PIS
 
Not quite , xerneas never showed anything above 5-A, nobody in the game did. And Yveltal got beat by a weaker protagonist, litterally no one scales to dark matter and dark matter has been on multiple occasions by planet tier Pokemon .
 
Back
Top