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Z Vs Yang Qi (Strongest Non-Smurf Low 1-C)
- Thread starter Bobsican
- Start date
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Z gettin' a lot of attention despite not being the top tier of the verse. I mean, I get why as he is a very haxxed character.
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Specifically Alpha, as he's explicitly stated to be stronger than Alvis (and he's the one that defeated Z to begin with; OG Alvis has multiple people comparable to him in AP afaik, such as Pneuma)
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So uh
TD2
NEP 2
yada yada
what can xenoblade do to those
TD2
NEP 2
yada yada
what can xenoblade do to those
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Hell if I know, this is why I hate super haxxed matchups
I'mma just watch
I'mma just watch
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Am I correct in saying that the TD is in relation to Destiny/Fate if I am reading the profile correctly.
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no it about duality
basically one who has TD 2 is unbound or transcendent of the duality within their verse.
so like someone who is above the duality of life and death makes them immune to life and death by being above it as a whole entirely making them having more immunity than someone who lacks life and death (Type 5 immo)
repeat that on any other duality like existence/nonexistence. Reality/unreality
Etc etc
@Muchacho_mrm should be pinged to explain Yang Qi. although I'm suspicious on what level some of his dualities are majority of it are at 6D level
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I schnee. Then what is the duality for Yang here then?
On another note, how good is Yang's NPI? As in layers n' such.
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NPI can touch Nep type 2.
if you can touch something that doesn't exist even beyond conventional existence and nonexistence anything still bound to existence and nonexistence can be hit.
as he has NEP type 2 on concept etc and can interact with himself he would be by default affect anything that is up to that level of nonexistence
if you can touch something that doesn't exist even beyond conventional existence and nonexistence anything still bound to existence and nonexistence can be hit.
as he has NEP type 2 on concept etc and can interact with himself he would be by default affect anything that is up to that level of nonexistence
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That's not how that works. That just means he can interact with non-existent beings like how Z can erase them. Anywho based on that, Yang is unable to interact with Z due to lacking the needed layers to match Z's Ether Concentration.
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so you're telling me you cannot touch an intangible slime when you can literally touch its abstract its concept and even someone whose existence on concept and abstract is on a level of existence beyond conventional
intangiblity will only save you from being interacted on your physical body or abstract body or whatever it is under conventional existence and nonexistence.
that doesn't stop a person who has NPI on concept that no longer exist on conventional existence and nonexistence from attacking said thing
better yet he can also just disrupt the duality that governs said level of existence and nonexistence to render it null to collapse it as a whole indirectly affecting him
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You don't need to match it to harm Z, he doesn't create the Fog King's ether field and people don't create ether fields to fight Z
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Yes, its called NPI ain't a scaling chain of which one is better and each form of it is a unique use of it. Its why you don't claim stuff like "Oh I can interact with someone with Type 5 Acausality so I can interact with all these other things with no issue despite them being unrelated". Bob even brought this up earlier.
Is this scenario, Yang does not have the layers to match Z and thus doesn't have the means to interact with him. Its really just as simple as that.
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don't really wanna argue with that logic
but it is incorrect to assume something still within the constraint of conventional existence and nonexistence being untouchable to someone who already are capable of interacting with those even outside those constraints.
its like saying you cannot interact with someone who has layered NEP type 1 (which is equated to Incorporeality if you do not meet nonexistence on another aspect) even if you can interact with NEP Type 2.
Any layers you achieve in the constraints of conventional existence and nonexistence are still just NEP Type 1 and will remain inferior to those transcendent to the very notion of existence and nonexistence
but it is incorrect to assume something still within the constraint of conventional existence and nonexistence being untouchable to someone who already are capable of interacting with those even outside those constraints.
its like saying you cannot interact with someone who has layered NEP type 1 (which is equated to Incorporeality if you do not meet nonexistence on another aspect) even if you can interact with NEP Type 2.
Any layers you achieve in the constraints of conventional existence and nonexistence are still just NEP Type 1 and will remain inferior to those transcendent to the very notion of existence and nonexistence
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Not the best example there as those two are directly related to one another which is why its okay to say that if ya can interact with type 2, you can interact with type 1. In this scenario, they're not given it and Ether Concentration are entirely differently abilities. If ya want, I can call some thread mods here as I was told earlier that it was dumb to assume interacting with NEP 2 allows someone to do this when I asked about.
Also responses will be a good bit delayed as I have a family christening to attend.
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Alright i personally asked DT as he is someone who improved and expanded on NEP Standards
and yeah i concede to your point on layered Incorporeality, NPI, etc
and yeah i concede to your point on layered Incorporeality, NPI, etc
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Depends on the context for the type 2.
Thank you, I really appreciate that ya went to the effort to find out.
This MU though is honestly a good bit of a mismatch. Its either both parties can't affect each other or Yang can't interact with Z. I'm probably leaning on incon as I don't know what Yang's type 2 encompasses.
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The context for Yang Qi is that almost everything is encompassed by duality. so yeah no possible interaction here
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Almost? Then what isn't?
Another thing I want to ask before I go for a bit is that is there anything equivalent to Xenoblade's Ether in Sage Monarch?
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things that aren't in his profile abilities are not dualities in the verse. but everything in his profile for both resistance and abilities has dualities as per how duality is explained in the verse written in his TD2 justification
as for Ether I'm not really sure I'm only going for what Muchacho told on the battle between Sora and Yang Qi
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Yang Qi's duality and even DT's duality covers all variations. DT expands on it more and it is more of a Buddhist, Taoist & Chinese sort of variation of dualistic principles, rather than mathematic principles (male, female, life, death, sun, moon, soft, hard, feminine, masculine, dark, light, existence, non-existence, etc). Even before his TD, he had minor TD over good and evil.
In addition to TD, he has NEP (Type 2) on all aspects, including plot.
From what I've gathered, Z can't interact with him.
As for Yang Qi interacting with Z, NPI layers were mentioned for Z. but no elaboration was actually given, nor a CRT. Without a CRT you could have infinite layers of NPI and still fall short of the lowest 6-D God in Sage Monarch.
I won't discuss 'ether' without even knowing what it is.
In addition to TD, he has NEP (Type 2) on all aspects, including plot.
From what I've gathered, Z can't interact with him.
As for Yang Qi interacting with Z, NPI layers were mentioned for Z. but no elaboration was actually given, nor a CRT. Without a CRT you could have infinite layers of NPI and still fall short of the lowest 6-D God in Sage Monarch.
I won't discuss 'ether' without even knowing what it is.
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Those are two wildly different answers on the duality though I'm more inclined to believe Jedi's answer on this.
Okay? Don't know why ya bring up plot here as it is not relevant, its not Z is going to attack him on a narrative level. Though Z can erase beings who lack stuff like information for example.
It depends on the context which was what I was asking for.
Wha, I asked for Yang's NPI layers, not Z's. Xenoblade has this thing called Ether Concentration which is where ether based beings are effectively invulnerable to attacks from those who do not match their Ether Concentration.
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You're welcome to. I am the only verse supporter who has commented in this thread.
Depends if said character was NEP (Type 2), not (Type 1).
You're replying to a post that tells you it is above infinite though. It entirely depends on what it is though, for example NEP/TD layers.
Yang Qi has no Ether. I am assuming it is the verse's energy system? If you did verse equalization and gave it to him, he would have infinite. Technically people levels below him are the ones with infinite power.
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Ah okay. Well this is interesting, Z's layers are unquantifiable as in Xenoblade it scales to size and Z's own scales to characters who are numerous sets of infinity.
Yeah its the verse's energy system but Verse Equalisation with it is...iffy. Mostly because it is an incredibly unique system. It varies greatly from game to game but typically ether is a unique type of "matter" that is the by-product of a higher dimension (ether itself can really just be anything, extending to even concepts, information, etc etc). Its not magic or anything like that but it correlates to everything in Xenoblade (power, abilities, individuals). Funniest thing about it is that ether and non ether matter can't mix. If they do they cancel each other out and this all just scratching the surface with it.
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I see. In Yang Qi's case they reach infinite levels of energy but they're trapped on their plane of existence, regardless of how many worlds they create. In tier 2 terms, it is reaching 2-A, creating 2-A worlds with said infinite energy.
His second key scales off them to the point that the power systems used to measure them isn't relevant at all.
Yeah, I agree, the verse equalization here is uncertain. Sage Monarch has infinite types of energy, rather than the energy themselves, it is more like the abstract nature behind them that determines their interaction.
From what you've described, it seems like a power system. It would be like granting Z cultivation realms to equalize. He would automatically inherit abilities, physiologies, resistances, immunities, etc. There is also the fact that cultivation requires enlightenment, with multiplying and/or increasing your power level not increasing your cultivation. So even if their AP matched, their cultivation realms would necessarily not.
Aside from regular cultivation, the verse has another power system which is will levels. Basically the level of your will power. Similar to a soul, they have a will inside them they can give form to or let it be formless, hence the limited AE in his first key. The will levels are ranked numerically and by names, with Unbounded being infinite:
- Normal.
- Stupendous.
- Destabilizing.
- Terrifying.
- Paramount.
- Unbounded.
- Half-Annulled
- Annulled.
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I schnee I schnee. Very nice.
I schnee, that's pretty different from Ether. Which complicates things.
From what I can understand from this, they can't really affect one another due to their respective defensive haxes which would make this incon. Hilariously enough though, if Yang can interact with Z it would funnily enough lead to a victory for Z given that Yang is unable to put down Z due to his immortalities, regeneration, etc, etc and for some reason Yang only has Superhuman stamina on his profile unlike Z's infinite stamina. This would hilariously mean that according to the profile, Yang would become incapped via stamina over idk how long. Idk if that is a mistake on Yang's profile of somethin' but its funny that it would bite him in the ass.
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There are a lot of things Z doesn't resist from Yang Qi, which gives him options to incap. CM, subjective reality, etc. Weirdly though, Z doesn't resist BFR. Which also makes one of Yang Qi's rarely used ability in a versus match relevant. He can BFR normally and he can also send someone to reincarnate in one of the six paths of reincarnation by manifesting the abstract representation of each Dao.
Yang Qi has immortality type 4 & 8 negation, with Yang Qi being able to hit someone and everything connected to their existence at the same time...But Z seems to resist his immortalities being negated and I never did a layers CRT for Sage Monarch, so I guess he takes that. As for regen, Yang Qi doesn't have HGR negation.
Yang Qi's stamina wasn't updated, it should have after this thread though.
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Huh, this made me realise that Z is missing some resistances, ah well I'll fix that later. Funnily enough though the whole reincarnation thing wouldn't work on Z as he actually has a similar thing with the Flame Clock Cycle which Z explicitly excluded from. Though Z through the use of Origin's Reactive Evolution can gain resistances to stuff like CM, subjective reality and many more (read the note on his profile).
Though this is assuming that ether is being equalised here and that Yang's layers equal or surpass Z's which given what ya told me doesn't appear to be case.
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My bad, didn't notice that note. I looked over said RE abilities and the only things of Yang Qi that aren't listed are:
- Forced Self-Destruction (not really sure if someone should resist this though)
- Size Manipulation (he can reduce things to 1D or a point)
- Subjective Reality (strangely the profile lists it as a category but I can't find the ability)
- Information Analysis (Really useless here)
- Illusion Creation (also useless as Z resists mind manipulation)
- Sense Manipulation (useless here unless Z's pain tolerance is low)
- Chaos Manipulation (useful here but this ability is being revised and won't matter in the future)
- Power Modification (not sure how useful it is changing Z's abilities)
- Curse Manipulation (not sure)
- Power Removal (Z resists power absorption with Yang Qi's other function being able to erase abilities)
- Durability Negation (yeah, Z exploding into gore from a glance or thought from Yang Qi isn't really incap considering his regen and immortalities)
- Energy Manipulation (this is in the same position as power modification and removal as the whole ether bit but if he could interact he can freeze, ignite, etc, Z's energy. Kinda hard to cast abilities if the energy you're using is literally burning)
- Social Influencing (lmao)
I probably missed other abilities or types such as mind sealing. I will check tomorrow.
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I schnee, also yeah some abilities for some reason were missing (like subjective reality was there before but it doesn't really matter much tbh as it is a subset of Reality Warping which is there) but what also should be on Z's resistances are Size, Power Mod among others. Though Power Removal is just a permanent Power Null which Z has and resists, Durability Negation is not actually something you can actually resist as its more of an explanation page than anything, its in the same vein as having a resistance to Social Influencing or Superhuman Characteristics. And Energy manip should be there for his RE.
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The category is there, so it should have been there yeah. As for subjective reality, it can be assumed to be reality warping but you still need resistance, with transduality being the exception. I won't really comment further on the missing resistances but durability negation is something listed on profiles as resistances. Social influencing is based on a lot of factors, but is useless in most cases due to arguments involving intelligence and personality and superhuman characteristics is just physical specs.
I'll reply to this thread tomorrow when I have time after I wake up.
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Yeah, the whole Durability Negation on resistances is mostly from people who don't that it shouldn't be there. I found this out from DarkDragonMedeus when I did this a few years back.
Aight, have a nice one.
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It is something that ignores one or all attributes but it is also depends on what it is. For example, say you have 7B durability, that doesn't necessarily extend to your internal organs which is a valid durability negation feat if a character can directly attack there. Pretty useless if a character's durability extends to their entire being. Yang Qi's version is making people explode and he can also ignite their body and soul, bypassing the need to actually overcome their physical durability. Which is probably an extension of his forced self-destruction ability.
I went through both profiles again today and I don't have anything more to add. Ether seems too complicated but if another supporter of either verses want to add on Ether they're free to. Anyways, Z can't interact with Yang Qi's due to his NEP (Type 2) and Transduality which also BTW extends to r>f and not r>f over 6D.
If Yang Qi could interact with Z, his only options are a handful of offensive abilities missing from Z's profile and the linked RE page, which do not negate HGR or Z's immortalities due to his resistance and layers but could possibly incap. Such as Subjective Reality, Chaos Manipulation, Power Modification, Size Manipulation and Energy Manipulation. His other option for incap being passive AP, as he is infinitely above baseline 6D as previously discussed.
If people want to to vote for either or an incon they can. Although my vote is on incon.
I don't think I have more to add to this thread now.
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Fair nuff, since neither can do much to anything to one another it is just a definitive incon.
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Bobsican
He/Him- 21,646
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- Thread starter
- #38
I recall it was already concluded that paradoxical Reality to Fiction stuff on Yang Qi's part is useless for our purposes and should be ignored.
And durability past a certain point inherently requires the organs to also be about as durable (especially when dealing with infinite AP tiers (High 3-A and above)), I recall the smurf thread overall is agreeing so far that merely hitting weak spots isn't truly ignoring durability too.
I also recall the AP was concluded to just be range, anything else would require a CRT.
Also, don't Xenoblade characters have layered Fate Manip even beyond acausal/"fateless" characters? TD and NEP are limited by NLFs if they haven't shown to ignore stuff on this scale.
And durability past a certain point inherently requires the organs to also be about as durable (especially when dealing with infinite AP tiers (High 3-A and above)), I recall the smurf thread overall is agreeing so far that merely hitting weak spots isn't truly ignoring durability too.
I also recall the AP was concluded to just be range, anything else would require a CRT.
Also, don't Xenoblade characters have layered Fate Manip even beyond acausal/"fateless" characters? TD and NEP are limited by NLFs if they haven't shown to ignore stuff on this scale.
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They do. Its also Probability, Causality, etc etc.
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Perhaps you concluded that but I already told you it part of their transduality, just not usable for actual tiering after it was assumed to be 1-C.
No, it does not. You still need proof/context it scales universally. I mentioned internal organs which is quite literally the first type listed on the P&A page.
Infinite power was already accepted for them, the entire argument was regarding infinite range and hence infinitely above baseline 6D for Yang Qi, which lead ThanatosX to ask DontTalkDT and Ultima_Reality.
I have already talked about this. His acausality type 4 is NEP (Type 2) even without counting his NEP physique or transduality.
