Sora (Kingdom Hearts) VS Yang Qi (Sage Monarch)

[Bobsican]

A match where neither have a wincon can't be added anyways, and I'm also clarifying stuff as it seems this was for the top 10 strongests non-smurfs list, so I'd want to defend Sora's placement.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Oh ok, seems like Sora will never have any battle listed on his profile

 

[Bobsican]

You could try if you go out of SBA and go for something unrelated to combat, that sort of confrontations (say, chess, a sport, doing X thing first) are allowed for profiles too.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Does Sora have any wincons at all here?

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

1: Sora not only has a layered EE resistance, he can also still exist in a cosmological void, he also has innate true flight, so he doesn't need a floor to do stuff either, it's even a plot point once.

Not sure why EE is relevant but him being functional in a void is relevant. Although you would need evidence of him being functional in a void lacking even the void.

2: I'm sure we already went on Yang Qi not having infinite hax layers, namely out of that not being formally accepted by the staff, which is why he was even rated below Xue Ying, as they're baseline at the moment, unless a CRT happened or something on this regard since then?

The only infinite layers users were talking about was Nasuverse. I specifically focused on abilities Sora does not resist.

3: May I remind Sora has at least 27 hax layers on most of his abilities/resistances? This in turns heavily limits what Yang Qi can do.

Even if he had a billion layers, it isn't relevant. The thread focused on abilities he does not resist.

4: Having type 1 CM doesn't mean you can negate High-Godly regeneration, as much having Matter Manipulation doesn't mean you can negate High regen, they're just disruptive abilities at best in this kind of cases and the regen ability just restores the character back to normal anyways, it seems @ThanatosX already went on how permanent incaps were also covered by the High-Godly type 8.

Did anyone mention CM 1 negating HGR? Also ThanatosX and I have already discussed permanent incaps and it made this match a stomp.

5: I must remind that Law Manip isn't inherently above layered type 1 CM and type 2 info manip, even while Yang Qi also has those abilities, they're on a baseline degree as far current consensus goes, unlike Sora's, so I'm iffy on that allowing to practically "negate" anything from him.

Law Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation, Plot Manipulation, it entirely depends on the verse to decide its potency/hierarchy, which isn't relevant in this case considering Sora does not resist law manipulation.

This is wrong, it's the other way around, anyone capable of either suppressing (aka, nullifying) the source of the ability or suppressing/resisting the result would be unaffected in this kind of cases, rather than someone having to resist both to not be affected.

I don't know how that helps your case considering they've explicitly said it depends on the source and application, giving the example that resisting mind manipulation through electricity manipulation doesn't grant mind resistance to psychics.

• Resisting mind manipulation applied through electrical signals hijacking the brain, would give the profile "Resistance to Mind Manipulation", which only works on mind manip applied through electrical signals. They wouldn't resist their body being shocked electrically, or their mind being manipulated with psionic powers.

So yes, the source matters even if you resist the effect.

8: The Final World isn't a normal "universe" or something like that, it's a space that exists right outside the deepest dreams of everyone's hearts, so I doubt Yang Qi can directly reach it as he'd have to go into a deep slumber while also applying KH verse semantics to his being, which would involve applying too much verse equalization (which I'd oppose) to work as him trying to do that is like trying to get into a system without being a part of that system to begin with.

The hell of nightmares is a thing in the series. There also exists dream domains. Even interacting with their personal domains would be enough considering it is a thought world. If you wanna get into paradoxical states then nevasaññānāsaññāyatana exist. You're assuming he needs to go to sleep.

Edit: Oh, another abstract world of thought to mention is their sea of consciousness. It is a mental dimension in-between their brow which houses their metaphysical aspects and whatever they want, for example Yang Qi has a golden imp living there rent free.

 

[Bobsican]

Not sure why EE is relevant but him being functional in a void is relevant. Although you would need evidence of him being functional in a void lacking even the void.

Oh, nevermind, namely out of:

SBA means it takes place in Central Park, New York City. Meaning once the match starts, Yang Qi would have already passively destroyed the universe because it can't contain him. Making the battlefield probably a void which is probably further destroyed (dude's voice can destroy laws, voids, etc). This also affects Sora considering he is baseline, meaning he gets passive AP stomped.

It seems this is just raw AP then, so I'd have to disagree even further as the discussion in this thread already concluded both would just have the same AP as far I'm looking.

The only infinite layers users were talking about was Nasuverse. I specifically focused on abilities Sora does not resist.

Okay then.

Even if he had a billion layers, it isn't relevant. The thread focused on abilities he does not resist.

Which isn't the only factor by far on if an ability is practically usable or not.

Did anyone mention CM 1 negating HGR? Also ThanatosX and I have already discussed permanent incaps and it made this match a stomp.

Oh, nevermind, misread a posted bit, but...

Yang Qi has immortality type 8 negation, just not up-to HGR. Chaos Manipulation is permanent incap as he doesn't resist it. Even Law Manipulation can be incap if Yang Qi modifies the laws of life and death for Sora. The subjective reality is overlaying reality, negating everything with their own personal imagination. For example Ghost Emperor Yama's ideal world is this hellscape. Within this subjective reality what they think happens. Which Sora doesn't resist.

I don't know how that helps your case considering they've explicitly said it depends on the source and application, giving the example that resisting mind manipulation through electricity manipulation doesn't grant mind resistance to psychics.

• Resisting mind manipulation applied through electrical signals hijacking the brain, would give the profile "Resistance to Mind Manipulation", which only works on mind manip applied through electrical signals. They wouldn't resist their body being shocked electrically, or their mind being manipulated with psionic powers.

So yes, the source matters even if you resist the effect.

Chaos Manip is basically nothing on its own (even being agreed on for deletion site-wide), like Reality Warping, the "effect" is what'd have to be resisted, rather than treating it like a fundamental aspect to specifically handle, Law Manip is covered below, and Subjective Reality is just Reality Warping from imagination, meaning that it's not a fundamental force of sorts either and only the effect matters. Assuming that he can do "anything" would also be a NLF, BTW, which is why we index all that a character has been shown to do with RW and the like.

Law Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation, Plot Manipulation, it entirely depends on the verse to decide its potency/hierarchy, which isn't relevant in this case considering Sora does not resist law manipulation.

Actually, laws are below concepts in KH if we want to get there, the source for law manip on nearly all characters in the series are sustained by concept manip, and characters can seemingly resist law manip with their concept resistance.

The hell of nightmares is a thing in the series. There also exists dream domains. Even interacting with their personal domains would be enough considering it is a thought world. If you wanna get into paradoxical states then nevasaññānāsaññāyatana exist. You're assuming he needs to go to sleep.

Edit: Oh, another abstract world of thought to mention is their sea of consciousness. It is a mental dimension in-between their brow which houses their metaphysical aspects and whatever they want, for example Yang Qi has a golden imp living there rent free.

Well, the thing is that the Final World isn't just a place outside dreams, it's also the most qualitatively inferior dream layer, which'd put it several dreams within dreams below.

I sure expected you'd bring transduality stuff here, and to that I say NLF as it's basically making up new powers here, on that matter I assume the sleep stuff as that's how most characters reach it, the other one is Immersion, which he doesn't have looking at the profile.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Chaos manipulation is a misunderstood ability and should be expanded on rather than deleted as it has actual usage the wiki simply failed to properly define it in a way that it is usable at all.

although if we are using chaos manipulation in this debate said effect should be according to what was shown in the franchise
simply saying its chaotic
everything turned chaotic yada yada without explanation what was affected/ turned chaotic etc it wouldn't really be usable or wasn't shown how chaos makes certain things happen

 

[Bobsican]

Looking at the page it's even worse than that, it's seemingly just a part of the name of a sort of energy without further context given, and I don't need to explain we don't give powers or abilities only from the name of something (cough Absolute Zero).

Also...

Does Sora have any wincons at all here?

Transduality basically prevents anything on that regard AFAIK, IDK if it can fall into NLF for some stuff like type 5 acausality tho.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

It seems this is just raw AP then, so I'd have to disagree even further as the discussion in this thread already concluded both would just have the same AP as far I'm looking.

That is an old post, so no need to mention it after both DontTalkDT's and Ultima_Reality's points that were later posted. This doesn't change the fact that the battlefield is gone.

Chaos Manip is basically nothing on its own (even being agreed on for deletion site-wide), like Reality Warping, the "effect" is what'd have to be resisted, rather than treating it like a fundamental aspect to specifically handle, Law Manip is covered below, and Subjective Reality is just Reality Warping from imagination, meaning that it's not a fundamental force of sorts either and only the effect matters. Assuming that he can do "anything" would also be a NLF, BTW, which is why we index all that a character has been shown to do with RW and the like.

Not sure why you would link a user's post, rather than a mod's. Even if you link a mod's, it wouldn't matter as the chaos manipulation page sets itself apart from other possible overlapping abilities and does not reference any other. It doesn't mater how you try to skedaddle around this, Sora does not resist it.

You can try to oversimplify an ability, it doesn't matter, it is indexed and no one has assumed any NLF regarding subjective reality. Sora doesn't resist it and regardless of your interpretation, it is indexed on Yang Qi's profile and not on Sora's resistances.

Actually, laws are below concepts in KH if we want to get there, the source for law manip on nearly all characters in the series are sustained by concept manip, and characters can seemingly resist law manip with their concept resistance.

That is their in-verse mechanics, if you feel that Sora should resist then create a CRT and index it. Until then, he doesn't resist.

Well, the thing is that the Final World isn't just a place outside dreams, it's also the most qualitatively inferior dream layer, which'd put it several dreams within dreams below.

I sure expected you'd bring transduality stuff here, and to that I say NLF as it's basically making up new powers here, on that matter I assume the sleep stuff as that's how most characters reach it, the other one is Immersion, which he doesn't have looking at the profile.

ThanatosX stated said place is outside their reach, if you wanna expand on that in an abstract way, then create a CRT for said range including 'dreams within dreams'. Also I don't even have to mention transduality considering Yang Qi's pursuit of what is real and is not lead him to prove on it, in literal terms, falsehood which is 'dreams within dreams'.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Also plot manipulation can be oversimplified as just 'reality warping' but I sure as hell wouldn't say a character who doesn't resist it but resist reality warping can resist it.

Edit: I wanted to create another post but an edit is fine. For those that don't know, Yang Qi didn't qualify for the new Acausality (Type 5) standards and so I removed it from his profile.

 

[Bobsican]

That is an old post, so no need to mention it after both DontTalkDT's and Ultima_Reality's points that were later posted. This doesn't change the fact that the battlefield is gone.

Sora can just create a new one considering he has the X-Blade, especially considering it's clear Yang Qi can't make a "voider" void to all of his cosmological reach immediately or at once.

Not sure why you would link a user's post, rather than a mod's. Even if you link a mod's, it wouldn't matter as the chaos manipulation page sets itself apart from other possible overlapping abilities and does not reference any other. It doesn't mater how you try to skedaddle around this, Sora does not resist it.

You can try to oversimplify an ability, it doesn't matter, it is indexed and no one has assumed any NLF regarding subjective reality. Sora doesn't resist it and regardless of your interpretation, it is indexed on Yang Qi's profile and not on Sora's resistances.

Because that's where the discussion on that started, if you want to see the conclusion from a mod look here. Chaos Manip overall was deemed as too abstract to really mean anything on its own, and the current description basically describing it as glorified AP (namely "destruction") or just overall causing a mess doesn't help.

You're looking too much into how an ability is labeled over how much priority it has in relation to other abilities, I shouldn't have to explain some abilities merely apply stuff and can be counteracted by other abilities normally (a very explicit case of this, for example, is type 3 Concept Manip), and thus in turn the effect is the only real factor, this is why stuff like Reality Warping isn't a centralizing ability in itself in the top 10 strongests lists (have you noticed how it's basically never brought up as a notable ability on its own?).

That is their in-verse mechanics, if you feel that Sora should resist then create a CRT and index it. Until then, he doesn't resist.

Ahem, that bit was already indirectly accepted at the end from the linked CRT (and please read the discussion if you're going to nitpick whoever's saying/accepting stuff again), it's just not on the pages as much hax hierarchies aren't really listed on pages AFAIK.

Anyways, I may as well explain the linked bit, light in KH refers basically to half of what makes up a heart, aka, the conceptual, informational and other stuff of basically anything in that setting as mentioned in the verse-specific P&A page, hence why the laws coming from such would put them hierarchically below, especially when stuff like Black Coats can still resist stuff "enhanced" with law manip (the whole card system discussed in the thread) when their intent was to merely ward off darkness.

ThanatosX stated said place is outside their reach, if you wanna expand on that in an abstract way, then create a CRT for said range including 'dreams within dreams'. Also I don't even have to mention transduality considering Yang Qi's pursuit of what is real and is not lead him to prove on it, in literal terms, falsehood which is 'dreams within dreams'.

That's already covered within an accepted cosmology blog, it's based on other blogs I did that were meant for tiering CRTs like this one.

Uh... the place is specifically even further beyond than "dreams within dreams" (please see the cosmology blog for more information/context), if no further details can be given on how many qualitative inferiorities Yang Qi can affect, then this is quite lacking evidence to claim he can reach it.

Also plot manipulation can be oversimplified as just 'reality warping' but I sure as hell wouldn't say a character who doesn't resist it but resist reality warping can resist it.

Plot Manip is different as it's generally agreed on to be existencially fundamental (over merely manipulating existence), namely out of its metanarrative nature.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Sora can just create a new one considering he has the X-Blade, especially considering it's clear Yang Qi can't make a "voider" void to all of his cosmological reach immediately or at once.

How will he create a new one when he doesn't have a body and is being destroyed constantly? There is also the fact that everything he does is already known to Yang Qi, so what's to stop Yang Qi from destroying it again even before it happens?

Because that's where the discussion on that started, if you want to see the conclusion from a mod look here. Chaos Manip overall was deemed as too abstract to really mean anything on its own, and the current description basically describing it as glorified AP (namely "destruction") or just overall causing a mess doesn't help.

It is fine if you think that, at the end of the day, it is still something Sora doesn't resist. Should the page be deleted or merged with another, then this discussion can restart

You are the one overanalysing and taking apart an ability to try to construct a way Sora resists.

Ahem, that bit was already indirectly accepted at the end from the linked CRT (and please read the discussion if you're going to nitpick whoever's saying/accepting stuff again), it's just not on the pages as much hax hierarchies aren't really listed on pages AFAIK.

Anyways, I may as well explain the linked bit, light in KH refers basically to half of what makes up a heart, aka, the conceptual, informational and other stuff of basically anything in that setting as mentioned in the verse-specific P&A page, hence why the laws coming from such would put them hierarchically below, especially when stuff like Black Coats can still resist stuff "enhanced" with law manip (the whole card system discussed in the thread) when their intent was to merely ward off darkness.

I read it. And like I said, create a CRT and add the resistance. If you feel like you don't need a CRT then you can go and edit Sora's page right now.

Until then I won't discuss something a resistance that isn't on his profile. It is amazing this topic lasted this long.

That's already covered within an accepted cosmology blog, it's based on other blogs I did that were meant for tiering CRTs like this one.

Uh... the place is specifically even further beyond than "dreams within dreams" (please see the cosmology blog for more information/context), if no further details can be given on how many qualitative inferiorities Yang Qi can affect, then this is quite lacking evidence to claim he can reach it.

I read that specific part of the blog and watched the video. The only implied multiple layers+ was the abyss. The only explicitly stated layers were:

• "No. This is a..."
• "Dream of dream. A twofold nightmare."
• "This whole journey, you have been inside Sora's dreams."

I posted dreams within dreams and you've posted a dream within a dream...

Also your post implies you've had it accepted as range and like I said in my previous post, if you wanna expand on that, then create a CRT.

---

• So far there are several abilities Sora does not resist.
• He can't see nor interact with Yang Qi.
• His actions are under Yang Qi's precog.
• Yang Qi has the superior range.

You've wasted both our time discussing resistances that are not on Sora's profile and I engaged you in discussion purely out the curiosity of what you have to add that another supporter hasn't.

Anyways, there were 7 votes and more than 48 hours had passed. Meaning this thread was over days ago. If it is a complete stomp then it should been closed, if it left room for debate as it seemingly did, then this thread truly was over days ago.

 

[Bobsican]

How will he create a new one when he doesn't have a body and is being destroyed constantly? There is also the fact that everything he does is already known to Yang Qi, so what's to stop Yang Qi from destroying it again even before it happens?

We already went on both having similar AP, let alone how Sora himself can still exist on a "normal" void as you seemingly conceded before, so the conclusions drawn here are incorrect.

It is fine if you think that, at the end of the day, it is still something Sora doesn't resist. Should the page be deleted or merged with another, then this discussion can restart

You are the one overanalysing and taking apart an ability to try to construct a way Sora resists.

And you are the one making up a headcanon on how some P&As work to fit your agenda, call up a mod backing up your claim if you're so confident, if not even Ant and a former bureaucrat (who retired merely out of not having that much free time anymore) accepting that Chaos Manip means nothing on its own doesn't make you notice how it's irrelevant here, at that point I'd have to wonder if you're arguing in good faith.

I read it. And like I said, create a CRT and add the resistance. If you feel like you don't need a CRT then you can go and edit Sora's page right now.

Until then I won't discuss something a resistance that isn't on his profile. It is amazing this topic lasted this long.

The burden of proof would be on you to prove I'd need to add it on the page as the current standard is to not index hax hierarchies deemed by a verse, in fact I don't recall any verse that does this.

I read that specific part of the blog and watched the video. The only implied multiple layers+ was the abyss. The only explicitly stated layers were:

• "No. This is a..."
• "Dream of dream. A twofold nightmare."
• "This whole journey, you have been inside Sora's dreams."

I posted dreams within dreams and you've posted a dream within a dream...

Well, the thing is that he also says:

"No matter how many nightmares you consume, you cannot wake someone who has fallen into the chasm of dreams"

Which'd imply a way higher hierarchy than mere "dreams within dreams", namely a 1-A amount of qualitative inferiorities as it's basically stated going from all details given that any amount of dreams within dreams would be irrelevant to get to the very bottom.

Also your post implies you've had it accepted as range and like I said in my previous post, if you wanna expand on that, then create a CRT.

It's covered within the Dream Manip mentioned in the Keyblade page, no one indexes "Tier 11 with Dream Manipulation" or the like on a page, not even Yang Qi's page does that.

• So far there are several abilities Sora does not resist.
• He can't see nor interact with Yang Qi.
• His actions are under Yang Qi's precog.
• Yang Qi has the superior range.

You've wasted both our time discussing resistances that are not on Sora's profile and I engaged you in discussion purely out the curiosity of what you have to add that another supporter hasn't.

Anyways, there were 7 votes and more than 48 hours had passed. Meaning this thread was over days ago. If it is a complete stomp then it should been closed, if it left room for debate as it seemingly did, then this thread truly was over days ago.

*Which are overall irrelevant or just aren't sufficiently effective by other reasons
*My whole argument was that neither has a wincon to begin with, then just tiebreak with Sora having more potent offensive hax, as much Tokyo Babel characters were removed from the list by only having potent defensive abilities but unable to break past most other characters.
*Which changes nothing
*Which changes nothing and is overall wrong when it comes to qualitative inferiorities

Well, it's not like you ever stated the reason you were willing to discuss until now.

And you didn't notify me or anything in such amount of time, and either way this is a invalid match by inherently being a mismatch as either it's a stomp or neither have a win condition. It's better to just argue here than having to ask a mod to reopen it when there's clearly plenty of debate left (namely for the purposes of the top 10 strongests lists), especially if the original reasonings were overall inaccurate/outdated.

 

[Unqver]

We already went on both having similar AP, let alone how Sora himself can still exist on a "normal" void as you seemingly conceded before, so the conclusions drawn here are incorrect.


And you are the one making up a headcanon on how some P&As work to fit your agenda, call up a mod backing up your claim if you're so confident, if not even Ant and a former bureaucrat (who retired merely out of not having that much free time anymore) accepting that Chaos Manip means nothing on its own doesn't make you notice how it's irrelevant here, at that point I'd have to wonder if you're arguing in good faith.


The burden of proof would be on you to prove I'd need to add it on the page as the current standard is to not index hax hierarchies deemed by a verse, in fact I don't recall any verse that does this.


Well, the thing is that he also says:

"No matter how many nightmares you consume, you cannot wake someone who has fallen into the chasm of dreams"

Which'd imply a way higher hierarchy than mere "dreams within dreams", namely a 1-A amount of qualitative inferiorities as it's basically stated going from all details given that any amount of dreams within dreams would be irrelevant to get to the very bottom.


It's covered within the Dream Manip mentioned in the Keyblade page, no one indexes "Tier 11 with Dream Manipulation" or the like on a page, not even Yang Qi's page does that.


*Which are overall irrelevant or just aren't sufficiently effective by other reasons
*My whole argument was that neither has a wincon to begin with, then just tiebreak with Sora having more potent offensive hax, as much Tokyo Babel characters were removed from the list by only having potent defensive abilities but unable to break past most other characters.
*Which changes nothing
*Which changes nothing and is overall wrong when it comes to qualitative inferiorities

Well, it's not like you ever stated the reason you were willing to discuss until now.

And you didn't notify me or anything in such amount of time, and either way this is a invalid match by inherently being a mismatch as either it's a stomp or neither have a win condition. It's better to just argue here than having to ask a mod to reopen it when there's clearly plenty of debate left (namely for the purposes of the top 10 strongests lists), especially if the original reasonings were overall inaccurate/outdated.

What do you think of the infinite dimension mentioned by the Sage Monarch?

 

[Bobsican]

What do you think of the infinite dimension mentioned by the Sage Monarch?

Eh? Can you be more specific please?

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

We already went on both having similar AP, let alone how Sora himself can still exist on a "normal" void as you seemingly conceded before, so the conclusions drawn here are incorrect.

You've gone off and assumed we've come to a mutual understanding and you've used that to ignore my actual point. ThanatosX and I have already agreed their AP are equal, so I really don't know why you would assume it is AP, especially the list of actual hax Sora does not resist, that lead the other supporter (ThanatosX) to come to the conclusion that Sora would indeed die, which is of-course remedied by HGR, which still proves my point.

You've also ignored precog.

And you are the one making up a headcanon on how some P&As work to fit your agenda, call up a mod backing up your claim if you're so confident, if not even Ant and a former bureaucrat (who retired merely out of not having that much free time anymore) accepting that Chaos Manip means nothing on its own doesn't make you notice how it's irrelevant here, at that point I'd have to wonder if you're arguing in good faith.

I simply listed abilities Sora doesn't resist. I don't have to come up with any 'headcanon' on their functionality, you are. You're subscribing to the mod input regarding chaos manipulation as 'chaos manip means nothing on its own' and yet in your previous response, you've stated "and the current description basically describing it as glorified AP (namely "destruction") or just overall causing a mess doesn't help." Basically coming up with your own interpretation of said ability.

While I have simply used the logic of X ability not being present in Sora's resistance. As for the whole chaos manipulation meaning nothing on its own, I have already described its functionality in this thread and like I said previous, should the page be deleted or merged with another, then this discussion can restart, because regardless of what a mod says, the page has yet to be changed.

The burden of proof would be on you to prove I'd need to add it on the page as the current standard is to not index hax hierarchies deemed by a verse, in fact I don't recall any verse that does this.

It is an ability missing from his resistances, there is no burden of proof on me. Matches use what is on the profile, either add it or Sora does not resist.

I am not gonna simply pretend Sora has said resistance on their profile.

Well, the thing is that he also says:

"No matter how many nightmares you consume, you cannot wake someone who has fallen into the chasm of dreams"

Which'd imply a way higher hierarchy than mere "dreams within dreams", namely a 1-A amount of qualitative inferiorities as it's basically stated going from all details given that any amount of dreams within dreams would be irrelevant to get to the very bottom.

I have already said the abyss is implied layers, not explicit. You would need far more context than that, as for explicit, it is just 2 layers.

It's covered within the Dream Manip mentioned in the Keyblade page, no one indexes "Tier 11 with Dream Manipulation" or the like on a page, not even Yang Qi's page does that.

Yeah, I don't know what this reply is supposed to mean. I clearly said range and your post implies it isn't even a 6D realm.

*Which are overall irrelevant or just aren't sufficiently effective by other reasons

Your assumption. Let me see, he doesn't resist:

• Matter Manipulation.
• Deconstruction.
• Soul Manipulation.
• Biological Manipulation.
• Law Manipulation.
• Chaos Manipulation.
• Subjective Reality.
• Reality Warping.
• Spatial Manipulation.
• Power Modification
• Energy Manipulation
• Fate Manipulation

The conclusion of this being that he dies and goes to the Final World. Sora's body, mind, soul, concept being destroyed.

He can't do anything as he is trapped inside both Yang Qi's subjective reality and reality warping, both things he doesn't resist.

Yang Qi can manipulate the rules of their engagement, their world and even Sora (law manipulation he does not resist).

Yang Qi's fate manipulation also allows him to kill Sora with his words.

Sora can't even attack as it is negated by the above and not only that, Sora doesn't resist energy manipulation and power modification.

To top it all off, it is unknown if Sora can even act without a body due to the above effects and the fact that every type of action he does is already seen by Yang Qi's precog.

*My whole argument was that neither has a wincon to begin with, then just tiebreak with Sora having more potent offensive hax, as much Tokyo Babel characters were removed from the list by only having potent defensive abilities but unable to break past most other characters.

Yang Qi can't negate HGR but he sure as hell can incap.

*Which changes nothing

Negates everything he can do if Yang Qi already knows it.

*Which changes nothing and is overall wrong when it comes to qualitative inferiorities

You have yet to actually post explicit evidence. The only explicit thing was just 2 layers of dreams.

Well, it's not like you ever stated the reason you were willing to discuss until now.

And you didn't notify me or anything in such amount of time, and either way this is a invalid match by inherently being a mismatch as either it's a stomp or neither have a win condition. It's better to just argue here than having to ask a mod to reopen it when there's clearly plenty of debate left (namely for the purposes of the top 10 strongests lists), especially if the original reasonings were overall inaccurate/outdated.

I didn't need to notify you though. I left a link in the top 5 list and people responded quickly to this thread, including a supporter of the verse.

 

[Unqver]

Eh? Can you be more specific please?

I replied to you on discord before.

 

[ThatBoiRick]

How does Yang Qi resist or negate Sora's power of waking? Which essentially allows him to rewrite any and all outcome in which he loses or even dies.

His Body, Mind, and Soul were already destroyed in KH3 yet even that was a future he ended up rewriting, along with the entire ending of KH3 in which darkness was indeed fated to win the battle.

PoW even reverted the state of true KH, which is beyond the totality of the KH cosmology that created the laws and rules of each universe inside it.

Precog wouldn't even matter here

 

[Unqver]

万界王图，谁都不知道多大，似乎涵盖古今，纵横未来无数维度，就算是亿万仙界都可以装载而下。——《圣王》第677章
The King of Ten Thousand Realms map, no one knows how large it is, seems to cover countless dimensions of ancient and modern times, spanning the future. Even the billions of immortal realms can be loaded down.——Sage Monarch Chapter 677

Eh? Can you be more specific please?

 

[ThatBoiRick]

万界王图，谁都不知道多大，似乎涵盖古今，纵横未来无数维度，就算是亿万仙界都可以装载而下。——《圣王》第677章
The King of Ten Thousand Realms map, no one knows how large it is, seems to cover countless dimensions of ancient and modern times, spanning the future. Even the billions of immortal realms can be loaded down.——Sage Monarch Chapter 677

"Countless" doesn't mean infinite. If I showed you a picture of 47 billion pop tart boxes on a shelf you would indeed assume there were A countless amount.

And even if it did mean infinite, that's still not High 1-B, that would be a 2-A world instead

 

[Unqver]

"Countless" doesn't mean infinite. If I showed you a picture of 47 billion pop tart boxes on a shelf you would indeed assume there were A countless amount.

And even if it did mean infinite, that's still not High 1-B, that would be a 2-A world instead

The author himself has used countless words to refer to infinity.

 

[Unqver]

"Countless" doesn't mean infinite. If I showed you a picture of 47 billion pop tart boxes on a shelf you would indeed assume there were A countless amount.

And even if it did mean infinite, that's still not High 1-B, that would be a 2-A world instead

As for the dimension description, the author wrote in another book that the low dimension is false or just a dream in the eyes of the high dimension.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

How does Yang Qi resist or negate Sora's power of waking? Which essentially allows him to rewrite any and all outcome in which he loses or even dies.

Has Sora done this to a transdual, nonexistence and acausal type 4 entity? No? That is why.

His Body, Mind, and Soul were already destroyed in KH3 yet even that was a future he ended up rewriting, along with the entire ending of KH3 in which darkness was indeed fated to win the battle.

See above.

PoW even reverted the state of true KH, which is beyond the totality of the KH cosmology that created the laws and rules of each universe inside it.

Yeah, I still

Precog wouldn't even matter here

Yes it would considering he isn't actually acausal type 4.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

万界王图，谁都不知道多大，似乎涵盖古今，纵横未来无数维度，就算是亿万仙界都可以装载而下。——《圣王》第677章
The King of Ten Thousand Realms map, no one knows how large it is, seems to cover countless dimensions of ancient and modern times, spanning the future. Even the billions of immortal realms can be loaded down.——Sage Monarch Chapter 677

The person translating the series translated it as:

• However, no one knew exactly how large the chart was. It covered endless hyperdimensions and could fit millions upon millions of immortal worlds inside.

 

[Unqver]

As for the dimension description, the author wrote in another book that the low dimension is false or just a dream in the eyes of the high dimension.

Is that so strange? Your realm is still a little worse. Although your consciousness contains a very high amount of spirit, it is difficult to distinguish between reality and illusion, or to distinguish which dimension matter is in. It can be said that anything is true, even if it is your dream, it is actually true, but it is in a different dimension from us. We have to distinguish between true and false, in fact, is to distinguish the dimension of matter. At this moment, Su Jie has a new understanding of reality and illusion.
"I said, true and false, false and true, are all about the understanding of the dimension, the information that happens, in the dimension you are in, is true, and your present realm is far from it." "For example, you think I'm a fake now, but I can still beat you," said Su.

 

[Unqver]

The person translating the series translated it as:

• However, no one knew exactly how large the chart was. It covered endless hyperdimensions and could fit millions upon millions of immortal worlds inside.

I don't read the translated version because I can understand why I read the translated version, but there are also mistakes in my translation.亿万It means a very large number or infinity in Chinese.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

@Bobsican The KH thread you linked me to which had a mod responding to you (Theglassman12), which lead to a string of arguments in this thread, has now come to a close as Theglassman12 shares the same sentiment as me:

• If it’s not on the page it doesn’t count, they’d need to make a CRT and add it to the page to argue for the resistance.

I am to blame for wasting so much time telling you to add a resistance missing from the profile.

 

[Unqver]

维度=

The person translating the series translated it as:

• However, no one knew exactly how large the chart was. It covered endless hyperdimensions and could fit millions upon millions of immortal worlds inside.

维度=Dimension，
MengRuShenJiI haven't seen any extra dimensions in the novel.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

维度=

维度=Dimension，
MengRuShenJiI haven't seen any extra dimensions in the novel.

He left this note at the end of chapter 545:

• 1. This is the third word that has come up in Chinese which basically just means ‘dimension’. However, based on the description in this chapter, it’s obviously a unique term with its own definition. Thus, I’m using ‘hyperdimension’ to deal with this additional ‘magical’ explanation of this unique type of ‘dimension’.

 

[Unqver]

He left this note at the end of chapter 545:

• 1. This is the third word that has come up in Chinese which basically just means ‘dimension’. However, based on the description in this chapter, it’s obviously a unique term with its own definition. Thus, I’m using ‘hyperdimension’ to deal with this additional ‘magical’ explanation of this unique type of ‘dimension’.

It's normal.Because dimensions are not specifically described in Sage Monarch, they are simply mentioned.

 

[Unqver]

It's normal.Because dimensions are not specifically described in Sage Monarch, they are simply mentioned.

That's why I say the author's last novel, because in this book, it mentions the description of dimensions.

 

[Unqver]

He left this note at the end of chapter 545:

• 1. This is the third word that has come up in Chinese which basically just means ‘dimension’. However, based on the description in this chapter, it’s obviously a unique term with its own definition. Thus, I’m using ‘hyperdimension’ to deal with this additional ‘magical’ explanation of this unique type of ‘dimension’.

Politely, can I see the translation of the following two paragraphs?
见杨奇身躯上的火焰渐渐平息，大贤者道：“好………想不到你这么快就修炼成了真魔万劫不坏体第一个字，这万劫不坏体，一共有上万的文字，一字一劫，一劫却又化为万劫，劫劫连环，不可毁灭，这次你得到我的帮助，可以把第一句的经文修炼成功，万劫不坏体就是略微成就，以后自己修行，第一句，有十多个字，来！我们帮助你，一鼓作气，完全修炼成功了吧！
真魔万劫不坏体修炼起来，极其困难。几乎是没有什么魔头能够修炼成功，一个世界，从诞生到达毁灭，就是一劫。万劫不坏，那就是永远不会灭亡了。万的意思不是一万，而是泛指，无穷大——圣王965章
是巨大的爆炸声音，夏广寒体内的经脉，气海，全部爆炸，化为了无限多元气，空行母在施展出来自己的无上手段来调和智慧神丹的元气，这元气在两人的头顶上化为了一个个的大千世界，世界之中套着世界，一环扣一环，环环相扣，四处都是同心圆一般的世界。 　　大千自在心法。 　　这个时候，空行母和夏广寒都到达了极限，开始不停变化，周身出现了无数大世界走马观花似的变化着，杨奇深深知道这一刻该做什么。——《圣王》第1326章

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

真魔万劫不坏体修炼起来，极其困难。几乎是没有什么魔头能够修炼成功，一个世界，从诞生到达毁灭，就是一劫。万劫不坏，那就是永远不会灭亡了。万的意思不是一万，而是泛指，无穷大——圣王965章

You didn't the chapter for the first paragraph. Also I would separate the translation but it comes as a package I suppose:

• Cultivating the True-Devil Unspoiled-by-Myriad-Kalpas-and-Tribulations Body was a very difficult task. Apparently, there had never been a single fiend-devil who succeeded with it.
• A kalpa was the time from when a world was born until it was destroyed. To say that one would remain unspoiled even after a myriad of kalpas had passed essentially meant that one would remain eternally indestructible. When interpreting the meaning of the character as “kalpa”, myriad carried the sense, not of ten thousand, but of a number so high it was incalculable.

是巨大的爆炸声音，夏广寒体内的经脉，气海，全部爆炸，化为了无限多元气，空行母在施展出来自己的无上手段来调和智慧神丹的元气，这元气在两人的头顶上化为了一个个的大千世界，世界之中套着世界，一环扣一环，环环相扣，四处都是同心圆一般的世界。 　　大千自在心法。

• Summer Vastcold’s meridians and sea of energy surged with unending vital energy as Mother Voidwalker used her boundless techniques to direct the effects of the Wisdom and Knowledge God Pill. The massive surges of vital energy caused chiliocosms of worlds to appear above their heads, worlds within worlds, endless cycles around them.
• It was the Chiliocosm Unrestrained Mental Dharma!

And unfortunately, the chapter ends, so it is a mistranslation:

• It was the Chiliocosm Unrestrained Mental Dharma!
• Yang Qi could sense that the moment had come for him to act.
• Suddenly, devilish specters appeared behind the two women, which neither could see or sense.
• The devil embryos had been activated, and as a result, all of the power on display was sucked inside, vanishing without a trace.
• And of course, all of that power went straight to Yang Immortal-Slayer.

 

[ThanatosX]

Since I am being brought up, I think I should clarify my stance on this match.
I previously said that I believe this is a stomp mainly for two factors:

• Yang Qi needs only one hax to work on Sora for him to kill/incap him over and over again, which according to our current rules counts as a permanent incap which would give the win to Yang Qi
• Yang Qi being able to reach Sora in the Final World would prevent him from taking any action, allowing Yang to, again, kill/incap him constantly as soon as he reappears.

If any of this two points were to be disproven, then I would go back to consider this an Incon since:
- Yang Qi would have no way to actually kill/incap Sora in the first place
-Yang Qi would not be able to reach Sora in the Final World, making him unable to continously kill him.
But at the moment I am still of the idea this is a stomp in Yang's favor.

Regarding the rest that was discussed, the Chaos Manipulation was a point that I brought up before, and for how it works it would not be that much of an issues since Sora was already able to regain a physical form after being turn into a being of pure Darkness like a Heartless, and considering the Chaos hax works in a similiar way by turning the opponent into Chaos Energy than that wouldn't be much a issue.
For the Law Manipulation, Bobsican is right in saying that Sora should resist it considering what was discovered in the most recent games like Dark Road. But Muchaco is also right in saying that it shouldn't be considered for this match since it is not in the profile in the first place. It was removed for some reason I don't remember, but that was before the new stuff was revealed. Regardless, it needs a CRT to be approved and applied, and for now it should not be considered for this match. Still, it would not bypass the High-Godly, but as mentioned before it can be used to continously kill Sora to incap.
I will be honest, I completely forgot about the "dream within dream" stuff in 3-D just like I forgot about most stuff in 3-D since in it's initial release it wasn't even translated with subtitles in my language, which pissed me off a lot. Given the context of the series, it should be fine, but considering how big that would put the scaling chain in regards of Range it should be accepted somewhere. But if accepted it might be fair argument for an Incon.
And lastly, I don't see what relevance have this argument of the last few comments about the infinite dimensions. If it's for arguing that Yang Qi or his range should be High 1-B or something along those lines, than this should be brought up in a dedicated CRT, not a versus match.
Overall I still think this is a stomp in Yang Qi favor, but I could change my mind in the future, either for some revisions or for the release of Kingdom Hearts 4 in 2030.

 

[Unqver]

You didn't the chapter for the first paragraph. Also I would separate the translation but it comes as a package I suppose:

• Cultivating the True-Devil Unspoiled-by-Myriad-Kalpas-and-Tribulations Body was a very difficult task. Apparently, there had never been a single fiend-devil who succeeded with it.
• A kalpa was the time from when a world was born until it was destroyed. To say that one would remain unspoiled even after a myriad of kalpas had passed essentially meant that one would remain eternally indestructible. When interpreting the meaning of the character as “kalpa”, myriad carried the sense, not of ten thousand, but of a number so high it was incalculable.

• Summer Vastcold’s meridians and sea of energy surged with unending vital energy as Mother Voidwalker used her boundless techniques to direct the effects of the Wisdom and Knowledge God Pill. The massive surges of vital energy caused chiliocosms of worlds to appear above their heads, worlds within worlds, endless cycles around them.
• It was the Chiliocosm Unrestrained Mental Dharma!

And unfortunately, the chapter ends, so it is a mistranslation:

• It was the Chiliocosm Unrestrained Mental Dharma!
• Yang Qi could sense that the moment had come for him to act.
• Suddenly, devilish specters appeared behind the two women, which neither could see or sense.
• The devil embryos had been activated, and as a result, all of the power on display was sucked inside, vanishing without a trace.
• And of course, all of that power went straight to Yang Immortal-Slayer.

无穷大=Infinity，In addition, there are some things that I feel very strange.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

见杨奇身躯上的火焰渐渐平息，大贤者道：“好………想不到你这么快就修炼成了真魔万劫不坏体第一个字，这万劫不坏体，一共有上万的文字，一字一劫，一劫却又化为万劫，劫劫连环，不可毁灭，这次你得到我的帮助，可以把第一句的经文修炼成功，万劫不坏体就是略微成就，以后自己修行，第一句，有十多个字，来！我们帮助你，一鼓作气，完全修炼成功了吧！

Found it:

• Seeing what Yang Qi had accomplished, the mahātmā said, “Well done. I never would’ve guessed that you could succeed with the first character so quickly. Remember, there are over ten thousand characters in the True-Devil Unspoiled-by-Myriad-Kalpas-and-Tribulations Body, and each one is a tribulation that contains a myriad of subsidiary tribulations. With our help, you should be able to finish the first verse of the scroll, which contains sixteen characters. Let's get to it!”

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

无穷大=Infinity，In addition, there are some things that I feel very strange.

I see. I do see the potential for 1-A but the last threads were really exhausting.

 

[Unqver]

Since I am being brought up, I think I should clarify my stance on this match.
I previously said that I believe this is a stomp mainly for two factors:

• Yang Qi needs only one hax to work on Sora for him to kill/incap him over and over again, which according to our current rules counts as a permanent incap which would give the win to Yang Qi
• Yang Qi being able to reach Sora in the Final World would prevent him from taking any action, allowing Yang to, again, kill/incap him constantly as soon as he reappears.

If any of this two points were to be disproven, then I would go back to consider this an Incon since:
- Yang Qi would have no way to actually kill/incap Sora in the first place
-Yang Qi would not be able to reach Sora in the Final World, making him unable to continously kill him.
But at the moment I am still of the idea this is a stomp in Yang's favor.

Regarding the rest that was discussed, the Chaos Manipulation was a point that I brought up before, and for how it works it would not be that much of an issues since Sora was already able to regain a physical form after being turn into a being of pure Darkness like a Heartless, and considering the Chaos hax works in a similiar way by turning the opponent into Chaos Energy than that wouldn't be much a issue.
For the Law Manipulation, Bobsican is right in saying that Sora should resist it considering what was discovered in the most recent games like Dark Road. But Muchaco is also right in saying that it shouldn't be considered for this match since it is not in the profile in the first place. It was removed for some reason I don't remember, but that was before the new stuff was revealed. Regardless, it needs a CRT to be approved and applied, and for now it should not be considered for this match. Still, it would not bypass the High-Godly, but as mentioned before it can be used to continously kill Sora to incap.
I will be honest, I completely forgot about the "dream within dream" stuff in 3-D just like I forgot about most stuff in 3-D since in it's initial release it wasn't even translated with subtitles in my language, which pissed me off a lot. Given the context of the series, it should be fine, but considering how big that would put the scaling chain in regards of Range it should be accepted somewhere. But if accepted it might be fair argument for an Incon.
And lastly, I don't see what relevance have this argument of the last few comments about the infinite dimensions. If it's for arguing that Yang Qi or his range should be High 1-B or something along those lines, than this should be brought up in a dedicated CRT, not a versus match.
Overall I still think this is a stomp in Yang Qi favor, but I could change my mind in the future, either for some revisions or for the release of Kingdom Hearts 4 in 2030.

I asked the rabbit, but he didn't answer me.

 

[Unqver]

Found it:

• Seeing what Yang Qi had accomplished, the mahātmā said, “Well done. I never would’ve guessed that you could succeed with the first character so quickly. Remember, there are over ten thousand characters in the True-Devil Unspoiled-by-Myriad-Kalpas-and-Tribulations Body, and each one is a tribulation that contains a myriad of subsidiary tribulations. With our help, you should be able to finish the first verse of the scroll, which contains sixteen characters. Let's get to it!”

？How are words translated into characters?

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

Given the context of the series, it should be fine, but considering how big that would put the scaling chain in regards of Range it should be accepted somewhere.

Not necessarily. You just have to convince me and I would have to convince you. For example this.

And lastly, I don't see what relevance have this argument of the last few comments about the infinite dimensions. If it's for arguing that Yang Qi or his range should be High 1-B or something along those lines, than this should be brought up in a dedicated CRT, not a versus match.
Overall I still think this is a stomp in Yang Qi favor, but I could change my mind in the future, either for some revisions or for the release of Kingdom Hearts 4 in 2030.

You can ignore these talks. It isn't simply some higher tier but also has to do with the mind.