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Hello everyone!
Long time no see.
As many of you know, I've been gone for a hot minute. In my absence, it seems that a lot of changes were made to the verse. Obviously the verse has every right to move on in my absence, I don't have ownership over it or anything, and if anything, it makes me happy to know that things can and will move on without me. One of the main reasons I even started doing all of these revisions was that I was really sick of how slow and low-quality the revisions used to be for the most part. I'll admit, I haven't always helped the slow bit, but I like to think that I always compensated for that with high quality revisions.
With all of that being said, I'm really proud of you guys for trying to move the verse along without me, buuuuuuut certain things that went through I don't necessarily agree with. I haven't caught up with everything that went down while I was away yet, 9 months is a long time after all, but the first victim that was brought to my attention was this thread.
I guess it's no surprise that the first successful TSO downgrade thread takes place when I'm away, since I was mainly the one who put a stop to them. But alas, I'm here to set the record straight. Now I'll be replying to the arguments made by the OP.
I mean, look, I don't want to sound like an ass, but there's deadass no argument here. Like, there's nothing for me to even counter. How did this go through exactly?
I know some people made arguments in the replies, but it's still the OP's responsibility to back up their claims in the OP.
Anyway, I guess I'll have to remake the argument for the TSO's having this ability in the first place, as was accepted originally in this thread.
The argument boils down to the fact the ETSB was stated verbatim to be exactly the same as the small TSBs, with the only real difference being their size. This information was relayed to us twice, once in the manga (chapter 689) and once in the 4th Naruto Databook (page 293). Both sources say the exact same thing, and no further information is provided ANYWHERE. We have no reason to doubt this information, nor any real way of refuting it due to the scarcity of any material pertaining to the topic, other than what was already provided. So it's really as simple and as clear-cut as can be.
Alrighty then. Now that we've established that the ETSB is the same as the TSB, but considerably larger and ever-expanding, let's establish why they have Space-Time Manipulation. Technically this ability wasn't even refuted or debunked as far as I know, so I don't really need to go over this, but I will anyway.
It's really simple. Kaguya's ETSB was going to keep expanding until it completely engulfed and erased her dimension, as stated by Black Zetsu (chapter 689) and the 4th Databook (page 293). She was then going to use it to create a new dimension in its stead. Really straightforward stuff, and already accepted.
I should mention that this was originally accepted as a Possibly for the small TSBs because they never actually demonstrated the ability. The statements are clear-cut, yes, but many people still took issues with adding the ability outright. Honestly, I'm perfectly okay with the possibly. I think it's a fair compromise; however, removing it outright and disregarding the only statements we have about the TSOs would just be too much for me to agree with.
EDIT: @Arc7Kuroi has translated the raw for this scan here, and apparently it actually mentions Space, not Space-Time. So the ability should be changed from Space-Time Manipulation to just Spatial Manipulation.
You've provided this example (chapter 669) to support your argument. Let's examine the first scan to begin with. Minato making contact with the TSBs and teleporting with them being used as a counter is a bit laughable tbh. The way the TSBs' Ninjutsu Nullification functions is through physical contact with the spheres. In this example, there's no physical contact being made with ANY Jutsu. The TSBs are making contact with Minato himself, not the FTG Jutsu.
In the second scan, we have Kakashi teleporting part of the TSO with Kamui. Again, this doesn't really say anything as far a limitation is concerned. Kamui can't be negated because the Jutsu isn't and can't make physical contact with the TSO. Kamui, as a Justu is initiated in the user's eye, and is based on creating a spatial barrier around whatever the user is looking at. The barrier then teleports the object(s) inside it to the Kamui dimension. So again, there's no physical contact being made with any Jutsu here. Like, what's the TSB supposed to negate here? Space?
So yes, it's very important to understand the nature of the TSBs negation, and how it functions, as well as the nature of the Jutsu it's interacting with. Jutsu are extremely varied in nature, and not all of them can be physically interacted with in the conventional sense, which is the only criteria for the TSBs negation to function. The Erasure, and all of the TSBs' other properties function on this exact principle, which people need to comprehend before nitpicking examples from the manga.
So what am I proposing here? Well, basically for all of the changes to be reversed. The original OP wasn't very well-made and shouldn't have been accepted in the first place.
Maybe an addendum should be made in the weaknesses section to explain exactly how the TSBs' abilities function in more detail, and point out their physical limitations. That's about it, really.
As a side note, I've been away for a very long time and I'm quite rusty. It's going to take a little while to get back to making big threads, specifically the Bijuu thread. I know I've kept ya'll waiting for too long, and I'm really sorry about that, but I'll work my way up to it very soon. This thread is just a warm-up to get me back into the sway of things. You won't have to wait much longer, I promise.
And that's about it fellas, hope you have a great day!
Long time no see.
As many of you know, I've been gone for a hot minute. In my absence, it seems that a lot of changes were made to the verse. Obviously the verse has every right to move on in my absence, I don't have ownership over it or anything, and if anything, it makes me happy to know that things can and will move on without me. One of the main reasons I even started doing all of these revisions was that I was really sick of how slow and low-quality the revisions used to be for the most part. I'll admit, I haven't always helped the slow bit, but I like to think that I always compensated for that with high quality revisions.
With all of that being said, I'm really proud of you guys for trying to move the verse along without me, buuuuuuut certain things that went through I don't necessarily agree with. I haven't caught up with everything that went down while I was away yet, 9 months is a long time after all, but the first victim that was brought to my attention was this thread.
I guess it's no surprise that the first successful TSO downgrade thread takes place when I'm away, since I was mainly the one who put a stop to them. But alas, I'm here to set the record straight. Now I'll be replying to the arguments made by the OP.
Too easy, I have to say. No offense to the OP, but the arguments made were shallow at best, and I'm honestly disappointed they went through so easily.
Oh really? Well, cool. I guess we'll just have to take your word for it.
I mean, look, I don't want to sound like an ass, but there's deadass no argument here. Like, there's nothing for me to even counter. How did this go through exactly?
I know some people made arguments in the replies, but it's still the OP's responsibility to back up their claims in the OP.
Anyway, I guess I'll have to remake the argument for the TSO's having this ability in the first place, as was accepted originally in this thread.
The argument boils down to the fact the ETSB was stated verbatim to be exactly the same as the small TSBs, with the only real difference being their size. This information was relayed to us twice, once in the manga (chapter 689) and once in the 4th Naruto Databook (page 293). Both sources say the exact same thing, and no further information is provided ANYWHERE. We have no reason to doubt this information, nor any real way of refuting it due to the scarcity of any material pertaining to the topic, other than what was already provided. So it's really as simple and as clear-cut as can be.
Alrighty then. Now that we've established that the ETSB is the same as the TSB, but considerably larger and ever-expanding, let's establish why they have Space-Time Manipulation. Technically this ability wasn't even refuted or debunked as far as I know, so I don't really need to go over this, but I will anyway.
It's really simple. Kaguya's ETSB was going to keep expanding until it completely engulfed and erased her dimension, as stated by Black Zetsu (chapter 689) and the 4th Databook (page 293). She was then going to use it to create a new dimension in its stead. Really straightforward stuff, and already accepted.
I should mention that this was originally accepted as a Possibly for the small TSBs because they never actually demonstrated the ability. The statements are clear-cut, yes, but many people still took issues with adding the ability outright. Honestly, I'm perfectly okay with the possibly. I think it's a fair compromise; however, removing it outright and disregarding the only statements we have about the TSOs would just be too much for me to agree with.
EDIT: @Arc7Kuroi has translated the raw for this scan here, and apparently it actually mentions Space, not Space-Time. So the ability should be changed from Space-Time Manipulation to just Spatial Manipulation.
This is honestly a bit silly, and I think it's entirely due to a fundamental misunderstanding of how the TSBs actually function.
You've provided this example (chapter 669) to support your argument. Let's examine the first scan to begin with. Minato making contact with the TSBs and teleporting with them being used as a counter is a bit laughable tbh. The way the TSBs' Ninjutsu Nullification functions is through physical contact with the spheres. In this example, there's no physical contact being made with ANY Jutsu. The TSBs are making contact with Minato himself, not the FTG Jutsu.
In the second scan, we have Kakashi teleporting part of the TSO with Kamui. Again, this doesn't really say anything as far a limitation is concerned. Kamui can't be negated because the Jutsu isn't and can't make physical contact with the TSO. Kamui, as a Justu is initiated in the user's eye, and is based on creating a spatial barrier around whatever the user is looking at. The barrier then teleports the object(s) inside it to the Kamui dimension. So again, there's no physical contact being made with any Jutsu here. Like, what's the TSB supposed to negate here? Space?
So yes, it's very important to understand the nature of the TSBs negation, and how it functions, as well as the nature of the Jutsu it's interacting with. Jutsu are extremely varied in nature, and not all of them can be physically interacted with in the conventional sense, which is the only criteria for the TSBs negation to function. The Erasure, and all of the TSBs' other properties function on this exact principle, which people need to comprehend before nitpicking examples from the manga.
So what am I proposing here? Well, basically for all of the changes to be reversed. The original OP wasn't very well-made and shouldn't have been accepted in the first place.
Maybe an addendum should be made in the weaknesses section to explain exactly how the TSBs' abilities function in more detail, and point out their physical limitations. That's about it, really.
As a side note, I've been away for a very long time and I'm quite rusty. It's going to take a little while to get back to making big threads, specifically the Bijuu thread. I know I've kept ya'll waiting for too long, and I'm really sorry about that, but I'll work my way up to it very soon. This thread is just a warm-up to get me back into the sway of things. You won't have to wait much longer, I promise.
And that's about it fellas, hope you have a great day!
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