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Ya'll have no choice but to accept this revision as my welcome back (also late birthday!) present ;)

UchihaSlayer96

He/Him
VS Battles
Thread Moderator
10,891
14,177
Hello everyone!
Long time no see.
As many of you know, I've been gone for a hot minute. In my absence, it seems that a lot of changes were made to the verse. Obviously the verse has every right to move on in my absence, I don't have ownership over it or anything, and if anything, it makes me happy to know that things can and will move on without me. One of the main reasons I even started doing all of these revisions was that I was really sick of how slow and low-quality the revisions used to be for the most part. I'll admit, I haven't always helped the slow bit, but I like to think that I always compensated for that with high quality revisions.
With all of that being said, I'm really proud of you guys for trying to move the verse along without me, buuuuuuut certain things that went through I don't necessarily agree with. I haven't caught up with everything that went down while I was away yet, 9 months is a long time after all, but the first victim that was brought to my attention was this thread.

I guess it's no surprise that the first successful TSO downgrade thread takes place when I'm away, since I was mainly the one who put a stop to them. But alas, I'm here to set the record straight. Now I'll be replying to the arguments made by the OP.

Simple and maybe easy.
Too easy, I have to say. No offense to the OP, but the arguments made were shallow at best, and I'm honestly disappointed they went through so easily.
TSB should have the Possibly Space-Time Manipulation removed
Oh really? Well, cool. I guess we'll just have to take your word for it.
I mean, look, I don't want to sound like an ass, but there's deadass no argument here. Like, there's nothing for me to even counter. How did this go through exactly?
I know some people made arguments in the replies, but it's still the OP's responsibility to back up their claims in the OP.

Anyway, I guess I'll have to remake the argument for the TSO's having this ability in the first place, as was accepted originally in this thread.
The argument boils down to the fact the ETSB was stated verbatim to be exactly the same as the small TSBs, with the only real difference being their size. This information was relayed to us twice, once in the manga (chapter 689) and once in the 4th Naruto Databook (page 293). Both sources say the exact same thing, and no further information is provided ANYWHERE. We have no reason to doubt this information, nor any real way of refuting it due to the scarcity of any material pertaining to the topic, other than what was already provided. So it's really as simple and as clear-cut as can be.

Alrighty then. Now that we've established that the ETSB is the same as the TSB, but considerably larger and ever-expanding, let's establish why they have Space-Time Manipulation. Technically this ability wasn't even refuted or debunked as far as I know, so I don't really need to go over this, but I will anyway.
It's really simple. Kaguya's ETSB was going to keep expanding until it completely engulfed and erased her dimension, as stated by Black Zetsu (chapter 689) and the 4th Databook (page 293). She was then going to use it to create a new dimension in its stead. Really straightforward stuff, and already accepted.

I should mention that this was originally accepted as a Possibly for the small TSBs because they never actually demonstrated the ability. The statements are clear-cut, yes, but many people still took issues with adding the ability outright. Honestly, I'm perfectly okay with the possibly. I think it's a fair compromise; however, removing it outright and disregarding the only statements we have about the TSOs would just be too much for me to agree with.

EDIT: @Arc7Kuroi has translated the raw for this scan here, and apparently it actually mentions Space, not Space-Time. So the ability should be changed from Space-Time Manipulation to just Spatial Manipulation.
and should have power negation downgraded to limited power negation seeing as it could not nullify Kamui which is a space time ninjutsu which proves the statement of them negating all ninjutsu false.
Kamui listed as ninjutsu and it working on the so called power negating tsb.
This is honestly a bit silly, and I think it's entirely due to a fundamental misunderstanding of how the TSBs actually function.
You've provided this example (chapter 669) to support your argument. Let's examine the first scan to begin with. Minato making contact with the TSBs and teleporting with them being used as a counter is a bit laughable tbh. The way the TSBs' Ninjutsu Nullification functions is through physical contact with the spheres. In this example, there's no physical contact being made with ANY Jutsu. The TSBs are making contact with Minato himself, not the FTG Jutsu.

In the second scan, we have Kakashi teleporting part of the TSO with Kamui. Again, this doesn't really say anything as far a limitation is concerned. Kamui can't be negated because the Jutsu isn't and can't make physical contact with the TSO. Kamui, as a Justu is initiated in the user's eye, and is based on creating a spatial barrier around whatever the user is looking at. The barrier then teleports the object(s) inside it to the Kamui dimension. So again, there's no physical contact being made with any Jutsu here. Like, what's the TSB supposed to negate here? Space?

So yes, it's very important to understand the nature of the TSBs negation, and how it functions, as well as the nature of the Jutsu it's interacting with. Jutsu are extremely varied in nature, and not all of them can be physically interacted with in the conventional sense, which is the only criteria for the TSBs negation to function. The Erasure, and all of the TSBs' other properties function on this exact principle, which people need to comprehend before nitpicking examples from the manga.

So what am I proposing here? Well, basically for all of the changes to be reversed. The original OP wasn't very well-made and shouldn't have been accepted in the first place.
Maybe an addendum should be made in the weaknesses section to explain exactly how the TSBs' abilities function in more detail, and point out their physical limitations. That's about it, really.


As a side note, I've been away for a very long time and I'm quite rusty. It's going to take a little while to get back to making big threads, specifically the Bijuu thread. I know I've kept ya'll waiting for too long, and I'm really sorry about that, but I'll work my way up to it very soon. This thread is just a warm-up to get me back into the sway of things. You won't have to wait much longer, I promise.

And that's about it fellas, hope you have a great day!
 
Last edited:
Obviously the verse has every right to move on in my absence
Nahuh

I will say the actual kanji for this statement is just the kanji for "kuukan" which means "space", "timespace" is a mistranslation from VIZ. Idk about the other statements, but that one particularly only references erasing the space.

Anyway, I agree with the premise of the thread. Tmk tho it would be space erasure, unless there is another statement I don't know that actually says time.
 
Nahuh


I will say the actual kanji for this statement is just the kanji for "kuukan" which means "space", "timespace" is a mistranslation from VIZ. Idk about the other statements, but that one particularly only references erasing the space.

Anyway, I agree with the premise of the thread. Tmk tho it would be space erasure, unless there is another statement I don't know that actually says time.
I don't really have a problem with that, but it'd probably need to be its own thread. Although tbf I don't mind changing it here if the new translation is accepted.

But yeah, my main goal here is to undo the previous revision.
 
I don't really have a problem with that, but it'd probably need to be its own thread. Although tbf I don't mind changing it here if the new translation is accepted.

But yeah, my main goal here is to undo the previous revision.
Send me the raws and I'll break it down in this thread if you like, but if you wanna save it for another thread then yeah I'll just flat out agree with you on the reversal then
 
OP looks good, and anyone disagreeing with this hates gay people (US69).
f33.jpg
 
Yeah the kanji here used is 空間 which just means space, the kanji for space time is 時空
Alrighty then, I'm totally okay with changing the Space-Time Manipulation to Spatial Manipulation. Lemme add this to the OP.

Edit: Done.
 
Hello everyone!
Long time no see.
As many of you know, I've been gone for a hot minute. In my absence, it seems that a lot of changes were made to the verse. Obviously the verse has every right to move on in my absence, I don't have ownership over it or anything, and if anything, it makes me happy to know that things can and will move on without me. One of the main reasons I even started doing all of these revisions was that I was really sick of how slow and low-quality the revisions used to be for the most part. I'll admit, I haven't always helped the slow bit, but I like to think that I always compensated for that with high quality revisions.
With all of that being said, I'm really proud of you guys for trying to move the verse along without me, buuuuuuut certain things that went through I don't necessarily agree with. I haven't caught up with everything that went down while I was away yet, 9 months is a long time after all, but the first victim that was brought to my attention was this thread.

I guess it's no surprise that the first successful TSO downgrade thread takes place when I'm away, since I was mainly the one who put a stop to them. But alas, I'm here to set the record straight. Now I'll be replying to the arguments made by the OP.


Too easy, I have to say. No offense to the OP, but the arguments made were shallow at best, and I'm honestly disappointed they went through so easily.

Oh really? Well, cool. I guess we'll just have to take your word for it.
I mean, look, I don't want to sound like an ass, but there's deadass no argument here. Like, there's nothing for me to even counter. How did this go through exactly?
I know some people made arguments in the replies, but it's still the OP's responsibility to back up their claims in the OP.

Anyway, I guess I'll have to remake the argument for the TSO's having this ability in the first place, as was accepted originally in this thread.
The argument boils down to the fact the ETSB was stated verbatim to be exactly the same as the small TSBs, with the only real difference being their size. This information was relayed to us twice, once in the manga (chapter 689) and once in the 4th Naruto Databook (page 293). Both sources say the exact same thing, and no further information is provided ANYWHERE. We have no reason to doubt this information, nor any real way of refuting it due to the scarcity of any material pertaining to the topic, other than what was already provided. So it's really as simple and as clear-cut as can be.

Alrighty then. Now that we've established that the ETSB is the same as the TSB, but considerably larger and ever-expanding, let's establish why they have Space-Time Manipulation. Technically this ability wasn't even refuted or debunked as far as I know, so I don't really need to go over this, but I will anyway.
It's really simple. Kaguya's ETSB was going to keep expanding until it completely engulfed and erased her dimension, as stated by Black Zetsu (chapter 689) and the 4th Databook (page 293). She was then going to use it to create a new dimension in its stead. Really straightforward stuff, and already accepted.

I should mention that this was originally accepted as a Possibly for the small TSBs because they never actually demonstrated the ability. The statements are clear-cut, yes, but many people still took issues with adding the ability outright. Honestly, I'm perfectly okay with the possibly. I think it's a fair compromise; however, removing it outright and disregarding the only statements we have about the TSOs would just be too much for me to agree with.

EDIT: @Arc7Kuroi has translated the raw for this scan here, and apparently it actually mentions Space, not Space-Time. So the ability should be changed from Space-Time Manipulation to just Spatial Manipulation.

This is honestly a bit silly, and I think it's entirely due to a fundamental misunderstanding of how the TSBs actually function.
You've provided this example (chapter 669) to support your argument. Let's examine the first scan to begin with. Minato making contact with the TSBs and teleporting with them being used as a counter is a bit laughable tbh. The way the TSBs' Ninjutsu Nullification functions is through physical contact with the spheres. In this example, there's no physical contact being made with ANY Jutsu. The TSBs are making contact with Minato himself, not the FTG Jutsu.

In the second scan, we have Kakashi teleporting part of the TSO with Kamui. Again, this doesn't really say anything as far a limitation is concerned. Kamui can't be negated because the Jutsu isn't and can't make physical contact with the TSO. Kamui, as a Justu is initiated in the user's eye, and is based on creating a spatial barrier around whatever the user is looking at. The barrier then teleports the object(s) inside it to the Kamui dimension. So again, there's no physical contact being made with any Jutsu here. Like, what's the TSB supposed to negate here? Space?

So yes, it's very important to understand the nature of the TSBs negation, and how it functions, as well as the nature of the Jutsu it's interacting with. Jutsu are extremely varied in nature, and not all of them can be physically interacted with in the conventional sense, which is the only criteria for the TSBs negation to function. The Erasure, and all of the TSBs' other properties function on this exact principle, which people need to comprehend before nitpicking examples from the manga.

So what am I proposing here? Well, basically for all of the changes to be reversed. The original OP wasn't very well-made and shouldn't have been accepted in the first place.
Maybe an addendum should be made in the weaknesses section to explain exactly how the TSBs' abilities function in more detail, and point out their physical limitations. That's about it, really.


As a side note, I've been away for a very long time and I'm quite rusty. It's going to take a little while to get back to making big threads, specifically the Bijuu thread. I know I've kept ya'll waiting for too long, and I'm really sorry about that, but I'll work my way up to it very soon. This thread is just a warm-up to get me back into the sway of things. You won't have to wait much longer, I promise.

And that's about it fellas, hope you have a great day!
Absolutley Agree with the op. I Deadass was saying pretty much all the arguments for it to get removed were dogshit but nobody listens
 
I'm fine with a possible spatial manipulation seeing as it couldn't counter spatial manipulation in the first place.
This.......doesn't make sense. You don't need to counter an ability in order to have it......? Like, my mind control needs to counter another person's mind control in order to count now??
 
Kamui is just more layered than TSO space erasure is... its not an inherent contradiction
Kamui isn't currently accepted as layered if it was that's all cool and dandy.
This.......doesn't make sense. You don't need to counter an ability in order to have it......? Like, my mind control needs to counter another person's mind control in order to count now??
Mofo I said I agree what more do you want from me? Tag the mods who agreed with it.
Like possible spatial manip is fine even if I disagree with it it's better then space-time manip.

It just requires you to ignore a non layered kamui affecting it and creating a spatial barrier around it that it couldn't counter.
 
Kamui isn't currently accepted as layered if it was that's all cool and dandy.
It doesn't need to be, I'm arguing it is right now.

It just requires you to ignore a non layered kamui affecting it and creating a spatial barrier around it that it couldn't counter.
Can you provide any evidence whatsoever that points to kamui being unable to be layered? Cuz if your argument is just "we dont accept it to be layered", that's just a non-argument.
 
It doesn't need to be, I'm arguing it is right now.


Can you provide any evidence whatsoever that points to kamui being unable to be layered? Cuz if your argument is just "we dont accept it to be layered", that's just a non-argument.
So you want me to argue against your personal accepted scaling instead of the current scaling we use for Kamui?
 
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