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UchihaSlayer96

He/Him
VS Battles
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Hello Everyone!
In this thread we're going to go over a potential hax-related upgrade for the notorious Truth Seeking Balls. I know it's a bit of a touchy subject for many people, but I implore you to look over what we have to show you objectively and keep an open mind when making your assessments. This will be a bit long, so bear with me.

Without further ado, here we go!

The Origin Story:

First things first, because I'm sure someone will mention this at some point. The comparison made between the TSBs and Onoki's Dust Release only applies to them BEFORE Yin-Yang Release is applied to them. Yin-Yang Release gives them their Ninjutsu nullifying properties, and as we'll prove later, their other abilities as well. So there's absolutely no contradiction with Hiruzen's statement because he was only referring to when they were comprised of the principle 5 nature transformations only. In fact, it's even likely that he was simply making a hypothesis about their make-up being 4 or more natures in comparison to Jinton's 3, which indicates clear superiority, and again this is all prior to them getting enhanced by Yin-Yang Release.

Now onto the more dicey topics.......

The TSB is stated to be comprised of all nature transformations (Fire, Wind, Lightning, Water, and Earth) alongside Yin-Yang Release. Also stated in the same text to be capable of using a variety of effects due to all the natures in it, which supports its ability to perform a variety of intended effects as we'll go over here. The TSBs containing Yin-Yang Release is very crucial because we know that Yin-Yang Release is what was used for Hagoromo's strongest ability "Creation of all Things" which is a reality warping ability superior to Izanagi. Similarly to it's much inferior derivative, Izanagi, Creation of All Things can alter reality based on the user's wishes to achieve a variety of effects. A good example of Ying-Yang performing Reality Warping feats would be Naruto using "Creation of All Things" to recreate Kakashi's eye out of thin air and reversing the certain death after effects of opening the 8th Gate that were going to turn Might Guy to literal ash.

So the basic gist of this upgrade is that the TSBs should be considered Reality Warping with a few distinct applications that will be highlighted next in individual sections to simplify and organize things.

Power Nullification:

When Ying-Yang Release IS applied to them, they gain their Ninjutsu Nullifying powers, but since we've already went over their Power Nullification ability extensively in the most recent ability thread, I won't get into it here to avoid redundancy and overblowing this thread more than is necessary.

Still, while we're at it, I should mention that the accepted new justification for the Power Nullification of the TSB hasn't been applied to any of the profiles except Madara's. So we might as well apply it for all the others as it's an extremely simple change:

Power Nullification (The Truth Seeking Balls negate and erase all Ninjutsu, which includes energy and elemental based attacks, Edo Tensei, and Dust Release to name a few, with the exception of those imbued with natural energy)

Void Manipulation, Existence Erasure, and/or more potential shenanigans:

The TSBs have the ability to erase objects upon contact as we've seen pointed out, or implied, on multiple occasions by reliable sources.

We have even witnessed this erasure on a few subtle occasions. For instance, when Obito erased part of Sasuke's Susano'o when it came into contact with it. It was also seemingly capable of creating a Vacuum in the area it expanded in.

This is interestting because, as we've meticulously debated and proven on this thread, Chakra is partially or entirely comprised of soul-like energy, and far as I'm aware destroying souls is partial proof for Existence Erasure, or at the very least Soul Manipulation or Non-Physical Interaction. There's further proof for them interacting with souls as well......

Sooooooooooooo, the Minato thing.......

I know what you're thinking, but I promise you I won't use the Minato example to prove outright Soul Destruction. I know that it's accepted as a Power Null feat, and I'm completely content with that. The thing is, there's an overlooked aspect of that feat. In order for him to disconnect that arm via the Power Null properties of the TSB, Obito still had to make contact with Minato's soul with the TSB in order to disconnect it physically, which I believe would still be potentially enough to award Soul Manipulation or at least Non-Physical Interaction because he's interacting with the soul and affecting it to an extent, even if he's not destroying it outright.


Another interesting feat is that Obito also seemingly erased Amaterasu, a flame that never goes out under normal circumstances, on more than one occasion. (Even when it was previously enveloping him completely)

Now if you've read this far and you're still not entirely convinced of this prospect, well, I can't entirely blame you in all honesty. The whole thing is a bit wonky and admittedly requires a few leaps due to the ambiguous/dubious nature of the TSB (Oh wow, an ambiguous and ill-defined Naruto ability? Shocking, I know......). Worry not though, friends, because I came prepared with even more evidence.

This evidence comes in the form of Kaguya's Expansive Truth Seeking Ball. As we all know, it is currently accepted that, with this ETSB, Kaguya was going to completely eradicate her Root Dimension and recreate it. The destruction was going to be so thorough to the point that Kakashi mentioned that they would not be able to return to the dimension again, which all but confirms that the Space-Time was going to be eradicated as well. If that's not enough for you, we also have Zetsu's statement confirming that it will be the start of a new Space-Time, and the Databook confirming that the world was going to come to "naught", which all confirms that the dimension was going to be completely annihilated down to its Space-Time, and then recreated. This is obvious and blatant proof for Space-Time Manipulation and/or Void Manipulation I believe. I feel like Void Manipulation encompasses all of the previous evidence I pointed out in the previous section as well, since it covers the destruction of Matter, Souls, Space, Time, and more, so I think it's honestly too convenient to pass up IMHO.


Now I'm sure you're all wondering exactly how all of this translates to normal TSBs and isn't simply exclusive to Kaguya's ETSB? Well, luckily we have two confirmations, courtesy of both the Manga and the Databook, that the TSBs on Naruto's back are exactly the same as the one Kaguya created, with the only difference obviously being it's much larger size. The manga even went through the trouble of explaining to us that they're comprised of exactly the same elements, and as such it's only logical that they share the exact same properties.


Space-Time Manipulation:

Yeah......Kaguya's ETSB was going to create a new Time-Space.....as stated by Zetsu. Idk what else to tell you lol. It should be a pretty simple prospect, so I hope it won't get unnecessarily overcomplicated. but it wouldn't be a Naruto CRT otherwise, am I rite?


Transmutation:

This sub-ability is probably the one we have the most showings for, so I'll simply list all the relevant examples that I've come across.



Conclusions:

That's really about it. I hope we can all come to an amicable conclusion to this topic once and for all, so it can finally be put to rest for all eternity. I feel like I've provided sufficient proof that the TSBs are not only a slightly better version of Onoki's Dust Release, but are actually so much more. If my own personal conclusions were the sole deciding factor here, I'd say that Kaguya's ETSB should be awarded Void Manipulation, Space-Time Manipulation, and Non-Physical Interaction, with the regular TSBs scaling to that due to the statement that they're the exact same and due to their own feats. I'm honestly fine with the regular TSBs getting a "Likely" rating for these abilities if that's something you guys feel is necessary. Regardless of whether we choose Existence Erasure, Void Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Non-Phyiscal Interaction, Space-Time Manipulation, a combination of some of them, or even all of them (Too optimistic, I know), I'll leave up to you guys to decide. This is all obviously highly contentious, so we'll only reach a suitable conclusion through debating.


In essence, I think the TSB justifications should look something like this (up for debate, naturally):

Reality Warping (The TSBs are partially comprised of Yin-Yang Release, which is capable of altering reality in a variety of ways) which allows for: Void Manipulation and Existence Erasure (Can erase Ninjutsu, people, space-time, and matter), Non-Physical Interaction (capable of interacting with Minato's soul), Transmutation (Can be altered into a variety of shapes, sizes, states of matter and more), and Space-Time Manipulation (Capable of creating new Time-Spaces)


Finally, depending on our conclusions here, I'm sure this could also affect the characters' Resistances, so that's probably something we'll have to go over when all is said and done.




Note #1: Kaguya should get Fusionism for being able to fuse with her dimensions. It was brought to my attention that this was already accepted before, but never got applied.


Note #2: Massive thanks to @Rocker1189 for all of his help with this thread.
 
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I'm not sure if having those abilities actually gives you Reality Warping, otherwise I know a thousand profiles that should have (lol), but otherwise, I agree with everything, really nice job boi
 
In order for him to disconnect that arm via the Power Null properties of the TSB, Obito still had to make contact with Minato's soul with the TSB in order to disconnect it physically

I don't buy that. I think he just needed to make physical contact with the physical body that Minato has at that moment.

EDIT: Kaguya have Space-Time Manipulation with the ETSO is one thing. I don't think that means every TSO user should get Space-Time Manipulation.
 
I'm not sure if having those abilities actually gives you Reality Warping, otherwise I know a thousand profiles that should have (lol), but otherwise, I agree with everything, really nice job boi
No lol, that's not what I'm proposing at all. The point is that the Reality Warping offers those specific abilities, not the other way around.
 
EDIT: Kaguya have Space-Time Manipulation with the ETSO is one thing. I don't think that means every TSO
Why not? Like I already mentioned in the OP, the ETSO is exactly the same as the regular TSO aside from its size.

I'd also like to point out that the ETSO was going to destroy the dimension by expanding to its boundaries, so it was going to destroy it by contact, just like all of the TSO abilities are performed through contact, so imo it's not that hard to imagine that if the regular TSO was that big (which is the whole point) it would be able to do the same.

Long story short, the ETSO doesn't have any extra or different property that allows it to destroy Space-Time other than its size.


Btw, what do you think about the rest of the OP?
 
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Long story short, the ETSO doesn't have any extra or different property that allows it to destroy Space-Time other than its size.

How do we know that? It's not like it's ever stated that if an ordinary TSO is increased in size enough that it can destroy or create dimensions.

Even if that's possible, no user of a TSO has shown the ability to turn it into an ETSO. So there'd be no way for them to use the Space-Time Manipulation part of it even if that was theoretically possible.

Nowhere has a TSO been seen to destroy space or time just by being used normally. Giving each of them Space-Time Manipulation just based on Kaguya using a similar technique doesn't seem right to me.
 
Giving each of them Space-Time Manipulation just based on Kaguya using a similar technique doesn't seem right to me.
The thing is, it's not a similar ability, it's literally the same ability just used on a larger scale.

If I have a pocket knife laced with poison, and a long-sword laced with the same type of poison, would we argue that there's any fundamental difference between them aside from the obvious difference in size and range? Not my best analogy, but I'm sure you get the idea.
 
How do we know that? It's not like it's ever stated that if an ordinary TSO is increased in size enough that it can destroy or create dimensions.
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I mean the ETSO was never stated to have anything special about it but it's size. So I dont think it is a stretch to assume that the smaller ones have the same property (they literally do, all chakra natures and yin-yang release) the bigger one has nothing more to it but its size.
 
The thing is, it's not a similar ability, it's literally the same ability just used on a larger scale.

If I have a pocket knife laced with poison, and a long-sword laced with the same type of poison, would we argue that there's any fundamental difference between them aside from the obvious difference in size and range? Not my best analogy, but I'm sure you get the idea.
What if your sword doesn't become laced in poison until it extends to certain size?
 
What if your sword doesn't become laced in poison until it extends to certain size?
It would be quite problematic. Thankfully no such limitation was ever placed on the TSB, or even remotely implied, quite the opposite in fact.
All I see in my mind is Itachi and Mina Ashido preparing to fight with poison-laced swords, and this is the section where they're just pointing swords at each other and doing verbal back-and-forth banter.

I'm weird like that.

Also, don't like this post.
 
Anyway, the main things I'm disagreeing with this proposal is the Soul Manipulation, Non-Physical Interaction and Space-Time Manipulation.
 
Nowhere is it implied that the TSB (without being a ETSB) is capable of erasing space or time.
It is when they literally say it's the same, and specifically point out that the only difference is the size.

Let's think of it this way, we have a spell that can perform a specific action on a universal scale, let's say Existence Erasure for example. Then we get a planetary variant of that spell, that's pointed out specifically to have the exact same attributes other than it's apparent range. Would it really be much of a stretch then to say that the planetary variant can perform EE as well?
Again, quite literally the size is the only difference here. It's made from the same elements, behaves in the same way, and was pointed out (twice) in canon material to be the same ability.

I mean really, what is an ETSB at the end of the day? Simply a Truth Seeking Ball that expands continuously, that's it.
 
I think there's a limit to how many abilities we can throw onto a character just because we think they make sense without being confirmed.

Saying that Naruto and Madara could destroy and create dimensions on their profiles... yeah, I don't think that's a good thing to add.
 
I think there's a limit to how many abilities we can throw onto a character just because we think they make sense without being confirmed.

Saying that Naruto and Madara could destroy and create dimensions on their profiles... yeah, I don't think that's a good thing to add.
My intention wasn't to say that they can create or destroy dimensions of that size, because their TSBs haven't been shown to grow that large.

All I'm trying to get out of this is to index the fact that they can affect Space-Time using their TSBs, for purely indexing purposes. I don't even think it would be combat applicable probably (with the exception of Kaguya obviously).
 
Reality warping seems a bit iffy to me. Other than i agree with the rest. Just cause a jutsu has yin yang release does'nt mean it alters reality. Yin yang release has been shown to be used for various things from altering reality(creation of all things) to empowering existing jutsu( sasuke with his chidori) and etsb has'nt been hinted anywhere in the manga to alter reality to achieve its effects. Since tsb is said to have all chakra natures including the ones for particle style ( earth, fire and wind) the addition of yin yang chakra could just be amplifying the effects of the particle style to be more potent. I'm just saying it could be a possibility.
 
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