Xenoverse and Heroes possible separation

[Nullflowerblush]

Heroes does not have any statement of its Multiverse encompassing infinite possibilities like Xenoverse does. Unless a statement of infinite universes/timespaces/possibilities existing in Heroes is out there, all they have to work off of is the Crimson-Masked Saiyan claiming he visited countless timespaces, and Trunks in the original manga stating that every action creates a few future timeline, essentially causing an endless creation of timelines, but not an infinite one.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

That's an infinitely expanding multiverse though...

a multiverse that creates timelines ad infinitum, but which number never "reaches" infinity

 

[Orange]

But that is what 2-B
countless space times [which either means countless U7s or Countless Timelines, so take it as you will]
Plus every action creates a new future
you only need infinite amount of time to reach infinite times

 

[Ss3micah]

Heroes does not have any statement of its Multiverse encompassing infinite possibilities like Xenoverse does. Unless a statement of infinite universes/timespaces/possibilities existing in Heroes is out there, all they have to work off of is the Crimson-Masked Saiyan claiming he visited countless timespaces, and Trunks in the original manga stating that every action creates a few future timeline, essentially causing an endless creation of timelines, but not an infinite one.

I said it before and I'll say it again
The Crack of time and the multiverse are different structures

The multiverse expands infinitely ad infinitum with no end in reach nor in sight
While the crack of time has all the timelines and all the worlds that would have been created and will created and have already been created and already created by and during the infinite expansion already existing and present within it
So even if the multiverse is 2B the crack of time is still 2A

 

[Orange]

2-B multiverse with crack of time being 2-A, I agree

 

[Nullflowerblush]

you only need infinite amount of time to reach infinite times

How do you reach infinite time then?

 

[Orange]

How do you reach infinite time then?

By having infinite time, existing for infinite time etc...

 

[Rez]

Aren't they 2-A because of Budokai tenkachi? So the 2-A should still be the same only power's and abilities section will be affected for the most part by this

 

[Orange]

1- that isn't canon

 

[Dominodalek]

Aren't they 2-A because of Budokai tenkachi? So the 2-A should still be the same only power's and abilities section will be affected for the most part by this

The Budokai Tenkaichi series has absolutely nothing to do with Heroes.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

It would be impossible for time to stretch onto infinity. Infinity is not a goal point—it either exists or it doesn't. Using "fiction logic" as a scapegoat is not valid, as without confirmation that infinite actions have been made; that infinite possibilities can or have been realized; and that there is an infinitely branched Multiverse contained within the Crack of Time, you cannot logically prove that there are infinite timelines to be conceived. The Crack of Time may encompass all that there will ever be, but unless you can prove otherwise with irrefutable evidence, all there will ever be is an uncountable 2-B cosmology—the "Xenoverse curse". ~ Nullflowerblush

In case you were wondering, the "Xenoverse curse" is referring to the state in which Xenoverse and Heroes characters were in a year ago, in which they were relegated to an uncountable 2-B, because the English version of Xenoverse 2 had the Time Patrollers using future tense when explaining that history was infinitely expansive, and not past tense like the Japanese raw-to-English translation that the Wiki uses currently. And, now that I think about it, where exactly does that "Crack of Time contains everything, past, present, and future" thing come from?

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

If Xenoverse and Heroes do not share the same verse, then yeah, splitting up the profiles would be good

Agree

 

[Bernkastelll]

Just a question, why was this a banned topic?

 

[Ss3micah]

In case you were wondering, the "Xenoverse curse" is referring to the state in which Xenoverse and Heroes characters were in a year ago, in which they were relegated to an uncountable 2-B, because the English version of Xenoverse 2 had the Time Patrollers using future tense when explaining that history was infinitely expansive, and not past tense like the Japanese raw-to-English translation that the Wiki uses currently. And, now that I think about it, where exactly does that "Crack of Time contains everything, past, present, and future" thing come from?

Read this
Read through this then come back later

 

[Braking]

Read this

read what

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Read this
Read through this then come back later

What am I to look for specifically? What point are you trying to counter? That makes it much easier for me to go through this.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I skimmed through the thread, and all they did was argue over whether or not "infinitely branched" or "infinitely branching" was the correct translation of the line for two weeks. Again, this has nothing to do with Heroes.

And again, the "Xenoverse curse" was referring to their past state, not their current state.

 

[Ss3micah]

In case you were wondering, the "Xenoverse curse" is referring to the state in which Xenoverse and Heroes characters were in a year ago

Alots happened since then

, in which they were relegated to an uncountable 2-B, because the English version of Xenoverse 2 had the Time Patrollers using future tense when explaining that history was infinitely expansive, and not past tense like the Japanese raw-to-English translation that the Wiki uses currently

During the the thread, they argued over infinitely branching and infinitely branched. Infinitely Branched was decided and hence 2A xenoverse

. And, now that I think about it, where exactly does that "Crack of Time contains everything, past, present, and future" thing come from?

Xenoverse games

 

[Chasekilleen]

In case you were wondering, the "Xenoverse curse" is referring to the state in which Xenoverse and Heroes characters were in a year ago, in which they were relegated to an uncountable 2-B, because the English version of Xenoverse 2 had the Time Patrollers using future tense when explaining that history was infinitely expansive, and not past tense like the Japanese raw-to-English translation that the Wiki uses currently. And, now that I think about it, where exactly does that "Crack of Time contains everything, past, present, and future" thing come from?

So Xenoverse's infinite universe in Nihongo has always seem a bit weird to me.
I'm very sure that it isn't future tense, I just first wanted to clarify if we are on the same page or not?
You are referring to this quote correct? まあ、歴史なんて無限に枝分かれしてるうえに　どの歴史どう正しいかなんて分からないしね。

枝分かれしてる is in the state of branching. The してる is the eating, running equivalent, meaning what you are doing in the state of the moment.
If you want past tense then it is 枝分かれしちゃった。Meaning it is completely finished doing its branching state.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Alots happened since then

You are really not getting it.

Xenoverse and Heroes were previously stuck in 2-B, because they are previously thought to scale to an infinitely branching cosmology. While Xenoverse has managed to pick up its slack, Heroes has not.

Heroes does not have any statement of its Multiverse encompassing infinite possibilities like Xenoverse does. Unless a statement of infinite universes/timespaces/possibilities existing in Heroes is out there, all they have to work off of is the Crimson-Masked Saiyan claiming he visited countless timespaces, and Trunks in the original manga stating that every action creates a few future timeline, essentially causing an endless creation of timelines, but not an infinite one.

Heroes does not have an infinitely branched history statement, or any suggestion that there are infinite possibilities to be explored like in Xenoverse. The Crack of Time is incapable of being a 2-A structure, because there is not an infinite amount of possibilities to be realized.

The Crack of Time may encompass all that there will ever be, but unless you can prove otherwise with irrefutable evidence, all there will ever be is an uncountable 2-B cosmology

Unless we get explicit confirmation (i.e., statements, visuals, etc.) that there are infinite timelines or infinite possible futures within Heroes' cosmology, then it is impossible to stretch its current 2-B cosmology into a 2-A Crack of Time.

Td;lr—if the Crack of Time can contain every past, present, and future timeline; and there is not an infinite amount of any of those; then it cannot be 2-A. As of the writing of this message, Heroes has only presented a 2-B cosmology; every action creates a new future, and it is impossible for infinite actions to occur, meaning that it is impossible for infinite futures to be created—we're stuck with an uncountable number of futures.

 

[Vietthai96]

Lmao, this again.
Still, Xenoverse and Heroes is different continuity, that a fact
On the other hand, Xenoverse character abilities still retain in Heroes

 

[Nullflowerblush]

On the other hand, Xenoverse character abilities still retain in Heroes

Care to explain why?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

So Xenoverse's infinite universe in Nihongo has always seem a bit weird to me.
I'm very sure that it isn't future tense, I just first wanted to clarify if we are on the same page or not?
You are referring to this quote correct? まあ、歴史なんて無限に枝分かれしてるうえに　どの歴史どう正しいかなんて分からないしね。

枝分かれしてる is in the state of branching. The してる is the eating, running equivalent, meaning what you are doing in the state of the moment.
If you want past tense then it is 枝分かれしちゃった。Meaning it is completely finished doing its branching state.

An entire downgrade thread was made on this a 2 months ago, and it was debunked.
Xeno is still 2A

 

[sanicspood]

but dbh doesn’t have any 2-a statements so…..

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Xeno is still 2A

 

[sanicspood]

not for long

 

[sanicspood]

wait u meant xenoverse

nvm

 

[StrymULTRA]

SS4 Gohan would have 2A Durability

Uhm. No. In Dragon Ball stonewalls can't be a thing because how Ki works, so Gohan either scales or it's a outlier.

 

[Antvasima]

So does anybody have a plan for how we should apply this revision?

Also, there was talk about a thread ban for this topic above? Does that mean that there is a rule for this written in the wiki?

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

So does anybody have a plan for how we should apply this revision?

Also, there was talk about a thread ban for this topic above? Does that mean that there is a rule for this written in the wiki?

It's written in the DB games page notes.

"Despite several characters appearing in both, Dragon Ball Heroes and Dragon Ball Xenoverse do not share a continuity. However we do scale most Xenoverse feats and statements to Heroes, just not vice versa, due to the nature of Heroes incorporating virtually every part of Dragon ball media into itself, and treating the real world world like our own, where the various DB media exists as stories, games etc.

We consider all official Dragon Ball Heroes and Super Dragon Ball Heroes media to be usable for the relevant profiles, however the arcade version is considered the "Primary Canon" and takes precedent over the others if direct contradictions need to be resolved (this does not mean events that deviate or expand upon the story in other media are unusable however).

It is true that there are some inconsistencies among the various different DBH media such as the arcade, promotional anime, promotional manga based on the arcade, Ultimate mission story, Ultimate mission 2 story, Ultimate Mission X story, World Mission story, promotional trailers, Victory mission manga etc. However if you tried to split it into a dozen separate continuities it would not make Heroes consistent, which is one of the main goals of separating continuities in the first place, and it would flood the wiki with a half dozen unnecessary versions of Heroes characters that are virtually identical, while vastly increasing the work needed to upkeep the profiles. Not to mention even within the same media it would still have many inconsistencies often times as well. Furthermore, until Super Dragon Ball Heroes, it was only ever meant to be a loosely connected series of separate scenarios, never a consistent ongoing story in the first place, so trying to make it such is an exercise in futility. As such it has been decided that the best course of action is to accept the fact that Dragon Ball Heroes is inherently somewhat inconsistent, and that all it's media is usable.

DO NOT attempt to split DBH into many continuities, even if there are inconsistencies, or try to claim that other DB media such as alternate DBH content, games like Xenoverse, the anime and manga etc. can't be used for scaling things like cosmology or skills to the Heroes counterparts. This argument has been discussed multiple times and thoroughly rejected, with the current standards being accepted, for reasons above, among others."

Edit: The note itself was accepted here

 

[Nullflowerblush]

That's nonsensical?

Furthermore, until Super Dragon Ball Heroes, it was only ever meant to be a loosely connected series of separate scenarios, never a consistent ongoing story in the first place, so trying to make it such is an exercise in futility.

Well, now it's an ongoing story, and we should base the profiles off of said ongoing story, like we do with everything else.
Boom. I just solved the Life Equation.

EDIT: There are only two logical ways of going about this. We either base the characters exclusively off of the current ongoing story (GM to BBM; Super Dragon Ball Heroes), or we keep up this "Everything is canon" mentality and just make the Heroes pages composites of all of their appearances in the games, including the region-locked ones (UM1-X), and the ones with their own unique story (WM), even though they hold no barring on the main story that the Arcade is currently trying to tell.

But, why would we ever do that when, once again, this is the Dragon Ball Heroes story—it's the plot of the Arcade game's Story Mode, the plot of the manga adaptations, and the plot of the promotional anime, all of which are currently ongoing. It only makes sense to focus on that story, like how we only (or rather, "supposed to") focus on the Z anime with Goku's Toei page.

The note goes on and on about how removing the spinoffs (UM, VM, WM)—all of which are explicitly stated to introduce inconsistencies the sentence prior—would make Heroes as a whole inconsistent, which is quite simply idiotic—no offense. It's very easy to split Heroes into multiple continuities like it currently is supposed to be; there is no need to create a bunch of duplicates of Xeno Goku, because they're all the same guy—the only difference is: one of them originates from the Primary Canon.

It's. Simple.

 

[ThanatosX]

It's written in the DB games page notes.

"Despite several characters appearing in both, Dragon Ball Heroes and Dragon Ball Xenoverse do not share a continuity. However we do scale most Xenoverse feats and statements to Heroes, just not vice versa, due to the nature of Heroes incorporating virtually every part of Dragon ball media into itself, and treating the real world world like our own, where the various DB media exists as stories, games etc.

We consider all official Dragon Ball Heroes and Super Dragon Ball Heroes media to be usable for the relevant profiles, however the arcade version is considered the "Primary Canon" and takes precedent over the others if direct contradictions need to be resolved (this does not mean events that deviate or expand upon the story in other media are unusable however).

It is true that there are some inconsistencies among the various different DBH media such as the arcade, promotional anime, promotional manga based on the arcade, Ultimate mission story, Ultimate mission 2 story, Ultimate Mission X story, World Mission story, promotional trailers, Victory mission manga etc. However if you tried to split it into a dozen separate continuities it would not make Heroes consistent, which is one of the main goals of separating continuities in the first place, and it would flood the wiki with a half dozen unnecessary versions of Heroes characters that are virtually identical, while vastly increasing the work needed to upkeep the profiles. Not to mention even within the same media it would still have many inconsistencies often times as well. Furthermore, until Super Dragon Ball Heroes, it was only ever meant to be a loosely connected series of separate scenarios, never a consistent ongoing story in the first place, so trying to make it such is an exercise in futility. As such it has been decided that the best course of action is to accept the fact that Dragon Ball Heroes is inherently somewhat inconsistent, and that all it's media is usable.

DO NOT attempt to split DBH into many continuities, even if there are inconsistencies, or try to claim that other DB media such as alternate DBH content, games like Xenoverse, the anime and manga etc. can't be used for scaling things like cosmology or skills to the Heroes counterparts. This argument has been discussed multiple times and thoroughly rejected, with the current standards being accepted, for reasons above, among others."

Edit: The note itself was accepted here

The problem is that, despite the note, the cross scaling between Heroes and Xenoverse is still applied.

Heroes is 2-A because of Xenoverse, otherwise it would be 2-B, but there is nothing that indicates that the scaling should be applied in the first place.

 

[Antvasima]

It's written in the DB games page notes.

"Despite several characters appearing in both, Dragon Ball Heroes and Dragon Ball Xenoverse do not share a continuity. However we do scale most Xenoverse feats and statements to Heroes, just not vice versa, due to the nature of Heroes incorporating virtually every part of Dragon ball media into itself, and treating the real world world like our own, where the various DB media exists as stories, games etc.

We consider all official Dragon Ball Heroes and Super Dragon Ball Heroes media to be usable for the relevant profiles, however the arcade version is considered the "Primary Canon" and takes precedent over the others if direct contradictions need to be resolved (this does not mean events that deviate or expand upon the story in other media are unusable however).

It is true that there are some inconsistencies among the various different DBH media such as the arcade, promotional anime, promotional manga based on the arcade, Ultimate mission story, Ultimate mission 2 story, Ultimate Mission X story, World Mission story, promotional trailers, Victory mission manga etc. However if you tried to split it into a dozen separate continuities it would not make Heroes consistent, which is one of the main goals of separating continuities in the first place, and it would flood the wiki with a half dozen unnecessary versions of Heroes characters that are virtually identical, while vastly increasing the work needed to upkeep the profiles. Not to mention even within the same media it would still have many inconsistencies often times as well. Furthermore, until Super Dragon Ball Heroes, it was only ever meant to be a loosely connected series of separate scenarios, never a consistent ongoing story in the first place, so trying to make it such is an exercise in futility. As such it has been decided that the best course of action is to accept the fact that Dragon Ball Heroes is inherently somewhat inconsistent, and that all it's media is usable.

DO NOT attempt to split DBH into many continuities, even if there are inconsistencies, or try to claim that other DB media such as alternate DBH content, games like Xenoverse, the anime and manga etc. can't be used for scaling things like cosmology or skills to the Heroes counterparts. This argument has been discussed multiple times and thoroughly rejected, with the current standards being accepted, for reasons above, among others."

Edit: The note itself was accepted here

Hmm. The note seems to make sense to me.

Is there something that we should change while still following its advice?

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Hmm. The note seems to make sense to me.

Is there something that we should change while still following its advice?

I mean frankly speaking I don't really see how anything would change really. XV and Heroes are treated as separate continuities already. Xenoverse Demigra and Heroes Demigra have their separate keys aswell. So far going by the note's advice, I see no changes. I also did ask SSJRyu1's input (The one who recommended this note) and his stance also hasn't changed.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Should we close this thread in lack of better options then?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Hmm. The note seems to make sense to me.

Is there something that we should change while still following its advice?

We shouldn't follow it in the first place as it was done to prevent any possible downgrade that follows how the continuities work. Plus discussion bans work as long as new arguments aren't shown, and there are now.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Also lol at the immense strawman. I suggested to make just the division in

• Main Heroes (Arcade as main canon, Anime/Manga as secondary canon)
• UMX
• DBH Switch game I forgot the name
• Xenoverse

 

[Dominodalek]

Okay. Should we close this thread in lack of better options then?

Whoa, no, we have better options, which are the things that the vast majority of people in this topic have agreed upon. I hardly think we should be allowing a single user to completely block an area of discussion, especially when his arguments for doing so have been thoroughly refuted.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

There are only two logical ways of going about this. We either base the characters exclusively off of the current ongoing story (GM to BBM; Super Dragon Ball Heroes), or we keep up this "Everything is canon" mentality and just make the Heroes pages composites of all of their appearances in the games, including the region-locked ones (UM1-X), and the ones with their own unique story (WM), even though they hold no barring on the main story that the Arcade is currently trying to tell.

But, why would we ever do that when, once again, this is the Dragon Ball Heroes story—it's the plot of the Arcade game's Story Mode, the plot of the manga adaptations, and the plot of the promotional anime, all of which are currently ongoing. It only makes sense to focus on that story, like how we only (or rather, "supposed to") focus on the Z anime with Goku's Toei page.

The note goes on and on about how removing the spinoffs (UM, VM, WM)—all of which are explicitly stated to introduce inconsistencies the sentence prior—would make Heroes as a whole inconsistent, which is quite simply idiotic—no offense. It's very easy to split Heroes into multiple continuities like it currently is supposed to be; there is no need to create a bunch of duplicates of Xeno Goku, because they're all the same guy—the only difference is: one of them originates from the Primary Canon.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Also lol at the immense strawman. I suggested to make just the division in

• Main Heroes (Arcade as main canon, Anime/Manga as secondary canon)
• UMX
• DBH Switch game I forgot the name
• Xenoverse

This seems the best option to me tbf