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Wizard101 Downgrades Part 1: AP and Tiering

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ZephyrosOmega

ZephyrosOmega

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Wizard101 is a confusing and convoluted verse where all the lore and evidence is hidden behind 20 forums and a paywall.

Establishing the Basics
I'm going to be very blunt. This should never have been accepted and the verse should never have gone above 2-B, let alone as high into 2-A as it is.

https://character-stats-and-profiles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Zenkaibattery1/Wizard101_Cosmology Before anything, I should note that this cosmology blog was listed as "official" evidence when the verse was upgraded to 2-A because it was put into a community post once. I'm going to spoil you right now and tell you that much of the supposed evidence for many of this series' feats come from unreliable and unofficial sources.

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3687509

Here is the thread, by the way.

Bartleby's statement that there are countless worlds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZOeXjS9qzo&feature=youtu.be&t=2m9s

When I began this blog I did not expect Bartleby's voice to sound like that. So,

"There are countless worlds on the spiral. Wizard City is just the first." - Bartleby

Obviously, this is a pretty solid statement on its own. However, it also falls apart when considering that "Worlds" in Wizard101 doesn't refer to universes, but rather to planets. One of these "Worlds" is just a city, as Bartleby himself even states. Now, the cosmology blog states that each world is its own timeline, but that's entirely unsourced and only really helps 2-B exist, which is fine.

Obviously, the Spiral refers to the Universe and has been stated as such before (I'm getting some serious Kingdom Hearts vibes from this and I do NOT like it), so that's fine. Once again, the problems lie in HOW high they are into 2-A.

Problems with the Reverie
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3782187 This thread came out around a month after Wizard101 was upgraded to 2-A, in a thread that didn't have nearly enough discussion to it.

"Now the Reverie is a gateway to the world of dreams. Each dream a mortal has is its own dimension which is the size of the universe.

How do we know dreams are the size of a universe? Well, when we enter Mellori's dream world where she is looking at a past version of herself, you can see galaxies in the background not too long after (Also, Mellori also implies this is a completley different world from the real world "you go back to the real world!")

With this, we know each dream is its own world the size of a universe, since there are galaxies in the background."

It has been well-established by this point that having galaxies doesn't make something a universe, nor do statements of being "An alternate reality". This would make Dream Worlds at best 3-B, as established by DarkDragonMedeus:

These statements are not enough to call them universes; they may support the ideas when backed up by examples above, but none of them individually or altogether may be enough.

  • Having a starry sky may qualify as being a 4-A sized pocket reality, but not enough to be a universe without more evidence.
  • Having multiple galaxies within it should qualify as a 3-B sized pocket reality, but not enough to be a universe without more context or evidence.
  • A realm having time that works somewhat differently is not enough to be considered a Universe as nonlinear time within a single universe exists. And the realm should still have a confirmed appropriate size to back it up.
  • The Worlds being different bodies of space is not enough to consider them universes, as that does not quite prove they have different timelines. Especially if they are afterlives. Afterlives often are different bodies of space, but are generally condensed in the time timeline unless there's more proof otherwise.
  • Being "Different Worlds, Realms, or Dimensions" requires more elaborate context and even "Dreams, Imaginations and Ideas becoming reality" is not enough to say the "Worlds" are entire universes. "Becoming Reality" often simply refers more to "Becoming a piece of reality" as opposed to each and every Dream becoming an "Entire Reality".
Different body of space? Check. Called another reality? Check. Having multiple galaxies? Check.

To put it frankly, the threads established nothing to definitively call the dream worlds universes, and the only thing agreed on in the thread was over semantics about whether or not "Endless" could be considered enough evidence for 2-A or not.

https://imgur.com/a/hqp7qTt

"Here are some other dimensions in the game, each universal in size."

Nothing seems to state any of these dimensions being universal, and if it's for the same reasons as the Reverie, I already established why that doesn't apply.

https://imgur.com/a/hKFSkNk

Problems with The Five Boxes Event
Now, onto the timelines themselves. First we have to look at statements that confirm the existence of other worlds/dimensions

https://imgur.com/a/nl8QPYE

Firstly, when we are travelling back in time to find a world door a mysterious voice says "from another time, and another world."

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...0px-28Quest29_Forging_A_Legend_Dialogue_7.png

An Arcanum professor states "its construction shows techniques from multiple worlds. Even different dimensions"

Word of God also agrees that there are other timelines.

https://youtu.be/kza_x_JHr4Q?t=459

7:40 - 7:50: Prehaps the most important. Here, in this quest right before this statement, we travel back to the past to fix issues in Dragonspyre. The professor states "I have seen that timeline, in it, the Dragonspyre academy sweeps through the Spiral"

He is quite clearly referencing that past we just visited as a different timeline. In that timeline specifically, the Dragonspyre army has taken over the Spiral (The Universe). And obviously, in our timeline the universe is fine. This means, each past is its own timeline.

"This means, each past is its own timeline." is the part I most want your attention focused on, because this isn't true.

https://www.wizard101.com/game/five-boxes-event

Here's the official page for Wizard101's Five Boxes Event (The event where all of the above comes from). According to the page, "Someone, or something, is threatening to unravel much of what we know as true and fact ― by nudging certain events, twisting others, and threatening to destroy yet more, this force puts Wizard City and all worlds of the Spiral at risk!"

I don't think much more needs to be said about that here, but it helps disprove the last point to go over.

All of this amounts to one thing: Timelines exist. Yes, they do. However, the evidence to suggest an infinite number is... interesting, let's just say.

Problems with the Sands of Time
https://imgur.com/a/vIH8hrp

Here, it is stated each grain of sand is a moment in the Spiral's history. History, as per definition, refers to the past. Meaning, each grain is its own past.

https://imgur.com/a/IHsRlM4

These sands, according to Grandmother Raven, the wisest character in the game as well as the narrator, states that the sands of time are endless.

How exactly does one make this jump? I also find it very interesting that this thread left out This blog, which according to the "Level of 2-A" blog is incredibly important.

What this blog states is that "Each grain is a moment in the Spiral's past, present, or future, and it falls in according with how time should flow". That's entirely different from what was stated in the thread, and it's an incredibly important distinction.

Personally, I find it very misleading to cherry-pick a single part of the quote, but I will explain further rather than making random accusations. Obviously it was stated that there are endless grains of sand, but that's contradicted by what we're actually shown. One can certainly claim gameplay-story segregation, but that doesn't help things.

"It falls in according with how time will flow" indicates not that each grain of sand is its own separate timeline, but rather that each grain is a tiny part of a singular timeline, something that makes far more sense considering that Grandfather Spider was going to reverse time by reversing the flow of sands.

"as shown and stated by Grandmother Raven, the narrator of the game; each time we return to the Sands of Time, we are told there is a greater extent of endless sands present, bringing forth an endless cycle of creations of infinite timelines."

Obviously, what's above proves this to be untrue. A greater extent of sands present obviously thus refers to the singular timeline that the player themself is in extending, AKA... you know... how Time works.

Summary
Wizard101 is not "2-A * 2-A * 2-A lol". That's a ridiculous fabrication based off of misleading evidence, twisting words, and cherry-picking quotes to suit the idea of the upgrade. They aren't that far above baseline, if they're even 2-A at all, as that entire argument was only based off of the semantics of one word. Final proposal:

All god tiers of Wizard 101 should be downgraded from "At least 2-A" to "At least 2-B, possibly 2-A", or at the absolute best, simply "2-A". This would affect the Range, Attack Potency, Durability, and Striking Strength

For attack potency, the justification would be "The spiral is stated to have an endless and possibly infinite number of worlds, each with its own timeline", or something similar. The exact specifics of what gets put on the pages isn't my job.

Discuss!

Agree: ZacharyGrossman273, Zaratthustra

Disagree:

Neutral:
 
I should also note that, going by past threads, most of the revisions for the verse are never finished, making it unusually difficult to sift through it all.
 
ZacharyGrossman273 said:
You forgot the hax stuff, but I agree
Click to expand...
I'll get into the Hax stuff at a later time. I don't want to clog up the thread with too much stuff at once, and the hax is going to be a LOT harder to get into.
 
Zenkai and I will be responding soon going over the various points.

What is clear however is that we haven't done a very good job explaining things.

As far as hax is concerned I'd appreciate it if you could ask me about the ones you have trouble with first. There are a lot of instances where we would look over spells and try to find the closest approximation in accordance to the wiki only to later find something far more accurate to the descriptions of it so I may be inclined to agree/disagree.
 
It is quite amusing you come at the upgrades for cherry-picking, and yet you go ahead and do it yourself. Also quite funny how I invited you to a 1 on 1 debate but whatever

Here is the thread, by the way.

"Bartleby's statement that there are countless worlds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZOeXjS9qzo&feature=youtu.be&t=2m9s

When I began this blog I did not expect Bartleby's voice to sound like that. So,

"There are countless worlds on the spiral. Wizard City is just the first." - Bartleby

Obviously, this is a pretty solid statement on its own. However, it also falls apart when considering that "Worlds" in Wizard101 doesn't refer to universes, but rather to planets. One of these "Worlds" is just a city, as Bartleby himself even states. Now, the cosmology blog states that each world is its own timeline, but that's entirely unsourced and only really helps 2-B exist, which is fine.

Obviously, the Spiral refers to the Universe and has been stated as such before (I'm getting some serious Kingdom Hearts vibes from this and I do NOT like it), so that's fine. Once again, the problems lie in HOW high they are into 2-A."

This part is irrelevant as it obviously refers to planets. I had problems with the statement meaning universes but it ended up irrelevant due to the 2-A stuff. This just seems to be an attempt to make the blog more fleshed out and seem more relevant than it actually is.

Reverie :

The reverie, as established, is another world filled with galaxies. Ok, at least 3-B. That's fine. However, you seem to have purposefully left out something

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme...-28Quest29_Calling_the_Council_Dialogue_2.png

The dream contains the worlds of Khrysalis and Polaris. Where are they located? At the opposite edge of the Spiral

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachme.../600px-28Quest29_Polaris_Bound_Dialogue_1.png

Since both these worlds exist in Mellori's dream world, the dream is universal. Since both planets that represent the opposite edges exist within it. Nice Try.

Five Boxes:

"This means, each past is its own timeline." is the part I most want your attention focused on, because this isn't true.

https://www.wizard101.com/game/five-boxes-event

Here's the official page for Wizard101's Five Boxes Event (The event where all of the above comes from). According to the page, "Someone, or something, is threatening to unravel much of what we know as true and fact ― by nudging certain events, twisting others, and threatening to destroy yet more, this force puts Wizard City and all worlds of the Spiral at risk!"

I don't think much more needs to be said about that here, but it helps disprove the last point to go over."

I don't understand what you are trying to say here. In the final B.O.X quest, we travel to the past. This is a time where Malistaire and Cyrus Drake are not professors at Ravenwood. The professor literally states "I have seen that timeline". He is referencing the past we travelled to as a seperate timeline. How does the five boxes description on the page debunk this being a timeline? All it says it that someone is putting the Spiral in danger. It is purposefully vague to give The Player more of a surprise. Kingsisle constantly makes things on their website vague.

Sands of Time

I actually find this really funny. Your "debunk" to this was this image. This is an extremely fishy attempt my friend. That place is the chronoverge. Where the Chronomasters keep check of the sands of time. Do you want to know what the endless sands actually look like? It's not even the image used when the sands of time are introduced.

https://imgur.com/a/OXkmuMD

This is also where grandmother raven states that the sands are endless.

https://imgur.com/a/Ijy2vuk

From the chronoverge is where the sands of time pour down. From the skies down to the ground

https://imgur.com/a/ifzvJDJ

This is what Grandmother Raven says about the image you posted. The image you posted is not anything relevant

what does this mean. The past is a timeline. Each grain represents a moment in the Spiral's history. Do you want to know what history means?. The grains of sands are endless. Which in context and explained by Wokistan means to no end.
 
You could have at least played the game, or watched a full length walkthrough because the things you said are cherry-picking. The fact you said the dream is only mulit-galactic even though the planets which exist at each opposite edges of the Spiral goes to show how faulty this downgrade is
 
"Obviously, this is a pretty solid statement on its own. However, it also falls apart when considering that "Worlds" in Wizard101 doesn't refer to universes, but rather to planets. One of these "Worlds" is just a city, as Bartleby himself even states. Now, the cosmology blog states that each world is its own timeline, but that's entirely unsourced and only really helps 2-B exist, which is fine."

The worlds aren't their own timeline - they have their own separate flow of time . Either way they aren't even being used to justify 2-A so it's not even worth talking about.

"Obviously, this is a pretty solid statement on its own. However, it also falls apart when considering that "Worlds" in Wizard101 doesn't refer to universes, but rather to planets. One of these "Worlds" is just a city, as Bartleby himself even states. Now, the cosmology blog states that each world is its own timeline, but that's entirely unsourced and only really helps 2-B exist, which is fine."

Having a world being called Wizard City is not proof that it isn't a "planet". To begin with, Wizard City is the name that Merle Ambrose (Not Bartleby) gave it. Previously, the world itself was called Ravenwood . Merle Ambrose founded Wizard City which is where the name comes from. Bartleby calls it Wizard City because Merle Ambrose popularised the title.

It has been well-established by this point that having galaxies doesn't make something a universe, nor do statements of being "An alternate reality". This would make Dream Worlds at best 3-B, as established by DarkDragonMedeus:

These statements are not enough to call them universes; they may support the ideas when backed up by examples above, but none of them individually or altogether may be enough.

Okay, so the thing with the Reverie: It's not just housing several galaxies. It's housing the different worlds of the Spiral .

0:39 - Polaris, which sits at the edge of the Spiral.

1:17 - Wizard City/Ravenwood, which sits at the center of the Spiral.

14:12 - Khrysalis, also at the edge of the Spiral.

I'm not going to spend too much time going over the Sands of Time since Zenkai already did but this: "but that's contradicted by what we're actually shown." is just a poor attempt at a debunk. It's not even the image we see when the "endless" statements come up. Literally, not once in all of the times the word "endless" came up, was it in that room.
 
Zenkai and Ben said:
snip
Click to expand...
Okay, there's a lot to get into here. Ben, I'm glad you're being respecful, but Zenkai, you don't need to be as hostile as you're currently being. I'll just go over everything here. Mostly the Sands of Time stuff, as that alone is what got the verse to infinite * infinite 2-A or whatever the scaling chain is.

None of what you said debunks the points made. The grains of sand are not entire timelines, and none of the scans shown in your responses or any of the other blogs you've made show evidence to them being that. Again, according to the blog you quoted, the Sands of Time are tiny moments. There's a reason we don't rate the Unown as Low 2-C, and it's exactly the same as this. Just holding a tiny piece of the past does not make it a timeline, and you have yet to prove that is the case.
 
For the record, going off the pages, i was under the impression that the worlds being timelines was what made them 2-B in the first place. While I apologize for that, it doesn't change most of what I said. As for the Box event, Timelines are created through purposeful changing of events. Just being a tiny piece of the past does not cause an entire separate branch. I await proof that it does so.
 
As for the reverie, Judging by what Ben showed, it seems to be more of a hub world than anything. Once again, if you have scans to show the dream world being universal in size, I'd love to see them, but all the cosmology threads are incredibly circular and confusing and it makes it nearly impossible to find them.
 
Finally, for record's sake, I think it's unrealistic to dismiss someone's arguments on the basis of them not having played through the whole game (Especially since WIzard101 is locked behind a stupid amount of paywalls and my family isn't exactly the most financially sound).

I'm going to bed soon as online classes start back up for me tomorrow, but I'll get to any responses that show up when I can.
 
ZephyrosOmega said:
Finally, for record's sake, I think it's unrealistic to dismiss someone's arguments on the basis of them not having played through the whole game (Especially since WIzard101 is locked behind a stupid amount of paywalls and my family isn't exactly the most financially sound).
I'm going to bed soon as online classes start back up for me tomorrow, but I'll get to any responses that show up when I can.
Click to expand...
I agree with that and I'm hoping nobody's saying no simply because of that.

I'm currently in the process of replaying the game myself, collecting notable feats, and then finally (with Zenkai) creating a CRT for the game. There's a lot of stuff we've missed/failed to explain properly that should be reviewed.
 
I'm not being hostile, just pointing out the major flaws within your argument. It would also be appreciated if you included the names of everyone who is disagreeing with you, because a lot are. I apologize if it sounds that way

"As for the reverie, Judging by what Ben showed, it seems to be more of a hub world than anything. Once again, if you have scans to show the dream world being universal in size, I'd love to see them, but all the cosmology threads are incredibly circular and confusing and it makes it nearly impossible to find them."

This isn't a refute. This is you using the argument you previously made, just rephrasing it a little bit and adding in a little detail of "it isn't what you say it is because it is this" without evidence.

  • For starters, "It seems to be more of a hub world." An assumption without any evidence to back this up. "It seems" is a lot different than what it is. Ben and I gave you very specific scans. The reverie isn't even the dream world, it is the gateway to the dream world. Inside the dream, we saw 4 worlds. Wizard City, the center of the universe/Spiral, Dragonspyre (which is irrelevant but it goes to show other worlds are inclusive), Polaris, at the edge of the Universe, and Khrysalis, which is also at the edge of the Spiral. This shows that the center to both opposite edges are shown. This is universal in size whether you like it or not.
"As for the Box event, Timelines are created through purposeful changing of events. Just being a tiny piece of the past does not cause an entire separate branch. I await proof that it does so."

  • Same as before, same arguement repeated with a little minor changes. Yes and no. Timelines can be created through the manipulation of time. But this is not the only way. Seperate timelines have existed anyway, just with a 'tiny' different version of events. This is the game files by the way and will be implemented in the actual game within the next update, if it isn't already there in the first place. This "tiny piece of the past" shows how the manders were conscripted by nanobots instead of kroks. This dismantles the whole 'tiny piece of the past isn't a seperate branch' because it's literally a tiny piece of the past with a tiny difference, and everything else the same.
Before I continue, I would like to state something very important about the Spiral. The Spiral doesn't follow the laws of physics. It follows the laws of magic. Using general laws of physics in order to change something about the verse won't work, which is exactly why the way the universe works is confusing. So many developers have stated that the reason the game is confusing is because the way magic works, as opposed to the laws of physics. There is a reason behind the madness.

  • Adding on to the statement where a tiny difference represented a timeline, you seem to have not actually watched the B.O.X quest. In it, we travelled to yet another past in which professor Falema was unsure of what school to choose between fire and ice. This was before any changes were made. We just went there to make sure she was safe.
"The grains of sand are not entire timelines, and none of the scans shown in your responses or any of the other blogs you've made show evidence to them being that. Again, according to the blog you quoted, the Sands of Time are tiny moments. There's a reason we don't rate the Unown as Low 2-C, and it's exactly the same as this. Just holding a tiny piece of the past does not make it a timeline, and you have yet to prove that is the case."

  • My previous responses adressed this. They represent moments of the Spiral's history. I have linked you to a definition of what history means. The professor and the B.O.X quests, alongside the game files statements about the mander, prove you wrong.
Again, your recent reply was nothing but the same thing repeated using different words. And using arguments with no substantive information. Such as "hub world."
 
"For the record, going off the pages, i was under the impression that the worlds being timelines was what made them 2-B in the first place"

2-B Wizard101 also came from the "endless" statements. In the first CRT involving them it was ruled that "endless" was equal to high into 2-B but not 2-A. The context was thought to be different then.

"Once again, if you have scans to show the dream world being universal in size, I'd love to see them"

The Reverie is the place where all minds meet ,stated to be akin to the Other Side which houses "a reflection of the world around us" . Also, Mellori references it as being its own separate thing . It should be noted that the player enters the Reverie through a portal and not through psychic means, so it's 100% its own physical place. It might also be worth mentioning that the Reverie isn't limited by just the Spiral, as the player was trapped by Spider inside his own dream and the player is not of the Spiral.
 
I think Zenkai and Ben's arguments make the most sense to me, so I will disagree with this downgrade for now. However I'll still wait for Zeph's counterargument to see if anything changes.
 
I'm personally neutral overall regarding the thread. And it is true that being a body of space, having multiple galaxies, and being called worlds =/= being entire universes. However, I did say if they're described as "Alternate Realities" that generally does call them universes. I also think the whole every time period for every grain of sand makes sense.

But the last statement comes from the controversial viewpoints of the word "Endless". I know Wokistan and Ryukama both said that means infinite in their view, but other users such as Kepekley and many others are arguing otherwise. I know the dictionary definition has two definitions of both having no end or seemingly no end. However, I for one think context is far more important than a dictionary definition. If the term "Endless" is made completely literal, then that can mean infinite. But if the context says things like "It spreads or expands endlessly", that that would typically mean that it approaches infinity rather than equaling infinity.

But, I'm neutral for now as I've said.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I'm personally neutral overall regarding the thread. And it is true that being a body of space, having multiple galaxies, and being called worlds =/= being entire universes. However, I did say if they're described as "Alternate Realities" that generally does call them universes. I also think the whole every time period for every grain of sand makes sense.
But the last statement comes from the controversial viewpoints of the word "Endless". I know Wokistan and Ryukama both said that means infinite in their view, but other users such as Kepekley and many others are arguing otherwise. I know the dictionary definition has two definitions of both having no end or seemingly no end. However, I for one think context is far more important than a dictionary definition. If the term "Endless" is made completely literal, then that can mean infinite. But if the context says things like "It spreads or expands endlessly", that that would typically mean that it approaches infinity rather than equaling infinity.

But, I'm neutral for now as I've said.
Click to expand...
The "endless" sands weren't just popping up out of nowhere and expanding in this context. They were supposed to be there in the first place, the quest is about the player counter-acting against Spider's time shenanigans which were what got rid of them.
 
After reading the blog again (I had already read for a VS Thread where I also questioned it being above 2-B), coupled with the evidence on the OP, I fully agree with the downgrade to 2-B.
 
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