Why do Undertale God Tiers have Immeasurable speed?

[DMB_1]

I mean, if Asriel managed to move after the timeline was completely eradicated, and so did Chara after the multiverse' destruction, I don't think that infinite speed would be so bad.

 

[Agnaa]

The issue is the Timeless Void Standards. Characters can't just exist outside of timelines, it either has to be stated to be timeless, or show properties of being timeless, we can't just reason that it's timeless.

 

[Read_this_post]

I'm pretty sure the non existence of any of the time based mechanics is a pretty clear indication of it being a timeless void. Also I don't see how asriel could be moving in anything but a timeless void of the entire timeline was eradicated apon him.

Also to let you know, asriel is likely going to scale to chara based on the future god tier revision

 

[DMB_1]

Also to let you know, asriel is likely going to scale to chara based on the future god tier revision

Out of topic, but woudn't this downgrade Omega Flowey like it was planned in the last God Tier CTR?

 

[Agnaa]

Not really, it's just that no-one used any, there's no statement of them being impossible to use.

@Ant Do we usually give infinite speed to characters that created the universe/multiverse, yet have no statements of existing before time? Since that's what this would be analogous to.

 

[DMB_1]

@Ant Do we usually give infinite speed to characters that created the universe/multiverse, yet have no statements of existing before time? Since that's what this would be analogous to.

No, we don't.

 

[Read_this_post]

Omega flowey at most might be 2-C. But is unlikely to have infinite speeds.

@Agnaa Creating a multiverse isn't what gives them infinite speeds. It is the fact that they can erase time along with all of its aspects and continue functioning whilst everything is completely erased.

 

[Agnaa]

@Read this post I know, the comparison is that any creator deity has to have existed before time, by virtue of creating timelines.

Since we don't allow "Must have existed before timelines therefore infinite", we shouldn't allow "Existed when all timelines were destroyed therefore infinite".

Also, they don't explicitly erase time, they erase timelines, very very important distinction here.

 

[Read_this_post]

I know that. Otherwise anybody who does multiversal resets would be infinite. But the point is that not only were the timelines erased, but every time based function was completely erased and didn't even exist within that void

 

[Agnaa]

When was that stated?

 

[Andytrenom]

During the Asriel fight

You tried to reach your SAVE file, nothing happened

It seems saving the game really is impossible

Make of that what you will.

 

[Agnaa]

That feels more like supporting evidence rather than evidence on its own, since it does have other explanations (power null, not having as much determination as Asriel).

 

[Read_this_post]

It wasn't through a statement. All of the information in undertale including things like charas name (which would involve affecting everything before the events of the reset point) were erased. Asriel was also going to to it which is described as taking total control over the timeline. Chara performed a delayed true reset (which involves wiping out everything). During that scene, every mechanic involving save files, ability to fight back and any form of time manipulation is impossible until chara restores everything.

She literally erased the totality if the games reality including any time based mechanics.

 

[Agnaa]

All of the information in undertale including things like charas name (which would involve affecting everything before the events of the reset point) were erased.

Not infinite.

Asriel was also going to to it which is described as taking total control over the timeline.

Hax, not infinite.

Chara performed a delayed true reset (which involves wiping out everything).

AP/Hax, not infinite.

During that scene, every mechanic involving save files, ability to fight back and any form of time manipulation is impossible until chara restores everything.

"Your character can't do anything" =/= "Time doesn't exist" Even if some of the things your character can't do are time-related abilities.

Power nulling everything including time-related abilities doesn't mean that time doesn't exist.

 

[Andytrenom]

Don't think that's powernull or considered as powernull here. The disappearance of the time related abilities are taken as part of "Erasing the world" afaik.

 

[Agnaa]

It doesn't have to exactly be powernull but "Your character couldn't do anything, and they have time abilities!" isn't convincing evidence for "The only reason they couldn't use their time abilities is because time was gone"

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Agnaa makes sense.

 

[Read_this_post]

@Agnaa Don't separate my comment and strawman me. Those first three sentences were not reasons for infinite speed at all. They are there to show how the game works to back up why the void was timeless and lacked any form of data or mechanics

Read it again properly and I will respond.

 

[Agnaa]

None of those back up that it's explicitly timeless. I agree that it implies it, but that's not good enough for our standards.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

I have to give links for EVERYthing around here.

 

[Agnaa]

I have to give links for EVERYthing around here.

Destroying timelines is not infinite or immeasurable...

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

You're right, it's not. But it DOES prove they were fighting in a timeless void.

 

[Agnaa]

No. Existing when all timelines are destroyed does not give infinite speed. It has to either be stated to be a timeless void, or show characteristics of a timeless void.

You can't just have created the multiverse, or continued to have done things after destroying the multiverse.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

An erased timeline IS a timeless void logically.

 

[Agnaa]

Logically, you could argue that, but our standards don't accept that.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Nowhere does it say erased timelines aren't timeless voids. Erasing a timeline is literally getting rid of time.

 

[Agnaa]

It says that to qualify for a timeless void it needs a statement of being timeless or needs to show properties of being timeless. It doesn't say that we can logically reason into it being timeless.

 

[Agnaa]

Read this post backed this up earlier

I know that. Otherwise anybody who does multiversal resets would be infinite. But the point is that not only were the timelines erased, but every time based function was completely erased and didn't even exist within that void

More needs to be shown than just erasing all timelines

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

It doesn't NEED one, it just helps.

And I'm not talking about resets, I'm talking about moving when nothing is there.

 

[Agnaa]

And moving when there aren't any timelines isn't sufficient justification for infinite speed.

 

[Paul_Frank]

From the page:

In order for any given series to be upgraded based on these feats, their universe should meet, at minimum, a few of these criteria:

The realm should be consistently and reliably described as timeless by knowledgeable characters who can be confirmed not to be lying or bluffing.

The realm should display characteristics a realm without time would be expected to have, such as the lack of a visible passage of time, unless this is Cinematic Time.

Although not necessary per se, and not entirely accurate either, the characters who traverse it being described as "beyond the space-time" or "beyond time" would be supporting evidence.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

It is, because there literally isn't any time to move in.

 

[Agnaa]

It doesn't say that there's no time to move in. There could be some meta-time that's continuously flowing outside of all timelines.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

That, according to Burden of Proof, you would have to prove to me.

 

[Agnaa]

That, according to Burden of Proof, you would have to prove to me.

The wiki's standards are that the burden of proof is on you to prove that something is timeless. Take it up with the wiki, not with me.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

I did. Conventionally, there isn't time outside timelines.

 

[Agnaa]

Like I've said multiple times now, the wiki doesn't accept any form of "Existed outside all timelines" as infinite without further information. Neither "Created all timelines" or "Destroyed all timelines then kept acting" or "Destroyed all timelines then made them again" will give a character infinite.

If you want to change this rule, you can make another CRT about it.

 

[AKM sama]

Agnaa is right. And please stop repeating the same thing.

 

[Read_this_post]

Just ignore Sean. He is a troll who is infamously known for exaggerating undertale on purpose and obsessing with it everywhere he goes to gain attention. Anybody who knows about him on discord and google plus would know.

I'll respond when I have the time and energy to do so.

 

[Antvasima]

Please avoid making hostile comments about other members. It easily causes arguments to deteriorate severely. Just because others disagree with you, whether about fiction or politically, it does not make them trolls.