Marisa vs Asriel

[Robo432343]

marisa is building level

 

[Deidalius]

The ability cards aren’t one off, but they are recent to the series. They were introduced in Touhou 18, then in Marisa’s solo game, Touhou 18.5, she canonically collected every single one available, and then they show up again in the most recent game in the series, Touhou 19. That’s 3 consecutive games in the series that they appear in, the most recent games as well, and Marisa is canonically the only character to have collected them all. If they’re standard for ANYONE in Touhou, it’s Marisa ESPECIALLY.

I’m not sure how we’re being biased for Marisa here when we’re just using things that were accepted onto her profile, and the argument has shifted from if Azzy has any counter, to arguing against what’s on the profiles or if they’re standard or not.

(NGL all the arguments about this ability should probably go on a CRT, not here) But honestly, I don't think this ability or similar abilities from the game should be taken literally, especially if they deal with game mechanics such as skipping boss fights. Like, the manga has shown that the characters don't really use most of these abilities like in the games, or even have them at hand, specially Marisa. I mean, y'all are implying she has a card that makes her auto win with subjective reality but in Touhou 19 she doesn't have that card anymore and that's the most recent game in the series and in the manga, Cheating detective Satori and Lotus Eaters, Marisa could have won a lot of fights in that manga if she had the wacky ability to auto win fights and turn it into a win. Like, what's the explanation? When Marisa was fighting Flandre or when everyone is trying to catch Mizuchi, why didn't Marisa just go up to them, pull up that card and auto win? Did she forget she can do that? Are they resistant to Subjective reality? (Lol) Did she not have that card at hand? If so, it's not standard equipment.

Also, I want clarification, I haven't played Unconnected Marketeers nor 18.5 (And I probably won't, I heard they're bad games lol) but how many cards can you equip at once? Can you equip all cards at once? Is Sheep you can count a single use card, or can you spam that ability once you obtain it to skip all bosses and get to the last boss?

This seems like how in video games, in game 1 you can get a ton of weapons, armor and accessories but suddenly in game 2 you lose access to those items. I don't know how something like that would be treated on this site, but I would only use the items from the most recent story as standard equipment. It seems weird to assume these characters can use every item they have had in previous games even though in the next games and stories, they could have used it to have easy wins, but they haven't. I don't know, maybe they're stupid, maybe it's bad writing, or maybe we aren't meant to put much thought into it.

Oh, and from the Asriel side of the argument, can Asriel use Time manipulation, save and load and the TRUE RESET in this battle?

Right now I am leaning towards Asriel winning, their arguments seem more convincing. But Marisa seems to have more haxes in her bio, maybe she has something else to win.

 

[Deidalius]

marisa is building level

Weird way to spell "Marisa is mountain level, Asriel and his fodder verse are wall level and get solod by the omniversal king Goku"

 

[ShionAH]

Oh, and from the Asriel side of the argument, can Asriel use Time manipulation, save and load and the TRUE RESET in this battle?

To stop Asriel from loading she would have to destroy his mind, soul and body iirc but the mot important part is mind.

True Reset is weird, I dont think Azzy will use it in character. It would mean she loses her souls I think, it will be an easy win though if he uses it

 

[Livinmeme]

Many-Words Interpretations, aka the "for each possibility there is a universe where it happens".

Undertale isn't that, but it's comparable in size due to it following a similar infinitely-expanding logic for its multiverse.

Isn't that Low outversal, to high outversal now....Outversal undertale confirmed

 

[Deidalius]

To stop Asriel from loading she would have to destroy his mind, soul and body iirc but the mot important part is mind.

True Reset is weird, I dont think Azzy will use it in character. It would mean she loses her souls I think, it will be an easy win though if he uses it

I see, NGL, I don't think Marisa can get past his Save and loading unless she has an ability that lets her harm Asriel's mind. I read her profile and I didn't see an ability like that unless I missed it.

Isn't that Low outversal, to high outversal now....Outversal undertale confirmed

Powerscaling is a mistake. Powerscaling has fallen. BILLIONS must DIE.

 

[Angelzewolf]

And y'all don't even say how Marisa using that fits one of these:

From my limited understanding (as I haven't played the game, just watched it—)

Marisa uses the card. It allows the player to skip the stage, but is seems to still treat it as a "clear" since it still says "attempt succeeded" (with a question mark) and Marisa gains a new card.

So, in this context, it'd basically replace the current reality with a reality where she made it past Asriel? Whether that's winning, inconing, whatever. It makes her succeed in some way?


-

As for why it's not used often, I don't think that's a fair point. Marisa in CDS is consistently caught off guard and even when she's in a fight, that wouldn't automatically mean she'd use something. No Touhou character uses abilities at every point in their life, outside the ones they're known for. I mean, I don't even recall seeing the forcefield ability outside of the games until CDS.

Though, I don't know how standard equipment works on the Wiki. Marisa apparently has the card, it appeared in 3 games (according to someone here) and Marisa is stated to have hoarded the cards. By all accounts, she has them and they're part of her arsenal. I just don't think she'd be carrying them at all times, similar to how Trunks wouldn't be carrying his sword 24/7.

Frankly, that logic of "these characters have all these things but never use them in the next entry" Isn't even uncommon across fiction, especially in terms of video games. If a character canonically has said thing, whether or not they use it doesn't matter so long as the series doesn't go and claim they lost it or something.

As for Asriel vs Marisa, I have no comment. Asriel page confuses my non-UT fan brain and it seems a few things are missing from Marisa's page like some ability cards (unless I'm blind, which I am, so I could've missed em—)

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

I'd also like to point out its not necessarily known atm where CDS lands on the timeline, as it started serialization before 18 released iirc, and Lotus Eaters hasn't had Marisa get into any major fights post 18's introduction iirc to where she would need to use them

Regardless, this is the same sort of logic you can apply to any RPG character on the wiki for why they didn't just use one of their random items from their huge grab bag to counter one specific thing in one specific moment. It's not really a compelling argument.

 

[Catbowtie]

True Reset is weird, I dont think Azzy will use it in character. It would mean she loses her souls I think, it will be an easy win though if he uses it

Well, Asriel did say that he would reset the timeline after he defeated Frisk. The first part of the final battle of True Pacifist was Asriel playing with Frisk, then the second was crushing Frisk's Determination, but Frisk pulled God-Level Social Influencing and social influenced Asriel. Theoretically, Base Asriel would see a random human challenging him, and then just True Reset because that's the entire reason he's in that form anyways. If Asriel doesn't do this, then he would just go straight to True Power God of Hyperdeath because Asriel did say that he was playing with his food (Meaning that his Base God of Hyperdeath form was just there for giggles and knee-slapping) I don't think he'd have any reason to prolong the fight when he has no personal connection to Marisa outside of knowing that she'd maybe take away his SAVE and LOAD powers if he loses (As per Standard Battle Assumptions), which would, in my opinion, incentivize him to immediately destroy Marisa.


So either Asriel starts with True Reset or immediately goes into True Power God of Hyperdeath form and uses Existence Erasure and Type 2 Information Manipulation. Pick your poison.

 

[Deidalius]

As for why it's not used often, I don't think that's a fair point. Marisa in CDS is consistently caught off guard and even when she's in a fight, that wouldn't automatically mean she'd use something. No Touhou character uses abilities at every point in their life, outside the ones they're known for. I mean, I don't even recall seeing the forcefield ability outside of the games until CDS.

Though, I don't know how standard equipment works on the Wiki. Marisa apparently has the card, it appeared in 3 games (according to someone here) and Marisa is stated to have hoarded the cards. By all accounts, she has them and they're part of her arsenal. I just don't think she'd be carrying them at all times, similar to how Trunks wouldn't be carrying his sword 24/7.

Frankly, that logic of "these characters have all these things but never use them in the next entry" Isn't even uncommon across fiction, especially in terms of video games. If a character canonically has said thing, whether or not they use it doesn't matter so long as the series doesn't go and claim they lost it or something.

To be clear, I would treat similar characters that lose all their equipment in the next entry the same way I am treating Marisa. I don't think they should have all the abilities and items from previous entries at hand as their default equipment.

Or hell, they shouldn't use them in character either if they haven't used it outside their entries. The way I see it, Asriel is just more likely to use his hax in character than Marisa is to pull out that card.

I'd also like to point out its not necessarily known atm where CDS lands on the timeline, as it started serialization before 18 released iirc, and Lotus Eaters hasn't had Marisa get into any major fights post 18's introduction iirc to where she would need to use them

That's a fair point, actually.


Anyway, now that I look at how the card works, it doesn't seem to be part of her arsenal, and it's not something she can equip by default.

It says "*Cannot be equipped by default" down there, what's the deal with that?

Also, Sheep you want to count seems to be a single use ability, not something she can spam. I don't think that even if she wanted to use it, she could. Like, from what I understand in the games she gets this card from, she can't use it again after using it once. So she can't just spam it and skip all bosses until she reaches the final boss.

Also, how exactly does the ability card work? Like, all the characters Marisa defeats return in future entries, it's not like she kills them with this card. At most, she just beats them up Touhou style until they don't want to fight anymore or are physically incapable of continuing to fight. Assuming that she gets this card as her standard equipment, it's the first thing she uses in character, and she has it equipped by default, what's preventing Asriel from just regenerating and nuking the timeline afterwards? There's literally nothing Marisa can do about that, or well, you know, Asriel save and loading.

Well, Asriel did say that he would reset the timeline after he defeated Frisk. The first part of the final battle of True Pacifist was Asriel playing with Frisk, then the second was crushing Frisk's Determination, but Frisk pulled God-Level Social Influencing and social influenced Asriel. Theoretically, Base Asriel would see a random human challenging him, and then just True Reset because that's the entire reason he's in that form anyways. If Asriel doesn't do this, then he would just go straight to True Power God of Hyperdeath because Asriel did say that he was playing with his food (Meaning that his Base God of Hyperdeath form was just there for giggles and knee-slapping) I don't think he'd have any reason to prolong the fight when he has no personal connection to Marisa outside of knowing that she'd maybe take away his SAVE and LOAD powers if he loses (As per Standard Battle Assumptions), which would, in my opinion, incentivize him to immediately destroy Marisa.


So either Asriel starts with True Reset or immediately goes into True Power God of Hyperdeath form and uses Existence Erasure and Type 2 Information Manipulation. Pick your poison.

Maricooked

 

[Deidalius]

Also, again, how many of those cards can Marisa have equipped at once? Is there a limit like in most games of the genre, or can she just have all cards active at once, and we should assume she starts with all her cards active at once?

 

[StrymULTRA]

So, in this context, it'd basically replace the current reality with a reality where she made it past Asriel? Whether that's winning, inconing, whatever. It makes her succeed in some way?

Finally an answer lol.

 

[StrymULTRA]

True Reset is weird, I dont think Azzy will use it in character. It would mean she loses her souls I think, it will be an easy win though if he uses it

Huh... Shion, not going to lie but that's literally his whole goal. He stopped to want to destroy everything, instead planning to use the TRUE RESET instead. He says that to the Player at the End of pacifist.

Aka his leading move is either that or Info 2 EE.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

It says "*Cannot be equipped by default" down there, what's the deal with that?

Also, Sheep you want to count seems to be a single use ability, not something she can spam. I don't think that even if she wanted to use it, she could. Like, from what I understand in the games she gets this card from, she can't use it again after using it once. So she can't just spam it and skip all bosses until she reaches the final boss.

It just means you can't start a stage with it for gameplay purposes. A few cards have this restriction because they would, obviously, break the game. Having a card that lets you skip every stage from the start to the end would naturally break the game, its a restriction that only exists for the gameplay.

And logistically, in a vs debate, it doesn't matter if she "couldn't spam it" or not. She owns the card, its shown in her inventory after you use it for the first time, and if an opponent doesn't resist subjective reality, then her using it once is all she needs to win the fight.

Finally an answer lol.

I literally said this here

Also, again, how many of those cards can Marisa have equipped at once? Is there a limit like in most games of the genre, or can she just have all cards active at once, and we should assume she starts with all her cards active at once?

I forget the exact amount of cards you can hold at once in a specific run of a stage, but functionally there's no "limit" to how many she has at once because once you collect a card for the first time its added to your overall inventory of cards you can select from the getgo. These are the same gameplay limitations that nobody argues to restrict say, Mario or Final Fantasy characters to for combat for the record for how many items they can actually carry or use at once or what materia they can equip in that moment. I think you're focusing entirely too hard on trying to find weird ways to invalidate having the card as equipment when it doesn't make sense to do that way.

Does Asriel resist subjective reality or not? If he doesn't, he'd lose to the card. If he does, he'd resist its effects. It's not that hard.

 

[StrymULTRA]

And logistically, in a vs debate, it doesn't matter if she "couldn't spam it" or not. She owns the card, its shown in her inventory after you use it for the first time, and if an opponent doesn't resist subjective reality, then her using it once is all she needs to win the fight.

So it's not passive anyways

I literally said this here

You only said that she wins without elaborating on how lol.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

So it's not passive anyways

You only said that she wins without elaborating on how lol.

"You could compare it to like supplanting a reality over the current one. Using the card means everything that happened within the stage, and anything that will happen in it, was just a dream that you awake from, completing it and moving on."

Thats what I said about the functionality of the card? I was elaborating on how the card worked lol.

It being passive doesn't really matter, I never really argued it as so, she can still use it early on in the fight, has multiple revive methods to survive any form of attack that's not him immediately pulling out Info EE since that resistance isn't on profiles yet, so she'd have multiple chances to use the card if she thinks she's in trouble.

I'd also like to ask the reasoning for UT having Info EE?

 

[Catbowtie]

Sure, Marisa has something that Asriel doesn't resist, but does she start with it? Does she literally start with this (from what I'm reading) super-obscure card that just so happens to win her the match instantly? She fights Asriel in her Subjective Reality, correct? What's stopping that Asriel from just using True Reset or Type 2 Information Manipulation?

 

[Catbowtie]

I'd also like to ask the reasoning for UT having Info EE?

• Existence Erasure and Information Manipulation (Type 2. Has around the same level of DETERMINATION as Chara in their Absolute and the Player due to him being capable of using the TRUE RESET, and has initially planned to destroy the entire Undertale world[6] in a similar manner as the former after adopting their view on the world.[1] The TRUE RESET is also what was likely used from Chara to restore the entire game world and all its files after that they've erased it[11])

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Sure, Marisa has something that Asriel doesn't resist, but does she start with it? Does she literally start with this (from what I'm reading) super-obscure card that just so happens to win her the match instantly? She fights Asriel in her Subjective Reality, correct? What's stopping that Asriel from just using True Reset or Type 2 Information Manipulation?

No, she uses the card and makes the old reality a dream, in which she wakes up in the new one having "one". It basically supplants a new reality over the current one where she won the stage / encounter.

Asriel himself also does not lead with True Reset? Within his boss fight that's something he didn't intend to go for until much later on after toying with Frisk for a while.

 

[Catbowtie]

Asriel himself also does not lead with True Reset? Within his boss fight that's something he didn't intend to go for until much later on after toying with Frisk for a while.

Well, Asriel did say that he would reset the timeline after he defeated Frisk. The first part of the final battle of True Pacifist was Asriel playing with Frisk, then the second was crushing Frisk's Determination, but Frisk pulled God-Level Social Influencing and social influenced Asriel. Theoretically, Base Asriel would see a random human challenging him, and then just True Reset because that's the entire reason he's in that form anyways. If Asriel doesn't do this, then he would just go straight to True Power God of Hyperdeath because Asriel did say that he was playing with his food (Meaning that his Base God of Hyperdeath form was just there for giggles and knee-slapping) I don't think he'd have any reason to prolong the fight when he has no personal connection to Marisa outside of knowing that she'd maybe take away his SAVE and LOAD powers if he loses (As per Standard Battle Assumptions), which would, in my opinion, incentivize him to immediately destroy Marisa.


So either Asriel starts with True Reset or immediately goes into True Power God of Hyperdeath form and uses Existence Erasure and Type 2 Information Manipulation. Pick your poison.

 

[Deidalius]

It just means you can't start a stage with it for gameplay purposes. A few cards have this restriction because they would, obviously, break the game. Having a card that lets you skip every stage from the start to the end would naturally break the game, its a restriction that only exists for the gameplay.

And logistically, in a vs debate, it doesn't matter if she "couldn't spam it" or not. She owns the card, its shown in her inventory after you use it for the first time, and if an opponent doesn't resist subjective reality, then her using it once is all she needs to win the fight.

I don't really like this standard to be honest, we are taking what the description of the card says it does literally ignore that it might just be a game mechanic to give her subjective reality but when in that very same paragraph, a limit on the usage of the card is placed, suddenly it's a game mechanic, and it shouldn't be used. I think that's wank.

I forget the exact amount of cards you can hold at once in a specific run of a stage, but functionally there's no "limit" to how many she has at once because once you collect a card for the first time its added to your overall inventory of cards you can select from the getgo. These are the same gameplay limitations that nobody argues to restrict say, Mario or Final Fantasy characters to for combat for the record for how many items they can actually carry or use at once or what materia they can equip in that moment. I think you're focusing entirely too hard on trying to find weird ways to invalidate having the card as equipment when it doesn't make sense to do that way.

I don't know how Mario and Final fantasy is treated here, I don't really get into Mario arguments, but I don't think he should receive literally every item he has used at once here. I mean, if we somehow composited every standard equipment different characters had at different games and point of their lives in some weird composite monster that always uses everything they have in-character on this wiki as the SBA, then sure, Marisa gets all the standard equipment she has had over the years. But realistically, I don't think we should treat characters in-general that way, I don't think if I pulled up a gun on Marisa or Mario that they'll use some wacky power-up from several games ago to fight me.

"You could compare it to like supplanting a reality over the current one. Using the card means everything that happened within the stage, and anything that will happen in it, was just a dream that you awake from, completing it and moving on."

Thats what I said about the functionality of the card? I was elaborating on how the card worked lol.

It being passive doesn't really matter, I never really argued it as so, she can still use it early on in the fight, has multiple revive methods to survive any form of attack that's not him immediately pulling out Info EE since that resistance isn't on profiles yet, so she'd have multiple chances to use the card if she thinks she's in trouble.

I'd also like to ask the reasoning for UT having Info EE?

I don't see how replacing a reality would defeat Asriel.

Like, what's the effect this card would have on him? Assuming he has no resistances (I doubt he has) Will he be turned fictional? Will he just be defeated? If so, Asriel will regenerate or use Save and load to come back to the fight. Will he be BFR'd to another reality?



NGL, I cast a vote on Asriel, his arguments seem more convincing. He seems more willing to pull out hax that would beat Marisa in-character.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

How are we equalizing how True Reset functions in a fight like this. In Undertale the True Reset just resets you to the beginning of the game, and doesn't kill anyone, if anything it revives those who were killed.

Within the confines of a fight to the death, wouldn't this just restart the fight from the beginning? The beginning of the timeline of the battle, so to say? Either that or he'd just reset the timeline to... the beginning of Undertale before he and Marisa ever encountered, wouldn't that just be self bfr? I'm not sure how a True Reset in of itself would work within the confines of this fight.

Within UT a True Reset basically just undoes the events of a timeline wholly (Marisa has acausality on her profile to the point of being unaffected by where she was born being erased from history ftr so she'd be unaffected). Marisa is weaker AP wise but he'd still be susceptible to spiritual and mental attacks no? Which spirit manipulation would inflict. Magic absorber would be able to absorb the majority of his attacks as well.

Otherwise this is a debate in which each side has an insta win ability and it would depend on whoever quickdraws it. Marisa generally doesn't waste her time with things that pose a major threat, and she can sense the magical power of enemies and has no issue intending to kill things she thinks can be a threat, she intentionally killed a youkai that was still forming just to prevent it from becoming an issue, so I don't think she'd have reason for treating Asriel lightly, especially since he wouldn't be following SCRs.

Under the current profile Marisa has, I'd suggest just leaving this at an Incon. Both have a method to kill the other, neither are likely to treat the other lightly. This will have to be removed very soon with upcoming Touhou revisions so I probably wouldn't bother adding this on profiles.

 

[Deidalius]

Asriel can negate Type 1 Acausality, he would negate Marisa's resistances.

That being said, I don't understand how his True reset could be used offensively. I summon an Undertale nerd to explain that to us, pretty please.

Also, wouldn't Asriel negate Marisa's resurrection because he can do EE and erase her information? She doesn't have those resistances in her profile yet. I mean, Marisa could potentially hurt his mind and soul but Asriel could heal from those attacks with the save and load, I don't know how hard can he resist Marisa's Soul/Mind attacks though, but I have been told he has resistances to those two things. I dunno how good those resistances are, though.

 

[Quibster]

@Quibster told that she'll do it iirc.

I've stated that I'd be willing to implement the changes on Fuji's behalf in particular. At the present moment, I don't have the time. Perhaps in the future.

Watching and reading this thread for now.

 

[Catbowtie]

How are we equalizing how True Reset functions in a fight like this. In Undertale the True Reset just resets you to the beginning of the game, and doesn't kill anyone, if anything it revives those who were killed.

Within the confines of a fight to the death, wouldn't this just restart the fight from the beginning? The beginning of the timeline of the battle, so to say? Either that or he'd just reset the timeline to... the beginning of Undertale before he and Marisa ever encountered, wouldn't that just be self bfr? I'm not sure how a True Reset in of itself would work within the confines of this fight.

My apologies, I got something wrong.

has initially planned to destroy the entire Undertale world[6] in a similar manner as the former

True Reset can only be used to restore something. It's a Creation ability on a 2-B Level.

Within UT a True Reset basically just undoes the events of a timeline wholly (Marisa has acausality on her profile to the point of being unaffected by where she was born being erased from history ftr so she'd be unaffected). Marisa is weaker AP wise but he'd still be susceptible to spiritual and mental attacks no? Which spirit manipulation would inflict. Magic absorber would be able to absorb the majority of his attacks as well.

• Type 1 Acausality Negation (Can use the TRUE RESET like The Player)

Asriel starts with booming the entire place on a 2-B level.

Otherwise this is a debate in which each side has an insta win ability and it would depend on whoever quickdraws it. Marisa generally doesn't waste her time with things that pose a major threat, and she can sense the magical power of enemies and has no issue intending to kill things she thinks can be a threat, she intentionally killed a youkai that was still forming just to prevent it from becoming an issue, so I don't think she'd have reason for treating Asriel lightly, especially since he wouldn't be following SCRs.

Under the current profile Marisa has, I'd suggest just leaving this at an Incon. Both have a method to kill the other, neither are likely to treat the other lightly. This will have to be removed very soon with upcoming Touhou revisions so I probably wouldn't bother adding this on profiles.

Asriel regenerates. Does she have any abilities that destroy his soul? If so, does it instantly destroy his soul or merely damages it (Similar to how punching something until it breaks works, if you know what I mean)

That being said, I don't understand how his True reset could be used offensively. I summon an Undertale nerd to explain that to us, pretty please.

It can't. I got this wrong. I was confusing True Reset with Asriel literally just booming the entire Undertale Cosmology as the same thing. Basically, Asriel's first move is to immediately use Existence Erasure and Type 2 Information Manipulation, then use True Reset to make a 2-B Cosmology again.

Also, wouldn't Asriel negate Marisa's resurrection because he can do EE and erase her information? She doesn't have those resistances in her profile yet. I mean, Marisa could potentially hurt his mind and soul but Asriel could heal from those attacks with the save and load, I don't know how hard can he resist Marisa's Soul/Mind attacks though, but I have been told he has resistances to those two things. I dunno how good those resistances are, though.

Asriel doesn't resist Soul and Mind manipulation. Don't know where that came from. I could be wrong though.

Also, I'm pretty sure Frisk has Mid-Godly Regeneration. We literally see their soul get destroyed and then re-fused, but I gotta make a CRT for that one.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

My apologies, I got something wrong.

True Reset can only be used to restore something. It's a Creation ability on a 2-B Level.



Asriel starts with booming the entire place on a 2-B level.


Asriel regenerates. Does she have any abilities that destroy his soul? If so, does it instantly destroy his soul or merely damages it (Similar to how punching something until it breaks works, if you know what I mean)


It can't. I got this wrong. I was confusing True Reset with Asriel literally just booming the entire Undertale Cosmology as the same thing. Basically, Asriel's first move is to immediately use Existence Erasure and Type 2 Information Manipulation, then use True Reset to make a 2-B Cosmology again.

Asriel doesn't resist Soul and Mind manipulation. Don't know where that came from. I could be wrong though.

Also, I'm pretty sure Frisk has Mid-Godly Regeneration. We literally see their soul get destroyed and then re-fused, but I gotta make a CRT for that one.

It’s from Marisa’s spirit manipulation Ability. Her attacks will passively be draining and damaging his soul and mind.

I think that would only be partial mid godly, not fully mid godly, as the soul isn’t fully destroyed / disintegrated, just shattered.

Like I said earlier, this is basically just a match where both characters have one immediate viable method to end the fight for good, and who would go for it first is what matters. I’d say incon under current profiles.

 

[Quibster]

Also, I want clarification, I haven't played Unconnected Marketeers nor 18.5 (And I probably won't, I heard they're bad games lol) but how many cards can you equip at once? Can you equip all cards at once

All the select characters in UM can select 2 cards at the beginning. (these can be any of the cards you have earned in previous runs as well, and Marisa has them all). At the end of each stage, you use your Bullet Money (raining points you get from destroying enemies/bosses) to buy an Ability Card from a Boss's shop once you've cleared a stage. Characters can acquire +5 additional cards until they reach Stage 6, which is the final stage. During the EX stage, characters can select 3 cards, and gain an additional card once they reach Momoyo (The Extra Boss of UM). As for 18.5, cards are largely handled the same way as in 18, though I'm unfamiliar with the distribution of them. To my surface-level understanding of that game, Marisa gets even more cards and hax to use at once.

Here's an in-game explanation of each card type (From Unconnected Marketeers):

Edit: Item Type is just Heart/Spell pieces dropped from trash enemies and bosses. Some Active cards can allow you to produce these by fulfilling it's conditions (Dragon Pipe being a very popular example; since it lets you generate additional lives over time).

 

[StrymULTRA]

How are we equalizing how True Reset functions in a fight like this. In Undertale the True Reset just resets you to the beginning of the game, and doesn't kill anyone, if anything it revives those who were killed.

Same logic. How does that card kill Asriel too.

True Reset can only be used to restore something. It's a Creation ability on a 2-B Level.

It has both that and the reset properties, as it still works even if the game isn't destroyed by Chara.

That being said, I don't understand how his True reset could be used offensively. I summon an Undertale nerd to explain that to us, pretty please.

Wipe out Marisa's memories + technically BFR her.

Also, I'm pretty sure Frisk has Mid-Godly Regeneration. We literally see their soul get destroyed and then re-fused, but I gotta make a CRT for that one.

That's still Low Godly. Their mind also has to be destroyed other than SOUL.

 

[Quibster]

I'm leaning inconclusive for now.

The fact that Asriel starts in a weaker form and Marisa's access to Ability Cards makes this less one-sided. Cards just make Marisa harder to kill, and as long as she's hitting Asriel with projectiles/lasers, she'll accrue more resources off of Spirit Manipulation to maintain her card's effects, and drain his energy in tandum to that. The question at that point becomes; Will Asriel snap out of his god complex power trip before he's overwhelmed? They both have means of killing each other, for sure.

 

[Quibster]

Also Doremy v. Asriel would be 1000x more interesting.

 

[Deidalius]

Ya' know, assuming Marisa is willing to use the sheep card and is going to spam it or yari yara, and that the cards actually aren't single use but rather that's just a game mechanic and Marisa can use it as much as she wants and spam it, wouldn't that mean Marisa can use this card.

To give herself endless lives since, according to what Kirbonic said about the Sheep card, the same should apply to this card, innit? Like, if the sheep card is single use in gameplay, but outside of gameplay Marisa can spam it, then Marisa should be able to spam this one too, and the other cards.

Same logic. How does that card kill Asriel too.

^^^^ I still don't see exactly what the sheep card would do to Asriel. Like, there are distinct methods of Subjective reality, there should be something more specific. Like, does the card instakill Asriel? Does it make him fictional? Does it just knock him out? Weaken him until he's unable to fight? Those things should be specified imo

Also Doremy v. Asriel would be 1000x more interesting.

But JzBoy video and star spam

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'm leaning inconclusive for now.

The fact that Asriel starts in a weaker form and Marisa's access to Ability Cards makes this less one-sided. Cards just make Marisa harder to kill, and as long as she's hitting Asriel with projectiles/lasers, she'll accrue more resources off of Spirit Manipulation to maintain her card's effects, and drain his energy in tandum to that. The question at that point becomes; Will Asriel snap out of his god complex power trip before he's overwhelmed? They both have means of killing each other, for sure.

Asriel was holding back and merely playing against Frisk for two reasons:

1. He believed Frisk was Chara, reason being that they are controlled by the Player, who has STRONG connections to Chara in multiple ways (example Chara being literally our will to grind stats, both Player and Chara having the unpredictability that Flowey/Asriel are attracted to, etc.), making Asriel feel Chara's presence in Frisk, thus being less aggressive than he'd be as Flowey because there he believed that he had the means of reuniting with his best friend.
2. Neither Frisk nor Asriel could use their DETERMINATION-related abilities due to their DT nulling each other, as they were equivalent. Asriel's plan was to murder "Chara" over and over until they give up, so that he could finally use the TRUE RESET.

Marisa doesn't fit in any of these, there's no reason Asriel just wouldn't TRUE RESET (as it was his main goal, said that as also Photoshop Flowey that he planned to get the 7th SOUL to obtain true dominance over the world).

That or also Info 2 EE, due to his plan being also tied with Chara's plan being to just erase everything (remember that he was gaslight from Chara, and when he was Flowey he did fully agree with that plan).

 

[Catbowtie]

Will Asriel snap out of his god complex power trip before he's overwhelmed?

I'm sure that Asriel wouldn't even be in a God complex. He explicitly expresses that he wants to reset the timeline. He was only torturing Frisk because he has a personal vendetta against them and Frisk was literally preventing him from using having control over the timeline. Neither of these cases apply here, so Asriel would just nuke the cosmology and True Reset

I can elaborate more later, this message was rushed.

 

[Catbowtie]

Asriel was holding back and merely playing against Frisk for two reasons:

1. He believed Frisk was Chara, reason being that they are controlled by the Player, who has STRONG connections to Chara in multiple ways (example Chara being literally our will to grind stats, both Player and Chara having the unpredictability that Flowey/Asriel are attracted to, etc.), making Asriel feel Chara's presence in Frisk, thus being less aggressive than he'd be as Flowey because there he believed that he had the means of reuniting with his best friend.
2. Neither Frisk nor Asriel could use their DETERMINATION-related abilities due to their DT nulling each other, as they were equivalence. Asriel's plan was to murder "Chara" over and over until they give up, so that he could finally use the TRUE RESET.

Marisa doesn't fit in any of these, there's no reason Asriel just wouldn't TRUE RESET (as it was his main goal, said that as also Photoshop Flowey that he planned to get the 7th SOUL to obtain true dominance over the world).

That or also Info 2 EE, due to his plan being also tied with Chara's plan being to just erase everything (remember that he was gaslight from Chara, and when he was Flowey he did fully agree with that plan).

Literally this.

 

[StrymULTRA]

^^^^ I still don't see exactly what the sheep card would do to Asriel. Like, there are distinct methods of Subjective reality, there should be something more specific. Like, does the card instakill Asriel? Does it make him fictional? Does it just knock him out? Weaken him until he's unable to fight? Those things should be specified imo

Pretty much. Touhou supporters aren't explaining, just tell that she wins and do not elaborate, which makes things suspicious.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

If you're ignoring the paragraphs we're typing for why we think her abilities would allow her to stay in the game or why we think Sheep would work against Asriel to say we aren't explaining, I dont know what to tell you, you're just willfully ignoring us at that point.

 

[StrymULTRA]

If you're ignoring the paragraphs we're typing for why we think her abilities would allow her to stay in the game or why we think Sheep would work against Asriel to say we aren't explaining, I dont know what to tell you, you're just willfully ignoring us at that point.

NOBODY IS DENYING IT'S WORKING, we're asking HOW it's working.

What would that thing do to Asriel, I am asking that.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

The entire function of the item is making Marisa "win" the stage. She gets the spoils for defeating the boss as if she had "won" the fight against them, and then she continues onto the next stage and completes the fight. The obvious interpretation is that it would supplant the reality of Marisa having won the encounter against Asriel. If he has no resistance to subjective reality, he'd have no resistance to it being altered to force him to lose the encounter.

I'd also like to ask about the range of effect on the info EE. Marisa has ability cards that let her utilize gaps to transport herself. Yukari's boundary manipulation, the ability in which gaps are sourced to, have Multiversal range, meaning Marisa could potentially use it to escape the range of the EE depending on how it works.

 

[StrymULTRA]

The entire function of the item is making Marisa "win" the stage. She gets the spoils for defeating the boss as if she had "won" the fight against them, and then she continues onto the next stage and completes the fight. The obvious interpretation is that it would supplant the reality of Marisa having won the encounter against Asriel. If he has no resistance to subjective reality, he'd have no resistance to it being altered to force him to lose the encounter.

Alright.

I'd also like to ask about the range of effect on the info EE. Marisa has ability cards that let her utilize gaps to transport herself. Yukari's boundary manipulation, the ability in which gaps are sourced to, have Multiversal range, meaning Marisa could potentially use it to escape the range of the EE depending on how it works.

Asriel's abilities are generally all in 2-B range (ad-infinitum timelines). And the thing is like... instantaneous.

Remember when he as Photoshop Flowey he instantly ****** over the game, warping all the files and shit? There's no reason for that to not be that fast too, given it still leads to the same ability (heck he erased Frisk's file pretty fast as well).

TRUE RESET is also instantaneous for same reason, as there's no in-between things in doing so. The Player just does that from only pressing the button after all.

 

[ShionAH]

Huh... Shion, not going to lie but that's literally his whole goal. He stopped to want to destroy everything, instead planning to use the TRUE RESET instead. He says that to the Player at the End of pacifist.

Aka his leading move is either that or Info 2 EE.

My bad I must be misremembering