Where Roa's High 1-B Statement Applies, 6 doors Translation, and Where They Both Fit

[KingNanaya]

• Stage III: Undead (不死, Fushi?) — From this point on a creature that can finally be called a Vampire. A living corpse, that hasn't fully regained it's mental faculties and lacks it's senses of pain and taste, but can simulate a human lifestyle on its own. A high-ranking soldier whose brain has been reconstructed after death, that follows its sire after understanding what kind of creature it has become. They are still bound to their sire and return to being corpses when their sire gets destroyed or by the sire's decision that they are not needed anymore. These Undead act as commanders to the lower ranked Dead and are not fazed by sunlight, but require periodic embalming treatment in order to conceal their true nature. Counted among "The Dead".[23]

The Dead (死者, Shisha?) are the traditional Familiars of the Dead Apostles.​

 

[Deagonx]

Neither of those contradict what I noted above.

 

[KingNanaya]

Neither of those contradict what I noted above.

Stage III: Undead (不死, Fushi?) — From this point on a creature that can finally be called a Vampire.

Stage II: Ghoul (屍鬼, Shiki?) — A corpse mimicking the form it had in life, possessing a will yet incapable of coherent thought. While its sire's Magical Energy keeps it from decaying, its insides have completely disintegrated. As the brain's decomposition causes it to seek flesh and blood instinctively, it is more savage than a Stage l: Corpse, as they can devour people in less than a few minutes.

this directly goes against what you said. Rank 3 and onward are Vampires. Ranks 1 and 2 are not. Kiritsugu kill Ghouls, which are Rank 2.

 

[Deagonx]

this directly goes against what you said. Rank 3 and onward are Vampires. Ranks 1 and 2 are not. Kiritsugu kill Ghouls, which are Rank 2.

The word being translated as "vampire" in "a creature that can finally be called a vampire" is literally "blood sucker." The text is noting that this is the first stage at which they literally suck blood, but even this is part of "the dead."

That's not what we're discussing though. Ghouls still fall under the category of vampires.

 

[KingNanaya]

The text is noting that this is the first stage at which they literally suck blood

it doesn't say this. at all. it says that at Stage 3 they are to be considered Vampires. it does not say anything about the capacity to suck blood at all after this.

• Stage III: Undead (不死, Fushi?) — From this point on a creature that can finally be called a Vampire. A living corpse, that hasn't fully regained it's mental faculties and lacks it's senses of pain and taste, but can simulate a human lifestyle on its own. A high-ranking soldier whose brain has been reconstructed after death, that follows its sire after understanding what kind of creature it has become. They are still bound to their sire and return to being corpses when their sire gets destroyed or by the sire's decision that they are not needed anymore. These Undead act as commanders to the lower ranked Dead and are not fazed by sunlight, but require periodic embalming treatment in order to conceal their true nature. Counted among "The Dead".[26]

That's not what we're discussing though.

it is. because I'm telling you that the text very clearly states that they aren't vampires until stage 3.

 

[Deagonx]

because I'm telling you that the text very clearly states that they aren't vampires until stage 3.

It does not, it says they do not suck blood. But regardless, the gap in power isn't infinite between those two ranks so this is still fine.

 

[KingNanaya]

But regardless, the gap in power isn't infinite between those two ranks so this is still fine.

you should probably wait until the other thread is done before making this claim. I won't argue for or against this point until then. even then, I think this point (Vampire topic in general) doesn't mean much as a counter to the OP. Quoting what Qawsedf on the other page.

I know, that's why I provided examples of that kanji being used in various sentences. 超越 can mean that your budget went beyond projected, that someone has achieved a higher dimensional existence, that a cheetah can run faster than a human can or that global warming will cause effects beyond just economic ones. It's entirely context sensitive.

Roa said Vampires are lauded as being transcendental but aren't immortal, and then he didn't explain on it further. Because he wasn't even talking about dimensions or anything, just immortality. We have no context of what he meant that time, as he didn't clarify anything. Was he talking about dimensions? was he talking about abilities? was he talking about physical characteristics? he never said. He calls True Ancestors transcendent too, and one of them just flattens time from a 4D perspective to a 2D one (here), and then does it multiple times after that (here and here). Basically, it's like how "world" can also be used for "planet" or "universe" depending on the context. If world is used prior to talk about planets, and then after to talk about the universe, that doesn't discredit the validity of either statement, it just means that we look at the context more in depth when we're able to.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

BUMP x2

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234

Can you evaluate this please?

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Currently distracted wrapping up the current Marvel revisions (And preparing the next part of them). And as I've mentioned there, my active presence in that thread is already stretching my avaliable time, so, I'll get to other pending matters after that's done.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Bump.

 

[Antvasima]

If somebody writes a single post that properly explains everything that currently needs to be evaluated here, I can ask for evaluation help afterwards.

 

[KingNanaya]

If somebody writes a single post that properly explains everything that currently needs to be evaluated here, I can ask for evaluation help afterwards.

There's a summary of the main points here

Got permission to make a comment from @LephyrTheRevanchist.

A machine translation is being used for Roa's statement, when a more reliable human translation is already available here.

To make reading it convenient for everyone, the passage with context is found in the spoiler tag:

Spoiler: Roa's conversation

"Why reincarnation, anyway? It'd be a lot easier to prolong your own individual life, and more importantly, you wouldn't cause problems for anyone else." "Because if I did that, I'd eventually reach a limit. There is no upper bound to human perception――no end to the path toward omnipotence. No matter how transcendental you become, there will always be something that lies ahead." "Take, for example, a certain nun who suddenly turned up among the Burial Agency. Using the sabbath, she became a devil, and so obtained a sense for the higher dimensions, turning functionally almighty in ours. But even she is still bound by her material form――still bound to this universe. As for why―――" 'Fortune may have allowed me to ascend to the seat of the demonic heavens to bring salvation upon all life, yet there I was naught but an insignificant initiate. Though I had tried to gain true sight my whole life, what I finally beheld was not merely the truth of the world, but just how minuscule I was within it. What then was the purpose of my metamorphosis, if all my efforts served to do was demonstrate to me how pitiful I was?' 'As such, I remain here in this world. Small though it may be, I find far greater purpose within myself here than on the other side...' "Quite the silly story. As soon as she became able to sense the 'outside' of the world, she felt her own powerlessness more acutely than ever before. Yet another example that drives home the limits of the individual. I wanted to know everything. Everything there is to know about this ever-expanding universe. As such, it was pertinent for me not to seek strength or happiness on an individual level, but instead a self that continues to exist until the end of the world." His desire contradicts itself. The world will continue to expand. He claims that he sought eternity in order to know everything, but that was doomed to be an endless journey from the start. If what he says is true――― That the world continues to expand and give birth to new things――― Then even if he were to live for an eternity, he could never fully know everything. "No, it is possible. It will definitely have a conclusion. I will definitely reach its conclusion. It is for that reason that we exist. We were born into this world in order to define the eternity that is this universe. If not, there would have been no reason for us to become intelligent. Even if the intelligent life born on this planet belongs to the past, and is far from understanding eternity, as long as the will persists, I shall continue to pursue this ever-changing voyage."

The highlight within the text is that Roa states that there is:

1. 'No end to the path toward omnipotence'
2. 'No matter how transcendental you become, there will always be something that lies ahead'.

As an example to prove his point, he cites Kiara becoming a demon to reach a higher dimension and become omnipotent/almighty within the human dimensions, only to learn how insignificant she is within the Demonic Heavens.

The argument is that if reaching a higher dimension is considered a step within the unending path toward (true) omnipotence, and an example of levels of transcendence that has no upper ceiling, then this implies High 1-B cosmology within the verse.

True Demons which Kiara becomes in some timelines are stated to be higher dimensional beings in materials. Qualitative superiority between dimensions is currently accepted based on evidence compiled here and here.

 

[Antvasima]

@Executor_N0 @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @PrinceofPein @Everything12 @Planck69 @Ovy7 @TheUnshakableOne @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @Kerwin0831 @RatherClueless @DarkGrath

Are any of you willing to help evaluate this please?

 

[Antvasima]

See here for an explanation:

Where Roa's High 1-B Statement Applies, 6 doors Translation, and Where They Both Fit

Stage III: Undead (不死, Fushi?) — From this point on a creature that can finally be called a Vampire. A living corpse, that hasn't fully regained it's mental faculties and lacks it's senses of pain and taste, but can simulate a human lifestyle on its own. A high-ranking soldier whose brain has...

vsbattles.com

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

@Executor_N0 @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @PrinceofPein @Everything12 @Planck69 @Ovy7 @TheUnshakableOne @Rakih_Elyan @IdiosyncraticLawyer @Kerwin0831 @RatherClueless @DarkGrath

Are any of you willing to help evaluate this please?

Is there there a good summary somewhere that sums up the arguments for those against this or for it?

 

[KingNanaya]

Is there there a good summary somewhere that sums up the arguments for those against this or for it?

this is the argument in support of it

See here for an explanation:

Where Roa's High 1-B Statement Applies, 6 doors Translation, and Where They Both Fit

Stage III: Undead (不死, Fushi?) — From this point on a creature that can finally be called a Vampire. A living corpse, that hasn't fully regained it's mental faculties and lacks it's senses of pain and taste, but can simulate a human lifestyle on its own. A high-ranking soldier whose brain has...

vsbattles.com

this is the argument for against it

I got permission once again from Deagonx.
My message will solely answer Shadow's post out of respect for the time he has put to answer me. It's only natural I reciprocate. If you do answer that reply of mine, I'll probably not go further on the thread since practically everything have been said, so if there is a need to continue the debate, we can do so in private messages if we both wish to.

So no, the point of the thread is not to argue what Roa's main point is.

Actually, it very much is. There is a world apart between stating what he's saying in need of an image to explain his ideas and stating it as a matter of fact. It can be used as cosmological evidence, but not to imply something that Roa himself never implied in the first place.
Really, there is no need for grand semantic debate to know for a fact that what he said is just an image. If you want it to be a fact it needs to be substantiated within the work itself, which, beside Kiara, isn't ever mentioned again.

Regarding the second paragraph, actually, the top-tier vampires are considered more powerful than most gods. So calling the species transcendental wouldn't be wrong. Fun fact: ORT inherits the title of Dead Apostle Ancestor, and so did Primate Murder who is one of the Beasts.

I've never said that the way he calls them is "wrong". In fact, I think "transcendental" is quite fitting, seeing the different definitions of the word. Vampires are a species that goes beyond the realm of "humans" and as such, transcend the human's mind. They are supernatural/Superhuman, whatever you wish.
I don't know exactly what you meant by "more powerful than gods", I suppose you're saying that they are higher dimensional? Nanaya told me Vampire were 4D, but whether they are or not isn't important in the context to be fair.

I can agree that transcendence can mean different things. However we know from the example provided by Roa that it ALSO means becoming higher dimensional.
So even if it also means other things, the qualifiers would also apply to the state of becoming higher dimensional (in fact, this is what the example highlights).

I think we're clashing different point of views on how that word is used. For me, it qualifies everything that is supernatural, which would indeed include Kiara's experience. It does apply to that, but doesn't solely describe a dimensional transcendence and could just mean a gap in strength or any weird supernatural event happening. I mean, the fact that vampires "are transcendental" because they don't age and can resurrect after death should be enough proof to show that "transcendental" doesn't even have to deal with power or dimensionality and can be for more mundane/down to earth stuff.

I would like to do the same thing you did in your message, but I don't know how to, so I apologize if my own version is very crude in comparison.

What is a confirmed example for a method to going through the path toward omnipotence? Ascending to higher dimensions.

You go through the path toward omnipotence at any level. If you're a mage slightly stronger than a human, you're walking toward that path. While I agree that ascending to higher dimensions seems to be a way too, it's not like "it's a step" toward it. Growing in strength is. The method is irrelevant here. That you become omnipotent using higher dimensionality, raw strength, raw magic or anything is not important, the point is getting to a level Roa designate as "Omnipotence".

Is there an end to the path toward omnipotence? No. Even if you become omnipotent to a lower dimension.

So then, you don't reach omnipotence, you just achieve the peak in one dimension and not another? Roa himself is probably comparing what Kiara experimented as "seeking strength". This seems in accordance to what he states, even if you think you're "the most transcendental (supernatural/superhuman)", in reality you're not.

What is a confirmed example of becoming transcendental? Becoming higher dimensional.

Anything that is out of the realm of the humans falls into "being transcendental". Such as not being able to age and resurrecting after death.

Can you reach an endpoint by becoming transcendental? No. No matter how transcendental you become.

Indeed, that's what he states. If we take it literally and not like a conceptual image for what he's trying to convey. But since "transcendental" doesn't solely designate someone transcending to higher dimension, but also more down to earth things, what makes you think "no matter how transcendental" = "No matter your dimensionality, there will be someone higher above you" ? If it was the only time that word was used, and we associated "transcendental" with higher dimensionality, I could see the argument, but since it's not the case, you can't assume every "transcendental" being is higher dimensional compared to the one below it.
If anything, I'm sure "Vampires are more transcendental than other species and less transcendental than others". Once again, whether they are 4D or whatever isn't important since Roa used that word to designate their ability to not age and resurrect, nothing about their physicality or dimensionality.

Conclusion: You can endlessly transcend to a higher dimension and still be able to transcend further.

Nope, if anything, Kiara shows that there is indeed a limit. Let's recap what happens, okay?

Kiara gains Higher-dimensional senses that made her "omnipotent" in the human dimension. Proof.
Upon using her senses, she ascended to "the seat of the demonic heavens"which I assume is a plane of existence. Proof.
Here, in that place, "the demonic heavens", she realized that she was nothing more than an "insignificant initiate". Proof.
After realizing that, she saw how minuscule (as an entity/human individual) she was and begin questioning her own worth. Proof.

So tell me, for someone who is supposed to prove an infinite number of dimensions within the universe, isn't it weird that she compare herself very finitely to her peers? "Initiate" doesn't mean that the other people are more powerful than her, but more so "more experienced than her". Even when she describes herself as "minuscule" it's not really what I would call myself in front of higher dimensional beings, it is still very much a finite comparison.

Furthermore, she states that was she saw is "the truth of the world". So it means that she saw "everything" in the sense that, what she gazed upon was "the whole thing". She's not saying "a portion of the truth" or "a glimpse of the truth". No. When she entered the demonic heavens and saw her peers, she understood and realized the truth of the world. Adding to that, what she sensed was the "outside" of the world. There was no mention of others realms or others named place, no. She felt powerless in front of the others entities in the demonic heavens, because she was merely an initiate compared to the others.

So let's sum it up, shall we? Kiara, who got to the "demonic heavens", which is outside the world, realized that compared to the other peoples, she was just an insignificant beginner and as such, decided to return to the human dimension.

Also, do you have a citation to your claim that there was absolute no demon who was higher dimensional compared to Kiara?

I don't understand how the burden of proof falls on me when nothing indicates that there are beings of higher dimensionality than Kiara. Truly nothing indicates that.

Do you have a proof that the demonic heavens is a multidimensional plane that can hold multiples demons having different dimensionality to one another?
Do you have a proof that the demonic heavens is an infinite-layered plane?
Do you have a proof that there is an infinite number of planes above the demonic heavens?
Do you have any proof that the beings Kiara saw have a higher dimensionality compared to her when she states she was a novice (a word symbolizing the lack of skill/experience) compared to them?

hope this helps

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

Given that there are (hopefully) temporary problems with our automatic notification bells updates right now, due to our recent server move, I do not think that any staff members that I try to summon here would receive a notification right now.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Given that there are (hopefully) temporary problems with our automatic notification bells updates right now, due to our recent server move, I do not think that any staff members that I try to summon here would receive a notification right now.

my notifications seem to be stable now

 

[Lewis]

Bump

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

@Ultima_Reality

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

bump

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

bump

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

dead thread. Sad

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

this is the argument in support of it

this is the argument for against it

hope this helps

@Antvasima @DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @Mr._Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @Andytrenom @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Just_a_Random_Butler @Agnaa

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

this is the argument in support of it

this is the argument for against it

hope this helps

@Antvasima @DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @Mr._Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @Andytrenom @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Just_a_Random_Butler @Agnaa

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

@Antvasima @DontTalkDT @DarkDragonMedeus @Mr._Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @Andytrenom @Wokistan @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz @Firestorm808 @Everything12 @Maverick_Zero_X @Crabwhale @Just_a_Random_Butler @Agnaa

the amount of required votes have been reached, if there is no more discussion to be had, could this be closed?

 

[KingNanaya]

the amount of required votes have been reached, if there is no more discussion to be had, could this be closed?

it's 3-2 in favor, so no

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

it's 3-2 in favor, so no

theres no guidelines on the differential needed, but there needs to be more agreements than vice verse. This thread has full right to be closed and applied, especially since the opposing party has not replied in months.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Also, admin votes hold more weight than thread mod votes, and this thread has gotten 2. no need to drag this dead crt for longer.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Also, admin votes hold more weight than thread mod votes

Straight up untrue.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Straight up untrue.

Although the evaluation of each staff member carries equal weight, the final decision regarding the approval of a content revision may be influenced by other factors such as the expertise and knowledge of the staff members involved, the complexity and controversy of the revision, and the popularity or prominence of the affected series verse. In terms of decision-making authority, bureaucrats are given the highest consideration, followed by administrators, and then thread moderators.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

In terms of decision-making authority

Edit: Bruh, literally the first sentence right there lmao

Although the evaluation of each staff member carries equal weight

Edit 2: What that means is how the thread is handled and whether it should be applied or not based on the current evaluation.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Edit: Bruh, literally the first sentence right there lmao


Edit 2: What that means is how the thread is handled and whether it should be applied or not based on the current evaluation.

Well i worded it bad but my point was their vote is given more consideration. If you or any of the other staff had any further opinion regarding this matter, they wouldve commented during the 3 or so times they've been called.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Well i worded it bad but my point was their vote is given more consideration. If you or any of the other staff had any further opinion regarding this matter, they wouldve commented during the 3 or so times they've been called.

Again, no. That's false.

What you would require here is an admin to see if the current evaluation is enough to apply this.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Again, no. That's false.

What you would require here is an admin to see if the current evaluation is enough to apply this.

I must've misread it , but whatever. The main point still stands that the threshold has been reached, and neitehr op, the supporters, or the opposition have shown any willingness to discuss this CRT any further, so its well within the right to conclude this according to standards

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

so its well within the right to conclude this according to standards

That's to be determined by evaluating staff. That's where an admin can go over a thread mod.

 

[Deagonx]

Marshadow shouldn't be posting 8 comments in a row like this without staff permission.