Whenever you reference the vsbattle wiki in debates, do people try and shut you down?

[Heatforce]

Whenever I reference this wiki I get "It's a wiki, don't pay attention" or "wiki's don't support debate arguments". I'm curious if I'm alone and would appreciate possible counter-arguments. Kind of annoying because I know this community cares about accurate character tiering over wank (especially when compared to other sites IMO).

 

[Blahblah9755]

Well the argument is of course that here we have calc's backing our feats and a staff members, like Antvasima, who work tirelessly to make sure all stats are accurate as possible. Also you could reply to their rude remarks about how a wiki can't be accurate with something like "and your baseless assumptions are so much better". Another alternative is to cite calcs and whatnot as opposed to the wiki pages at which point most people won't be smart enough to prove debate it, and most of the rest of the people will realize you actually have evidence whereas they don't. That's my thoughts anyway.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am the first to admit that it is impossible to make sure that everything is correct. The staff do not have enough knowledge about all properties, or enough time to check them all up, but that does not mean that we should just give up. Everything is a work in progress, and we have to try to make things gradually better.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I get this soooo much. This happened to me when I debated Gaara vs Toph and Dante vs Bayonetta. I even state that while these are not word of god i feel as though they should be considered. I also express that I feel as these stats while not perfect are more reliable than most since I know what goes on on this wiki during debates.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Every site has their own standards and wikias are admittedly not always the best source of information but not using everything at your disposal in a debate is an unfair restriction and as Antvasima said, we are always aiming to improve the quality of this wikia.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

True, I mean I saw a comment that quoted our site say "vswiki uses scaling and thus is not reliable." It ticks me off seeing as ou pretty much have to scale to get the most accurate stats.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it is impossible to make everybody happy. Either they don't like our tiering system, or our rules of civil conduct, or that every wiki is impossible to keep perfectly accurate per definition.

However, we had around 415000 individual visitors in December, 386500 visitors in January, and 330000 visitors in February (going down since the holidays are over), so overall things are going pretty well for us.

 

[Antvasima]

There are still plenty of problems that need to be gradually addressed and improved upon though.

 

[LordXcano]

The only legitimate problem I could see would be admins having their own "pet series" or the higher end of the tiering system being based around dimensions

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

true, but it really isn't a huge problem as each admin is usually fair.

 

[Antvasima]

Dimensions are fine in terms of pure logic. It makes perfect sense from simple geometry. The only problem is when authors are either too stupid to understand how dimensions work, or simply do not care. Hence, we tend to skip listing characters stated to be higher-dimensional, but without any such inherent properties.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

or the higher end of the tiering system being based around dimensions

Most sites which use the term "megaverse" or "omniverse" also base their tiering around degrees of infinity/dimensions, actually. Even if unknowingly, it's still usually done ("character x is megaversal because he can destroy an infinite number of infinite multiverses" is the same as being 6-D, really) . It's just hard to accurately do when there is absolutely no basis for which to scale things, which is why projective geometry in the tiering system works so well, for us.

 

[Antvasima]

Yup. It is too limiting to use such an extremely small scale to define the ridiculously powerful characters. DarkLK's system is usually much more convenient and flexible for our purposes.

 

[LordXcano]

Yeah I know it makes sense, but it's the same issue we encounter with Mythology when we have to go "Okay well how big were the planets in this myth". Writers just don't care so I think unless a character has nothing going against them being 4D/5D/whateverD then only their feats should count, like Ant said.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Furthermore there are guidelines to ensure some verses aren't rated higher than they should be, such as the "no verse without a legitimate planet busting feat can be upgraded to tier 2 and above".

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yeah I know it makes sense, but it's the same issue we encounter with Mythology when we have to go "Okay well how big were the planets in this myth". Writers just don't care so I think unless a character has nothing going against them being 4D/5D/whateverD then only their feats should count, like Ant said.

We only count them if nothing contradicts their dimensional status. For instance, there are characters from Ben 10 who are supposed to be 5-D, but needed tech to actually destroy basic 4-D universes, thus their status as such is questionable.

 

[LordXcano]

Then that's okay

 

[Blahblah9755]

One problem that I've often run into is that people on other sites obsess over temperature and electricity resistance, which does sort of make sense since IRL heat ignores durability by denaturing proteins and parts of your cells, while electricity can interfere with the electrical signals of the nervous system, as well as cause contractions in muscles. But I assume this is one of those cases where fiction typically ignores stuff like this, and that's why we don't use it.

 

[Antvasima]

@Azathoth Yup. There are also examples of supposedly 5-D beings in Archer & Armstrong, and beyond being able to travel through time, they are no different from ordinary 3-D characters, and can be killed by them without much trouble. Hence, we cannot remotely feature and list them as such.

 

[KyofuSama93]

Yes.

 

[Aurugermil]

People will believe what they want to believe. Even if you give them proof of a superior tiering system, superior calc, evidence, stuff, etc that this site already employed, if the other party doesn't want to hear your opinion, they will simply dismiss it without a second thought.

Such is a nature of human.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it isn't like this tiering system is perfect. We have never claimed that. For example, it is often hard to determine the difference between 3-A and Low 2-C, and as we mentioned earlier, ignorant authors can cause problems, but it is far more flexible, precise, and far-reaching than our old system.

 

[Heatforce]

Well, it isn't like this tiering system is perfect. We have never claimed that. For example, it is often hard to determine the difference between 3-A and Low 2-C, and as we mentioned earlier, ignorant authors can cause problems, but it is far more flexible, precise, and far-reaching than our old system.

Yeah but who has a better tiering system than this site, even before the update?

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Citing wiki as a source is not good for arguments. VSB wiki is one of the most accurate site for character stats and abilites on the entire internet, and we're always open to change and getting better gradually. But wiki can only be used for supporting one's argument in debates, not as primary source.

 

[Heatforce]

Citing wiki as a source is not good for arguments. VSB wiki is one of the most accurate site for character stats and abilites on the entire internet, and we're always open to change and getting better gradually. But wiki can only be used for supporting one's argument in debates, not as primary source.

I understand but it seems in many of my debates that the wiki is dismissed entirely. It's rather frustrating when you know how hard people work here and how passionate the community is. Even most colleges accept Wikipedia as a reference on research papers as long as it isn't the primary source.

 

[DontTalk]

Well, this is basically the reason why the explanations for the stats should be written on the profiles. Only like that they become really useable, especially for off side arguments.

 

[LordXcano]

Well, this is basically the reason why the explanations for the stats should be written on the profiles. Only like that they become really useable, especially for off side arguments.

^^^^^^

It really bugs me when I go onto a profile that just says "Planet Level" with no explanation.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

^That's the same problam i have with that as well. Like a character is listed as a Moon or Planet level being yet there's no explanation as to why they are of that tier....

 

[LordXcano]

I'm thinking maybe we should go through the profiles that have no explanation behind the stats, check the history, and then ask whoever made the page for justification on their wall. If they don't reply in, say, 1 month then the page would be deleted unless someone volunteers to read through the source material.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

What if the person who made the page isn't active in the wiki network anymore? Oh wait, you said that last part about someone volunteering, nvrmind....

 

[DontTalk]

Well, that is the kind of big project that will lead to great chaos and that the staff most of the time can not manage. Such things go to the project list of LordKavpeny.

Generally going through profiles oneself has knowledge of and insert reasoning for that is already enough of a help (and believe me it can keep one busy for quite a while) and if that is done thoroughly and the reasoning behind decisions is noted on the profiles every time changes are made from now on we will gradually reach that state, at a much more manageable pace.

 

[FanofRPGs]

IIRC, on the Glory (Or was it the Grace?) vs Pretcon Beyonder on CV, they hated us because we are "butthurt z-tards"

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I often hear plenty of complaints about the Dimensional System, either from those who do not understand it or are too attached to the Marvel Comics-Based System.

I am also used to hearing accusations of "Anime-Bias", which are often almost tied with complaints for the Dimensional System, with people saying it was made so anime characters would be higher than comics.

... And sometimes it's just hatred towards everyone who doesn't agree with them.

Overall, though, I love this site, and I applaud the people behind it for maintaining what is, in my eyes, a very healthy, peaceful and unbiased atmosphere. And DarkLK's Tiering System is excellent. Yes, some may complain about how it makes nonsense such as "Megaverse Busting!!!" unimpressive, but unlike the previous system it doesn't limit and depower all the characters who were created with Spatial Dimensions in mind (See Umineko, I/O, Cthulhu Mythos... Hell, even some Marvel characters).

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I'm thinking maybe we should go through the profiles that have no explanation behind the stats, check the history, and then ask whoever made the page for justification on their wall. If they don't reply in, say, 1 month then the page would be deleted unless someone volunteers to read through the source material.

Maybe a page where users could post the links to pages without justifications for certain stats and people could browse the page and add info said pages. Not all profiles have to be added to the page at once and people would just add them when they stumble upon them.

I hope I made sense, I'm kind of in a rush.

 

[Sheoth]

I often hear plenty of complaints about the Dimensional System, either from those who do not understand it or are too attached to the Marvel Comics-Based System.
I am also used to hearing accusations of "Anime-Bias", which are often almost tied with complaints for the Dimensional System, with people saying it was made so anime characters would be higher than comics.

They just mad

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

Yeah reasoning for stats would be nice. Not gonna lie

 

[Jucaslucas]

How was the sytem before the current one?

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

How was the sytem before the current one?

For one, we use to had a tier for those who were "above omnipotence". It was a joke tier though which after a while last year we decided to take it out.

 

[Professor_Voodoo]

And this wiki also had joke characters.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

How was the sytem before the current one?

Basically OBDs.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System?direction=prev&oldid=62528