Well boys, it's over- Doomsday Clock has finally ended.

[Ionliosite]

Currently I think it should go:

Byrne Era/Pre-DaRoS (1986-1992) | Pre-OWaW (1992-2001) | Pre-Infinite Crisis/Birthright (2001-2006) | Post Infinite Crisis (2006-2011)

I think that's a little bit too much. Going by Convergence, we would need AT LEAST one for Pre and Post Zero Hour, because DC somehow still thinks ZH is on the level of Crisis and Flashpoint. I would also say a Post-Infinite Crisis one would make sense, for pretty obvious reasons.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Currently I think it should go:

Byrne Era/Pre-DaRoS (1986-1992) | Pre-OWaW (1992-2001) | Pre-Infinite Crisis/Birthright (2001-2006) | Post Infinite Crisis (2006-2011)

I think that's a little bit too much. Going by Convergence, we would need AT LEAST one for Pre and Post Zero Hour, because DC somehow still thinks ZH is on the level of Crisis and Flashpoint. I would also say a Post-Infinite Crisis one would make sense, for pretty obvious reasons.

Byrne Superman, or at least Superman before the Death and Return of Superman and Superman/Doomsday: Hunter Prey is quite frankly nowhere near as powerful as his later incarnations and was intended and shown much weaker, with is best feat being High 4-C tops and it possibly being an outlier among all other scalable feats (Second best feat is High 5-A). Then after these story-arcs he starts getting stronger and more involved in cosmic feats and has different writers; I think it's a good divergence point. Likewise Our Worlds at War was another turning point for Superman after training with Mongul and again becoming vastly stronger, removing his limiters and doing much greater feats more consistently.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Here are the Byrne feats I calculated btw; they are Superman's best calcable feats of the age:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:FanofRPGs/Three_Byrne_Era_"Stellar"_Feats_Analyzed

 

[Ionliosite]

I mean, it's clear Supes wasn't 4-B at all back in the 80s (Post-Crisis, of course), but making a new key just because he didn't have feats on that level back then without an in-universe explanation doesn't see to make much sense. A notorious example of this would be the Marvel Comics characters, who are blatantly weaker on modern stories than what we rate them as but we still have only a key for them.

 

[FanofRPGs]

I mean, it's clear Supes wasn't 4-B at all back in the 80s (Post-Crisis, of course), but making a new key just because he didn't have feats on that level back then without an in-universe explanation doesn't see to make much sense. A notorious example of this would be the Marvel Comics characters, who are blatantly weaker on modern stories than what we rate them as but we still have only a key for them.

Didn't Superman come out after the Death of Return of Superman and Superman/Doomsday: Hunter/Prey much stronger with basically a Zenkai and boost in energy?

 

[NomadLuminary]

That reminds me. Has anyone watched Webcamparrots video regarding the power of Post-Crisis Superman?

 

[Firestorm808]

We have discussed some of those "feats" in a prior thread, and pointed out several errors.

 

[FanofRPGs]

I am curious about more context for the Quantum Mechanics/Heaven's Ladder feat

Also, how do I make a sandbox?

 

[LordUrien935]

Metaverse explained better

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

I tried to create a DC chronology map but I haven't added anything of larger dimensions except the hypertime
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Oliver_de_jesus/DC_Infinity_x_infinity_above_baseline

As it looks.

 

[GlitchedNess]

What about this?

 

[AerrowStorm1]

Currently I think it should go:

Byrne Era/Pre-DaRoS (1986-1992) | Pre-OWaW (1992-2001) | Pre-Infinite Crisis/Birthright (2001-2006) | Post Infinite Crisis (2006-2011)

I've been analyzing 1986-1992, but by far the most important will be 1992-2001 as most of his more obscure and wanked outliers and cosmic feats come from here. 2005-2011 will be plain annoying to go through but it will have Superman's most infamous feats we all know and love.

Oh, because of the in-universe power ups he has? Explictly being stated to be getting stronger?

 

[AerrowStorm1]

I mean, it's clear Supes wasn't 4-B at all back in the 80s (Post-Crisis, of course), but making a new key just because he didn't have feats on that level back then without an in-universe explanation doesn't see to make much sense. A notorious example of this would be the Marvel Comics characters, who are blatantly weaker on modern stories than what we rate them as but we still have only a key for them.

Didn't Superman come out after the Death of Return of Superman and Superman/Doomsday: Hunter/Prey much stronger with basically a Zenkai and boost in energy?

Yes/ Specifically, he got stronger because of his exposure to Kryptonite X to restore his powers (when he first came back, he was weakened to 1/10th of his original power levels) but then had his powers go out of control and Parasite drained them away to, according to the writers "the point jst before" they went out of control. rendering him MUCH stronger than before, but still able to control it.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Yeah I saw that and he also reiterated he got much stronger in Hunter/Prey, so I think he should have a separate key because featwise he is clearly weaker.

I have only found 2 beyond planetary feats for Superman in the Byrne era. Him taking a hit from Star Breaker with the force of a nova (Novae have a force of 1e37 joules) in Justice League America #64 and being hit by a suneater explosion which I calced to be anywhere from low 4-C to High 4-C. The first feat he was knocked out good, and furthermore I am starting to think this story is dubious. Justice League America usually had its canon issues, but this one is connected to a Justice League story from 1972, Superman even referencing the events that went on in it. I don't know, it's connected to Post Crisis but it's just weird. I need clarification.

The second feat I kinda just assumed the mechanisms for the Suneater. I assumed the implosion of the nucleus would outburst all the energy it theoretically absorbed. However I am moreso just not sure if this is consistent. The Byrne era is huge, I estimated about ~610-640 issues, and there could be more feats I haven't found, but almost all planetary, stellar, and above feats really start picking up after the Death and Return of Superman and Superman/Doomsday: Hunter/Prey.

Also, going by the Crisis to Crisis respect thread, Superman sounds more FTL+ to low MFTL in this era.

 

[Antvasima]

This is not a content revision thread. It is probably better to start one if you want to perform revisions.

 

[FanofRPGs]

This is not a content revision thread. It is probably better to start one if you want to perform revisions.

yeah, I will stop discussing it here.

 

[Antvasima]

Thanks.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I liked the event. It suffered greatly from prolonged delays and whatnot, but it was a solid story and I enjoyed how it explored DC Comics and the Meta side of things.

And seeing such a complete refutation of Alan Moore's pessimism and nihilism in a story that is all about the value of traditional heroism and the inspiration these figures bring makes me smile.

I do think that the ending was a bit rushed, and would have prefered more interaction between Superman and Manhattan to truly sell it. A double-sized issue would have solved my problems there.

But I liked it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also in regards to the Earths, I think what is going on is pretty obvious:

• Earth-2 is the Golden Age Earth, with Superman making his arrival in 1938, Justice Society, etc.
• Earth-1985 is the Silver Age Earth. What we essentially call Pre-Crisis. It is NOT Byrne Era Earth. The costumes shown are a big hint of that (Headband Supergirl, Bright Blue and Yellow Batman, Batgirl is standing on her legs literally). It's an Earth where COIE never happened.
• Then we have Earth-52, which is a preservation of the New 52 universe as it was BEFORE all the attempts to "fix it". Basically, the universe Doctor Manhattan created, where the heroes are younger, less experienced, Justice Society never happened and Legion of Superheroes will never happened, and where Superman lost his parents and was never Superboy.

And now we have the current Earth. Earth Prime or Earth 0 or however they wanna call, which by this point is basically just Post-Crisis Earth + Stuff from New 52 continuity they decided to preserve.

 

[Ogbunabali]

So, just to make sure, we're still using Post-Crisis + New 52 feats for the characters right?

Because I'm making a Rebirth version of Deathstroke and I wanna know if I'm supposed to include his PC stuff or not.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yes after the events of Doomsday Clock here thanks to the ending all the changes that led to the removal of Post-Crisis elements were undone. But the events of most New 52 stories obviously still happened. Just forget the whole truncated timeline thing.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Ok, thank you.

 

[Ionliosite]

And seeing such a complete refutation of Alan Moore's pessimism and nihilism in a story that is all about the value of traditional heroism and the inspiration these figures bring makes me smile.

I fully agree with this. The cynism of Watchmen had affected practically all books that came after it, with The Dark Knight Returns and The Death of Superman cementing this grim-dark storytelling as the rule. But now, we're finally out of it. Kingdom Come already showed us that these ruthless anti-heroes won't necessarily make idealist heroes meaningless, and of course that other books tried to show us similar ideas, so seeing that message being done again, but this time, with a direct clash against the ones who started it all (the Watchmen cast), it's truly cathartic. After all it's said and done, the DC Universe has truly undergone a Rebirth.

 

[Antvasima]

There are some changes to the mixture of post-Crisis and post-Flashpoint continuity as well, given that Superman was Superboy, Wally West is still young, and Wonder Woman debuted right before WWII.

 

[LordUrien935]

It's weird to think how all the crazy shit happening in Snyder's JL run takes place before Doomsday Clock.

 

[FanofRPGs]

When is the JLA supposed to end?

And is the Unity Arc over? Did anything actually happen to the Phantom Zone?

 

[LordUrien935]

The JLA run supposedly takes place an entire year before Doomsday Clock.

Not sure about the Unity Arc. Haven't been following Bendis' works.

 

[Ionliosite]

It's weird to think how all the crazy shit happening in Snyder's JL run takes place before Doomsday Clock.

It does? I tho that whole "one year after everything" rule Doomsday Clock had initially was overruled, because there's no way stuff like Bendis' run is happening BEFORE this.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It does? I tho that whole "one year after everything" rule Doomsday Clock had initially was overruled, because there's no way stuff like Bendis' run is happening BEFORE this.

Bendis kinda ****** everything up but yeah blame delays. Doomsday Clock was supposed to be "One Year" into the future, with Heroes in Crisis being the event that would lead up to it. To explain why the world would be in such a dark place when it got there.

But then Heroes in Crisis wasn't that well received (I liked it), Doomsday Clock kept getting delays, Bendis ****** with the Superman Solo series, and Snyder went crazy with his Justice League Storyline, which led to Year of the Villain, and now is leading to Hell Arisen.

If POSSIBLE I'd like to think that a logical timeline would be Heroes in Crisis > Doomsday Clock > Current stuff on Justice League, but that's just my conjecture.

 

[LordUrien935]

HiC in my opinion did Wally a huge disservice as a character. Tom King is better off writing stuff like Mister Miracle, and honestly even his recent Batman stuff is wack.

 

[FanofRPGs]

Where would the Unity Saga stuff stand

And did any of that hype with phantom zone feats pay off?

 

[Davidsteel1]

If POSSIBLE I'd like to think that a logical timeline would be Heroes in Crisis > Doomsday Clock > Current stuff on Justice League, but that's just my conjecture.

There'd still be contradictions unfortunately; since the JSA were apparently still lost and forgotten up until the Flash and GL met with them recently in Snyders' justice league run. So Doomsday clock wouldn't logically happen b4 then.

 

[Antvasima]

I thought that Heroes in Crisis messed too much with the personalities of Booster Gold (though Tom King technically destroyed the character previous to this) and Wally West to like it. I dislike Tom King's approach in general, including what he did to Jack Kirby's New Gods. I also dislike what Bendis has done to the Superman mythos with Krypton, Kandor, artificially aging Superboy, and Superman's milksop characterisation.

Anyway, the Perpetua story must have happened before Doomsday Clock due to the Justice League not recognising the Justice Society and thinking that they were a part of another timeline. It doesn't really fit with Luthor being completely back to normal again, but nevertheless.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Tom King Batman only appeals to shippers. (Which, to be fair, are definitely a portion of the fanbase).

 

[Antvasima]

Tom King in general doesn't care about staying true to the characters. As Frank Miller roughly said, he almost writes them all as a version of himself, i.e. chronically depressed.

 

[Hellbeast1]

@Matthew the early stuff was fine honestly (The I Am Trilogy works as a mirror to Knightfall)

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I do enjoy Scott Snyder's Silver Age Madness, though.

 

[Hellbeast1]

His stuff is pretty fun (not as good as metal but it's good)

 

[Davidsteel1]

Agreed

 

[Antvasima]

Scott Snyder is usually good, yes.