Making Doctor Who Great Again Part 1 - Cosmology/Tiering

[ByAsura]

Just HDE. But I'll go over that in part 3.

 

[Lord_Infinit]

Just HDE. But I'll go over that in part 3.

how goes the conversations with ultima?

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

how goes the conversations with ultima?

Talking to Ultima is like waiting in a 4-hour waiting line, the man is busy.

 

[Eseseso]

Talking to Ultima is like waiting in a 4-hour waiting line, the man is busy.

I'd say it's more like being in the waiting line for that Avatar Ride at Disney World. The one where it started at 22 hours and (as of when I went there in February of 2019) was down to 13 hours.

Probably still long af now.

 

[ByAsura]

I'm not talking to Ultima directly.

Btw, I haven't been active much recently because I'm sick.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

I'm not talking to Ultima directly.

Btw, I haven't been active much recently because I'm sick.

Is fine, we can wait, so hope you get better

 

[Lord_Infinit]

I'm not talking to Ultima directly.

Btw, I haven't been active much recently because I'm sick.

Yeah dude, get better, you did a fantastic job

 

[ByAsura]

After looking it over, I think I've come to a sort of conclusion about how we should treat higher dimensions based on consistency/intent.

See the OP (Higher Dimensions - Examples) for exactly what I'm referring to.

These are all the higher dimensional stories in the OP, categorised by cosmology size (I'll bold these), year, series and author.

Spoiler

At least 37: Logopolis (1981; tv story) - Christopher H. Bidmead

10: Tomb of Valdemar (2000; BBC PDA) - Simon Messingham

Possibly ∞: Infernal Nexus (2001; BS) - Dave Stone

10 or more: Moon Graffiti (1998; BBC Radio) - Stone

11: The Crystal Bucephalus (1994; VMA) - Craig Hinton

11: Millennial Rites (1995; VMA) - Hinton

11: The Quantum Archangel (2001; BBC PDA) - Hinton

At least 35: Cat's Cradle: Time's Crucible (1992; VNA) - Marc Platt

At least 13: Short Trips: Time Signature: The Hunting of the Slook (2006; BBC Books, ST) - Platt

11: Lucifer Rising (1993; VNA) - Jim Mortimore, Andy Lane

11: Parasite (1994; VNA) - Mortimore

11: First Frontier (1994; VNA) - David A. McIntee

11: Autumn Mist (1999; BBC EDA) - McIntee

11: Unnatural History (1999; BBC EDA) - Jonathan Blum, Kate Orman

>11: The Infinity Doctors (1998; BBC Books) - Lance Parkin

At least 13: At Childhood's End (2020; BBC Books) - Sophie Aldred, Mike Tucker, Steve Cole

12: Thirteen Doctors, Thirteen Stories: Spore (2013; Puffin eshort) - Alex Scarrow

At least 12: Meanwhile In The TARDIS (2010; DVD story) - Steven Moffat

26: End of the Line (2015; BFP) - Simon Barnard and Paul Morris

At least 43: 11th Doctor Year 1 #2 (2014; Titan Comics) - Al Ewing

249: The Brakespeare Voyage (2013; FP) - Simon Bucher-Jones, Jonathan Dennis

10: The Death of Art (1996; VNA) - Butcher-Jones

Here's my conclusions about what we should use for N-Space, and what isn't contradictory.

∞

Stone was a fairly prominent author, but I think we can rule out Infernal Nexus due to lack of current information and inconsistencies, especially given that dimensions and multiverses are used interchangeably.

249

Nothing has really gone this high before, and most sources don't really treat TARDISes as even being able interpret information in 249-dimensions; their hard drives are 11-D, and their chameleon circuit creates 12-D datamaps. So, I think we can disregard this.

43

I think it's fine for the size of the universe, but Ewing has only ever written for Doctor Who one storyline. So I'd be just as comfortable writing this one off.

37/35

Logopolis is insanely prominent and a huge/unchangeable part of DW lore, but it was made by a guy who's written 3 other stories. It is, however, supported less complex space-time continuua (like the TARDIS interior) being 35-D in Marc Platt's writings.

26

I see no reason to disregard this, especially since it just refers to how a few universes move in relation to each other. It's not some kind of cap on how complex universes are.

13

Spore is literally written by someone who's never wrote another, officially licensed Doctor Who story. I'd be perfectly fine disregarding this.

At Childhood's End, on the other hand, was written by two people who are very prominent in both 90s Who and modern Who, and the literal actress for Ace. Plus, it just refers to inter-dimensional movement.

12

I see no reason to disregard this, especially since it was written by the show-runner and doesn't set any kind of cap for the cosmology.

11

The thing that stands out to me the most is that all other examples of the 11-D cosmology not by Hinton either predated him/were made at around the same time, and were almost all made by the same group of writers.

Besides that, Hinton's cosmology is pretty isolated outside of one FP story and a few Lethbridge-Stewart novels, so I think it's fair to say that these instances don't form any consistency.

10

I think we can just disregard Tomb of Valdemar. I can take or leave the others, frankly.

Conclusion

All-in-all, I think our go-to for N-Space should be Logopolis here. It doesn't really present an upper limit, so it's also malleable enough to allow us to fit in other kinds of cosmologies, such as 43-dimensions.

The others, like Quantum Archangel, can just be put on a case-by-case basis.

 

[Hasty12345]

Is this for the "universe" or whole cosmology?

 

[ByAsura]

I'm specifically talking about the universe in the conclusion, but I'm also talking about the whole/other cosmologies throughout.

I'll edit the post to clarify.

 

[Hasty12345]

I see. I'm not sure where you want to take the cosmology, obviously, a lot of it seems pretty random with hundreds of authors all adding their sci-fi buzzwords and concepts to the framework of the verses cosmology.

The "universe" as in, the universe we take the events of The Doctors story to take place in is probably the most important cosmological entity to nail down, as I'd imagine 99% of all characters' scaling comes from the universe/universal vortex.

That being said, if we take the multiverse to be a type 4 multiverse as stated in the book, would you consider the entirety of the cosmology to be low 1-A (in Ultima's system should it pass) or whatever equivalent we'd currently put a type 4 multiverse at? From what I can see, the necessary mathematical ingredients are all present in the verse for us to take it with some legitimacy.

 

[ByAsura]

For now, this is what I think works.

Low 2-C Web of Time (Basically just the universe)

Low 1-C Ocean of Time (Near-identical to the MCU)

1-B N-Space (Logopolis, and such)

1-B Universal Vortex (It supports all dimensions of N-Space, and if the universe was exposed to the energies of the Vortex, it'd be destroyed at all levels)

Low 1-A Void

After I ask Ultima about subspace, the total multiverse, the omniverse, and the totality of the Vortex, I think we'll be ready for part 1.2.

 

[Hasty12345]

Looks great!

If only we had some nigh-omnipotent type being that constantly changes the cosmology so we had some canon reason for all these inconsistencies other than a bunch of characters are basically just constantly wrong or confused, it would make things a lot easier

 

[Quasar002]

For now, this is what I think works.

Low 2-C Web of Time (Basically just the universe)

Low 1-C Ocean of Time (Near-identical to the MCU)

1-C N-Space (Logopolis, and such)

1-C Universal Vortex (It supports all dimensions of N-Space, and if the universe was exposed to the energies of the Vortex, it'd be destroyed at all levels)

Low 1-A Void

After I ask Ultima about subspace, the total multiverse, the omniverse, and the totality of the Vortex, I think we'll be ready for part 2.

If the Logopolis quotes are approved (allowing for the incorporation of things from 43 dimensions and perhaps 249 dimensions), would N-space be 1-B? I also agree that the citation of 'Infernal Nexus' should be discarded because the author did not make it clear.

 

[Lord_Infinit]

Looks great!

If only we had some nigh-omnipotent type being that constantly changes the cosmology so we had some canon reason for all these inconsistencies other than a bunch of characters are basically just constantly wrong or confused, it would make things a lot easier

The celestial toymaker?)

 

[Eseseso]

For now, this is what I think works.

Low 2-C Web of Time (Basically just the universe)

Low 1-C Ocean of Time (Near-identical to the MCU)

1-C N-Space (Logopolis, and such)

1-C Universal Vortex (It supports all dimensions of N-Space, and if the universe was exposed to the energies of the Vortex, it'd be destroyed at all levels)

Low 1-A Void

After I ask Ultima about subspace, the total multiverse, the omniverse, and the totality of the Vortex, I think we'll be ready for part 2.

1. Is it safe to assume that all the God Tiers of the Verse (like the 6 Gods) will scale above the Void?

2. What about the 1-B Logopolis stuff above, like 35 dimensions?

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

For now, this is what I think works.

Low 2-C Web of Time (Basically just the universe)

Low 1-C Ocean of Time (Near-identical to the MCU)

1-C N-Space (Logopolis, and such)

1-C Universal Vortex (It supports all dimensions of N-Space, and if the universe was exposed to the energies of the Vortex, it'd be destroyed at all levels)

Low 1-A Void

After I ask Ultima about subspace, the total multiverse, the omniverse, and the totality of the Vortex, I think we'll be ready for part 2.

I fine with this

The celestial toymaker?)

1. Is it safe to assume that all the God Tiers of the Verse (like the 6 Gods) will scale above the Void?

Better to wait for the scaling later in 2 part, of course it is likely that the Guardians will scale to the entire universal Vortex and who knows to the void

2. What about the 1-B Logopolis stuff above, like 35 dimensions?

I think Byasura put 1-C by mistake and not 1-B since he himself indicates that he agrees with that

All-in-all, I think our go-to for N-Space should be Logopolis here

 

[ByAsura]

I think Byasura put 1-C by mistake and not 1-B since he himself indicates that he agrees with that

Indeed.

1. Is it safe to assume that all the God Tiers of the Verse (like the 6 Gods) will scale above the Void?

Not sure about the Six-Fold Gods. That'll be some time in the future.

 

[Lord_Infinit]

welp, lets see where this goes

 

[Hasty12345]

It appears there might be a freeze on 1-A and above tiers for the time being. If we all agree the Universe is below the 1-A tiers and that the 1-A stuff becomes arguable at the multiverse level, maybe we should compile all the evidence for the tiering of the universe and have that evaluated and tackle the multiverse later?

 

[ByAsura]

I don't think even the Omniverse will surpass High 1-B, let alone 1-A, at this point.

Anyway, it seems that Platonism and R>F transcendence are dead ends because they don't have enough levels/detail.

 

[Hasty12345]

1-A probably not, but low 1-A is on the cards and is being affected by Ultima's revisions

 

[ByAsura]

I guess we'll just leave The Void in remission for now.

 

[Lord_Infinit]

I don't think even the Omniverse will surpass High 1-B, let alone 1-A, at this point.

Anyway, it seems that Platonism and R>F transcendence are dead ends because they don't have enough levels/detail.

High 1-B...
Again...

 

[Hasty12345]

If we're gonna go down the 1-B universal vortex route, the one thing I wanna add that's might not be too controversial is that the verse describes travelling between universes as going "sideways in time", which may indicate the multiverse is at least +1D to the universal vortex given time is now 2D on that level.

 

[Lord_Infinit]

I don't think even the Omniverse will surpass High 1-B, let alone 1-A, at this point.

Anyway, it seems that Platonism and R>F transcendence are dead ends because they don't have enough levels/detail.

are you sure that the glory cant get to 1-A?

 

[ByAsura]

On second thought, I think I misunderstood an important aspect of Type IV multiverses.

 

[Lord_Infinit]

On second thought, I think I misunderstood an important aspect of Type IV multiverses.

pls no more nerfs

 

[ByAsura]

Might get an upgrade, actually.

Also, for anyone wondering, the multiversal vortex is going to be > the multiverse no matter what. It's explicit that the multiverse would get wiped away like a sand castle if it fell into the Vortex.

 

[Lord_Infinit]

Might get an upgrade, actually.

Also, for anyone wondering, the multiversal vortex is going to be > the multiverse no matter what. It's explicit that the multiverse would get wiped away like a sand castle if it fell into the Vortex.

I´d like to ask, is the six fold realm beyond the concepts of the universe?

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

I´d like to ask, is the six fold realm beyond the concepts of the universe?

It is confusing, in QA, when the master is assaulted by Kronos he says that it comes from the deepest levels of reality and the guardians are compared to the universe itself, however the Chronovores are recognized as gardeners of multiverse.

Then there is that the beginning of the War in Heaven the Meti Celesties saw the battle of the enemy and Gallifrey as a threat so they disconnect the Six-fold realm and moved it beyond the reach of the "Shockwave" (not that a Shockwave would be generated I'm being poetic) and when It finished they put it back together


so it's more than that the Six fold Realm is probably at the absolute limit of N-Space to the the multiverse

 

[Hasty12345]

is this the universe multiverse or the multiverse multiverse?

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

is this the universe multiverse or the multiverse multiverse?

What you mean?

 

[Hasty12345]

What you mean?

According to the OP, the universe is more of a multiverse, at least as far as I can tell. If I’m being honest, I’m still trying to wrap my head around some aspects of this cosmology.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

According to the OP, the universe is more of a multiverse, at least as far as I can tell. If I’m being honest, I’m still trying to wrap my head around some aspects of this cosmology.

Ah, yes, I will give a simple interpretation of how things are organized (@ByAsura, if I'm wrong about something, correct me)

N-Space contains countless-infinite timelines divergent from the "true" history that is the web of time, being a multiverse in simple terms but to avoid confusion we refer to it as ocean of time.

The vortex contains the entire N-space


The Six fold realm is beyond the vortex, being the pinnacle of reality, which may or may not be a section of the multiverse depending on interpretation.

 

[Quasar002]

Ah, yes, I will give a simple interpretation of how things are organized (@ByAsura, if I'm wrong about something, correct me)

N-Space contains countless-infinite timelines divergent from the "true" history that is the web of time, being a multiverse in simple terms but to avoid confusion we refer to it as ocean of time.

The vortex contains the entire N-space


The Six fold realm is beyond the vortex, being the pinnacle of reality, which may or may not be a section of the multiverse depending on interpretation.

The lux aeterna that exists at the heart of the Calabi-Yau space is described by the doctor as sustaining the entire multiverse: not just the universe, but any and every other that may exist.

This opens the door to many interpretations, but would it be correct to say that the lux aeterna sustains successor universes (saraquazel universe) and all others? There's also the matter of pre-universe things. After all, what tier does the pre-universe fall into (referring to the irrational pre-universe) in cosmology? Due to its strange nature, the pre-universe might take a high level.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

The lux aeterna that exists at the heart of the Calabi-Yau space is described by the doctor as sustaining the entire multiverse: not just the universe, but any and every other that may exist.

Forgot this

This opens the door to many interpretations, but would it be correct to say that the lux aeterna sustains successor universes (saraquazel universe) and all others? There's also the matter of pre-universe things. After all, what tier does the pre-universe fall into (referring to the irrational pre-universe) in cosmology? Due to its strange nature, the pre-universe might take a high level.

Eh, honestly not sure, it likely would be countless in 1-B or something different

 

[Lord_Infinit]

Welp, how IS It going?

 

[Hasty12345]

Does the Land of Fiction section contain any information from the "The Wonderful Doctor of Oz " novel, which is a book I just found out exists and looks super interesting

 

[ByAsura]

The extra sandbox has some.

Welp, how IS It going?

I haven't received the answers yet.