Welcome to Pagemageddon! Bill Cipher Rework.

[Phoenks]

This is what I call an assumption.

Not assumption, I just don't think that surviving the destruction of a multiverse is a 2-A feat of durability on VSBW.

I might be wrong though.

The argument for it being tier 1 would be that the nightmare realm itself is higher dimensional, as its referred to as a higher plane, encompasses an entire infinite multiverse, and a realm outside of it which views said multiverse & its time as strips of tape, so I think it being tier 1 is reasonable.

Higher-dimensional means 4-D and would still allow it to encompass a multiverse and be a higher plane, especially relative to 2-D or 3-D stuff. Viewing time like that is also still just 4-D.

All of the arguments have been disputed for being evidence of anything 5-D. It requires a huge reach.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Let me admit first that I have not read any of this thread beyond the OP, but I just wanted to give thoughts on one thing in particular.

Bill is the king of the Nightmare Realm and controls all of it, the nightmare realm is the space between universes making it infinite in size for encompassing the space between infinite universes

From what I understand...

1. The space between timelines is automatically a higher dimensional brane, as our very tiering system recognizes.

2. Such a space still needs decent qualitative superiority to qualify for Low 1-C (though the evidence required is lesser, since there's already a basis for higher dimensions). An easy way to attain this is to prove that said space is infinite in size, hence why the Ocean In Between for Kingdom Hearts was upgraded to Low 1-C.

The argument here is that the Nightmare Realm is infinite in size since the multiverse is already confirmed to be 2-A, but I have to disagree. We would have to upgrade a whole lot of 2-A verses going by that logic. The multiverse being infinite only proves that the coordinate plane representing the Nightmare Realm space has an infinite 4th axis. A good way to envision it is through an infinitely long rectangle.

The X-axis will represent the 4th dimension here, and the Y-axis will represent the 5th dimension. The multiverse is infinite, so the 4th axis is more than significant enough, but the actual 5th dimension (the space in and of itself) is not tierable.

Don't take this as me disagreeing, I'm actually inclined to agree with the upgrade. I just had give my two cents. I don't think the fact that a space between timelines holds infinite universes means that the 5th dimension is infinite, you'd need an infinite statement that applies to the space in itself.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Not assumption, I just don't think that surviving the destruction of a multiverse is a 2-A feat of durability on VSBW.

I might be wrong though.

If the multiverse is a 2-A structure and the character survived from its full destruction output physically (not hax or some mechanics), it is 2-A durability.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Higher-dimensional means 4-D and would still allow it to encompass a multiverse and be a higher plane, especially relative to 2-D or 3-D stuff. Viewing time like that is also still just 4-D.

All of the arguments have been disputed for being evidence of anything 5-D. It requires a huge reach.

Even if the statement is exiting The Fourth Dimension to another plane between time and space, to view all of it the fourth dimension as if it was strips of film?

 

[Phoenks]

If the multiverse is a 2-A structure and the character survived from its full destruction output physically (not hax or some mechanics), it is 2-A durability.

The thing is, Bill isn't 2-A in size, so he can't take the full force of a 2-A destruction.

Also, I find that weird. Like, how is just surviving space and time being destroyed around you a feat of durability? It's not like you are the thing being directly affected by that power.

I mostly just see it as a resistance to existence erasure on a 2-A level and acausality. But that's just me personally.

If that's how it's treated on vsbw, then that's fine I guess.

 

[Mariogoods]

I disagree with the Low 1-C

Note: Bill being a threat to the multiverse doesn't indicate that he is able to destroy all of it. It simply means that he isn't a localized threat, as he has the ability to travel to other universes.

Blendin knowing that the universe was destroyed means his best feat explicitly can't be Low 2-C, as the timeline isn't destroyed by it. That knowledge could have come from the Time Police in the future, or when Blendin fled he could have travelled to another point in time to know that the universe would be destroyed, since he mentioned it as something that already happened.

Stanford Pines was worried that Bill might destroy the universe despite how Bill only told him his delusional plan of chaotically ruling it over, while causing notably less damage around in the universe but without destroying it all, meaning that Ford likely knew what Bill could cause. "The very fabric of" something and mentioning "existence" don't necessarily mean the entirety of something and all the realities in a verse respectively, unless proven, and Time Baby clearly referred to the universe as that was what Blendin said was destroyed and what Ford was repeatedly worried that Bill might destroy.

Unless a strong argument is presented to counter this statement, 2-A or Low 1-C is not something considerable. First, if the statement is from characters who don't even know how multiverse works (or didn't have ways to even know if multiverse is really affected), it is unreliable. Second, Bill's own statement should be used cautiously because he's full of hyperbole. I'm sorry that I cannot provide additional help in this.

By the way, which type Madness Manipulation does Bill have?

Also, your additional limb CRT? https://vsbattles.com/threads/minor-bill-cipher-crt.158367/

 

[ZeedKZ]

Blendin's statement is so far the worst attempt to deny Bill being 2-A. Imagine someone who has a extremely limited perception of reality, not having knowledge of the existence of other timelines, a incompetent who couldn't understand the true situation of the Weirdmageddon, being put above Stanford's statements, who has actual knowledge of Bill Cipher and the multiverse for travelling throughout for decades.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

"The Multiversal Threat" statements are really just supporting evidence for the Nightmare Realm feat

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Blendin's statement is so far the worst attempt to deny Bill being 2-A. Imagine someone who has a extremely limited perception of reality, not having knowledge of the existence of other timelines, a incompetent who couldn't understand the true situation of the Weirdmageddon, being put above Stanford's statements, who has actual knowledge of Bill Cipher and the multiverse for travelling throughout for decades.

I think Stanford's statements and stuff are the most solid and supported evidence, while Blendin's statements about the nature of time travel & the fourth dimension/In-Between Space should be treated similarly highly considering Blendin, while a little incompetent, does work for the Time Patrol and clearly has knowledge of how time travel works and shows awareness of alternate timelines.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Blendin's statement is so far the worst attempt to deny Bill being 2-A. Imagine someone who has a extremely limited perception of reality, not having knowledge of the existence of other timelines, a incompetent who couldn't understand the true situation of the Weirdmageddon, being put above Stanford's statements, who has actual knowledge of Bill Cipher and the multiverse for travelling throughout for decades.

Regardless of his perception, Bill successfully fusing the Multiverse and the Nightmare Realm with Weirdmageddon would make the universe just a part of the nightmare realm. It's clearly not literal destruction, he's fusing them, which would get rid of the universes as they're known, effectively destroying them.

Blendin being alive after Weirdmageddon and recording that Bill succeeded doesn't disprove anything.

Personally i'm fine with 2-A because Bill is stated to be a threat, but isn't trying to DESTROY the multiverse. He's trying to fuse it with The Nightmare Realm to expand his territory. There's also an argument that his power scales with the size of The Nightmare Realm, since he got stronger the more it corrupted the multiverse and got bigger.

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

shows awareness of alternate timelines

When exactly? I don't remember him being aware of alternate universes like Ford in the show.

 

[ZeedKZ]

I think Stanford's statements and stuff are the most solid and supported evidence, while Blendin's statements about the nature of time travel & the fourth dimension/In-Between Space should be treated similarly highly considering Blendin, while a little incompetent, does work for the Time Patrol and clearly has knowledge of how time travel works and shows awareness of alternate timelines.

We do see the Time Police being aware of how time travel works (past, present and future shenanigans), but not alternate universes/dimensions/timelines, like the ones that Stanford travels.

 

[Dog3352]

On its own, yes. Funny how you ignore that the other evidence is enough.

Archie Sonic and Arceus.

Archie Sonic and Arceus (2).

Archie Sonic has 2 statements of transcendence, one from a higher plane, one from beyond understanding and beyond space-time.
Arceus is stated to "be the God who transcends all", and his realm is beyond space-time.

These are very different from Bill's case.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

We do see the Time Police being aware of how time travel works (past, present and future shenanigans), but not alternate timelines, like the ones that Stanford travels.

from the CYOA book.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I remember this was used in the G1^2 blog to justify that the Nightmare Realm treats infinite 4-D Space-times as like insignificant to it,

Additionally, since the Nightmare Realm was going to ‘fill’ the entire universe, without it being depleted (as the universes wouldn’t collide with each other, which would happen if there was nothing in-between them), and this filling was affecting the entire timeline, the Nightmare Realm would be so large that filling an entire four-dimensional space-time continuum would not deplete its infinite volume (since the Nightmare Realm is ‘in-between’ infinite universes, it necessarily must be infinite), despite this four-dimensional space-time continuum being capable of containing spatially infinite things, fourth-dimensional infinite loops, as well as the timeline containing infinite future temporal points. As such, the infinite Nightmare Realm was capable of filling an infinite four-dimensional space without depleting any of its own infinite volume whatsoever, indicating that the infinite volume of the Nightmare Realm is even more ‘infinite’ than the volume of an infinite four-dimensional continuum.

Do wonder if it's valid

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

The thing is, Bill isn't 2-A in size, so he can't take the full force of a 2-A destruction.

Unless I'm missing major context here then please ignore my reply but I was under the impression when you reach High 3-A or higher, the size of the DC (destructive capacity) becomes irrelevant towards AP/durability since we're dealing with infinite power at that point also most 2-A characters here aren't physically the size of multiverses last time I checked.

If that's how it's treated on vsbw, then that's fine I guess.

Tbf 2-A standards are still "quirky" around here with the old Endless/Countless Vs Infinite debates and above "baseline" 2-A.

I agree Bill should get at least tier 2 hax, it literally contradicts a large chunk of Gravity Falls lore if Bill just had 3-A hax at his peak yet is explicitly stated to be a dire threat to a (at minimum) 2-A structure not to mention characters that monitor/travel the GF multiverse are terrified of Bill escaping his prison (even with 2-A dimensional travel and infinite time, how can a 3-A with MFTL+ speed be narratively considered a major threat to a 2-A structure?, it would literally take Bill infinite time to just destroy/majorly effect one Low 2-C structure).

Tl;Dr: I agree 3-A is a major and unfair lowball and Bill should at least get tier 2 hax as for everything else such as speed, other P&A, tier 1, Bill's physical rating, etc I'm neutral on since he is a pretty difficult character to rate properly (mostly due to PiS).

 

[Tyranno223]

Bit of a sidenote, but doesn't Bill show up to Blendin in the future within Journal 3?

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Bit of a sidenote, but doesn't Bill show up to Blendin in the future within Journal 3?

Yes, but he also does it within the show itself. Considering that in order to possess Blendin in the first place he would have had to go forwards in time.

The Journal just confirms that's what happened further by giving Blendin's account.

 

[Tyranno223]

Yes, but he also does it within the show itself. Considering that in order to possess Blendin in the first place he would have had to go forwards in time.

The Journal just confirms that's what happened further by giving Blendin's account.

Should he not gain Time Travel as an ability, or would this already be covered by the Nightmare Realm's funkiness.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Should he not gain Time Travel as an ability, or would this already be covered by the Nightmare Realm's funkiness.

Pretty sure he already has that.

 

[Tyranno223]

Pretty sure he already has that.

Oh, must have missed that then. Never mind.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

Disagree on Low 1-C and 2-A rating being concrete, would be fine with "Possibly 2-A" though

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Also that. I think that disgreading Low 1-C completely is just too nitpicky for my taste, VBW is already known to be extremely nitpicky and overly strict on basically almost anything even when it does not make sense just for the sake of a "safe end", so let's not fall it here too, please.

After looking over the arguments, I honestly have to strongly agree with Phoenks on Low 1-C. I don't see enough evidence of qualitative superiority.

Multiversal+ likely Low Complex Multiverse (Shown that Ford with his powers could use them to grow larger than a galaxy, he is stated twice to threaten the wider multiverse and its also stated that the rip in reality would destroy the fabric of existence.[2] Weirdmaggedon had already affected the multiverse slightly by having rift in other dimensions[10] further supporting the fact that Weirdmaggedon was a multiversal threat. Bill is the king of the Nightmare Realm and controls all of it, the nightmare realm is the space between universes making it infinite in size for encompassing the space between infinite universes it also contains Penrose triangles and Penrose stairs which are four dimensional, You can view all of human history in it and its stated to be a higher realm this all is supported by Ford needing the five dimensional calculus to help make the portal. Nightmare realm was shaken as soon as the portal reopened, Bill's death caused the rip to close implying he was the one keeping it open and was likely going to increase the size, Ford at that point couldn't find an energy source powerful enough to kill Bill despite the fact he created something capable of containing the rift)

Let's see what we have to work with here.

1. The Nightmare Realm contains infinite universes, so it must be infinite in size.

2. It's the space between universes.

3. It contains Penrose trianges and stairs, which are 4-D.

4. The Axatotl lives in a realm between space-time from which you can view the 4th dimension and infinite timelines like movie strips.

5. It's stated to be a higher plane of existence.

6. Ford needed to perform 5th dimensional Calculus just to construct the portal.

Let me go over why I disagree with Low 1-C.

It's the space between universes.

We already assume that the space between timelines is higher dimensional, the question is whether or not such a space has anything significant enough to warrant being tiered.

Ford needed to perform 5th dimensional Calculus just to construct the portal.

Yes, because it is indeed 5-D. The question is, if it is significant enough to be Low 1-C.

It contains Penrose trianges and stairs, which are 4-D.

Indeed, a realm with 4 dimensions of space will be expected to hold spatially 4-D objects.

The Nightmare Realm contains infinite universes, so it must be infinite in size.

As I mentioned above, containing infinite 4-D objects doesn't make the Nightmare Realm itself spatially infinite. Under this basis, all 2-A multiverses would be Low 1-C for holding infinite In-Between spaces. You would need an "infinite" statement that applies to the realm specifically. Otherwise, it just means the 4th axis is infinite.

The Axatotl lives in a realm between space-time from which you can view the 4th dimension and infinite timelines like movie strips.

Viewing something as spatially flat isn't enough to qualify for R>F transcendence.

"However, lower-dimensional beings being stated to be "flat" in comparision to higher-dimensional aliens is not necessarily grounds for assuming the latter has infinitely more power (For reasons outlined in the answer above), and thus, such scenarios must also be analyzed case-by-case."

It's stated to be a higher plane of existence.

Okay, this is the most valid supporting evidence I've seen. However, it's not necessarily enough for Low 1-C. I see a lot of people saying that Archie Sonic got Low 1-C for having a higher plane beyond space-time, but i think they had more evidence.

The Chaos force is described as a higher plane of reality outside time and space.

Athair described his oneness with the chaos force as existing in a zone beyond comprehension.

Reaching it is stated to be an act of transcending.

Mathias, who used chaos energy, stated the concept of time was irrelevant to himself.

The Chaos force is described as the all-encompassing energy of the universe.

Qualitative Superiority over space-time means being beyond infinitely greater than space-time. Such transcendence would require viewing space-time as essentially having "zero value" in a higher dimension. The chaos force is not just a higher plane "beyond" space-time, it's stated to be "transcendent" of space-time along with viewing space-time as conceptually irrelevant.

 

[Phoenks]

Unless I'm missing major context here then please ignore my reply but I was under the impression when you reach High 3-A or higher, the size of the DC (destructive capacity) becomes irrelevant towards AP/durability since we're dealing with infinite power at that point also most 2-A characters here aren't physically the size of multiverses last time I checked.


Tbf 2-A standards are still "quirky" around here with the old Endless/Countless Vs Infinite debates and above "baseline" 2-A.

I agree Bill should get at least tier 2 hax, it literally contradicts a large chunk of Gravity Falls lore if Bill just had 3-A hax at his peak yet is explicitly stated to be a dire threat to a (at minimum) 2-A structure not to mention characters that monitor/travel the GF multiverse are terrified of Bill escaping his prison (even with 2-A dimensional travel and infinite time, how can a 3-A with MFTL+ speed be narratively considered a major threat to a 2-A structure?, it would literally take Bill infinite time to just destroy/majorly effect one Low 2-C structure).

Tl;Dr: I agree 3-A is a major and unfair lowball and Bill should at least get tier 2 hax as for everything else such as speed, other P&A, tier 1, Bill's physical rating, etc I'm neutral on since he is a pretty difficult character to rate properly (mostly due to PiS).

I thought about it a bit. If surviving the nuking of a 2-A structure is 2-A durability then I'm fine for that being Bill's peak.


It should be noted that Bill becomes stronger as Weirdmaggedon goes on so by the breaking point he would probably just be 2-A in durability "up to" is probably fine based on that.


There is an argument to be made that "existence" here doesn't meant multiverse, though.

Do we have counters for that?

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

There is an argument to be made that "existence" here doesn't meant multiverse, though.

Hate to be "that guy", but in the context of Gravity Falls, no one ever refers to individual universes as "existence" (Universe, world, reality, dimension, but never existence). So I feel as if "existence" here would have to mean something different, like the entire multiverse, which is supported by statements from Ford, the character who is probably the most knowledgeable on Bill out of everyone in the show.

 

[Phoenks]

Hate to be "that guy", but in the context of Gravity Falls, no one ever refers to individual universes as "existence" (Universe, world, reality, dimension, but never existence). So I feel as if "existence" here would have to mean something different, like the entire multiverse, which is supported by statements from Ford, the character who is probably the most knowledgeable on Bill out of everyone in the show.

Feel free to be that guy. Im not disagreeing with it being 2-A I'm just saying staff such as Efi have used the argument of "existence not meaning multiverse" to downplay Bill to the, frankly, dishonest tier of 3-A.

By the way, Efi, if you're reading this. 3-A is completely wrong.

A rip in a dimension is not just be a matter of space. It would need to affect the entire space time. This is one of the reasons Time Baby was so involved in the first place. It was not going to just affect matter in the universe. It was the fabric of reality, as he said.

At minimum it's Low 2-C.

This is supported by the rip also reaching completely other universes in the multiverse. 3-A is a hilariously wrong scale for this feat.


Oh, yeah, the rip going to other universes definitely supports the "existence = multiverse" thing. So I agree with it.

 

[Ayewale]

Hmm, trying to make a Wiki Profile based off a Death Battle. What could go wrong?

Right off the bat, granting Bill all of his Mindscape powers is a no. There is zero indication that these powers crossover from dream bill to real world bill. None whatsoever. It wasn't accepted in the past and your profile doesn't have a single justification for it, so that's a no.

His Pain Manipulation Resistance is absolutely ridiculous. First off, what do you mean 'other than his eye??' He's never shown to feel pain because that's literally the only time he ever takes real damage in the series apart from Ford shooting his hat; that's not a feat at all. Second off, the Dipper thing you cited would actually be an anti-feat: it implies that he cannot feel pain within his Mindscape form, which would mean Physical Bill has no such resistance (as showing by him feeling pain).

His Love Resistance is a joke, get rid of it.

Power Null resistance is very weird because the totem just...turned back to normal? Of course it wouldn't work on Bill, the weirdness wave was literally caused by him, there's nothing normal for him to turn back to! This isn't useable Power Nullification.

The Teleportation from him going away from Gideon is fair enough but non combat-applicable. The other 'teleportation' feat is pretty lame since Dipper does act at all like Bill disappeared right in front of him...and we see Bill drifting down.

Mind Manipulation:

• That first feat is...not mind manip nor telepathy. "He would trick or possess anyone!" doesn't say that he can read the thoughts of others as he pleases??? I'll assume this is a mistake.
• First off, this feat has no sound (which is important since it's where the feat is coming from). Second it's hard to argue this is even a power of his since he literally never does this in the show despite it being useful in every single appearance he makes. There's Plot-Induced Stupidity and then there's "this probably isn't a power and is a one-off joke".
• The third feat is Bill's dream manip, there's no mind manip here whatsoever.

Precognition:

• In general, Bill's Precognition wouldn't really be combat applicable in any sense given that he uses it to his advantage literally zero times in the series. Again, this can't really be passed over as Character Induced Stupidity: it rather plainly isn't powerful or consistent enough to be marginally useful.
  • The first feat doesn't really mean anything since Bill is an incredibly, unbelievably arrogant character. He could easily just believe that it'll happen at some point or just be totally self-assured in his victory. This would be like Doctor Doom saying "One day, I will destroy you, Richards!" and giving him Precognition for defeating him later on.
  • Second feat is better but it's literally just Bill waving his arms and screaming after suddenly leaving a dreamscape. Given that Bill has been doing this for thousands of years at minimum, it doesn't seem too hard to just...predict. Dipper's reaction isn't that specific.
  • Third feat can be passed off as a joke. Fourth feat is a joke I've heard in real life.
  • Fifth feat is the only real support for Precognition but it'd be Limited since bill can only really see how someone dies (and not in any way that helps since despite him apparently knowing how and when Ford dies he couldn't piece together that he probably loses).
  • Sixth feat is Clairvoyance.

Memory Manip should be limited.

Non-Physical Interaction should be given a 'Possible' rating since it's extremely vague. Air Manipulation is so random that I honestly don't know if we should give it a Possible rating.

Changing an intro of a show doesn't really count for Plot Manipulation, especially since it's (to my knowledge) never actually acknowledged in the show itself.

Get rid of the Enhanced on his Energy Projection (especially Time Baby's).

His intangibility seems pretty fake as I (a) feel like he would've used it at least once outside of this and (b) it looks more like a portal of sorts? At best you could give him limited Space Manipulation.

"Has the ability to control space entirely with likely no restrictions". Where the flying **** did that last line come from?

Type 7 size manipulation should be "Type 6, Possibly Type 7" since Ford growing to the size of a galaxy is a vision--from a Bill trying to trick Ford into allying with him.

Power Bestowal has no link.



Infinite Perception Speed seems incredibly fake to me, because (a) we see Bill being taken by surprise at least a few times in the series and (b) this assumes that he was seeing every single side of the kaleidoscope and that he was experiencing everything all at once. I can imagine why this wouldn't be the case...so it's a no from me.

Durability should be Possibly Galaxy Level, same as Lifting Strength.

Infinite Stamina for the Mindscape should be changed to Unknown since it has incredibly flimsy reasoning. It applying to RW Bill is, as stated at the beginning of this post, wrong.

His Multiversal+ Range is entirely unjustified (and I am struggling to recall what it could even be based off in the first place).

I made a CRT for this but his Extraordinary Genius rating on the normal profile was flawed then, and since it hasn't changed it's flawed now.



Attack Potency:

• "Weirdmageddon already affected the multiverse due to rips in other dimensions" does literally nothing for Bill's AP here because it wouldn't be an AP feat. At very best it'd be used for his range but since it was unintentional, delete this from his AP rating. It doesn't support Weirdmageddon being a multiversal threat at all.
  • Also we see four dimensions, which is terrible proof for a justification for it affecting the entire multiverse.
• The two citations of Bill threatening the multiverse likely refer to him being able to travel across the multiverse, not being able to destroy it all outright. "He threatens x, so he destroys x!" as sole justification for a rating is a thoroughly debunked line of logic on the Wiki.
• 'A rip destroying the fabric of existence' was referring exclusively to Dimension 46, the dimension Gravity Falls takes place in.
• "Bill is the king of the Nightmare Realm and controls all of it..." He controls it? Where is this from?
  • Bill being the King of the Nightmare Realm means nothing for his rating, delete this.
  • Seeing all of human history in it does nothing for this rating.
  • Where does 'a Pentrose Triangle is 4-dimensional' come from? Pentrose triangles are 2-dimensional optical illusions; at best, the Wikipedia article on Pentrose Triangles claim that they are hypothetically possible in a three dimensional space.
  • Fifth-dimensional calculus is the best proof you've got but it's also pretty flimsy since a direct link between that and the dimension being fifth-dimensional is impossible to ascertain (calculus is really complicated and there's a myriad of reasons Ford could bring it up).
  • "Bill's death caused the rip to close implying he was the one keeping it open and was likely going to increase the size, Ford at that point couldn't find an energy source powerful enough to kill Bill despite the fact he created something capable of containing the rift)"
    • I'm not a fan of the Bill subsisting the Rift arguments as a whole due to the rift existing independent of Bill upon creation and for a while after the fact. You could argue "rifts are what allowed Bill to travel from the Nightmare Realm' but I don't agree with that because the comics show us that the other rifts allowed for the exact same thing.
    • Containing the rift would be a matter of space-time manipulation, not anything that you could equivocate to 'power'.
    • 'Ford at that point couldn't find an energy source powerful enough to kill Bill' is a really dishonest interpretation of that scan. He (a) couldn't find a fuel source for a weapon that could kill him and (b) even if a wasn't a thing, he says he can't find something "with the necessary power and the required stability". This implies he did find an energy source powerful enough, but not stable enough.

Keep the page as is.

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

Hate to be "that guy", but in the context of Gravity Falls, no one ever refers to individual universes as "existence" (Universe, world, reality, dimension, but never existence). So I feel as if "existence" here would have to mean something different, like the entire multiverse, which is supported by statements from Ford, the character who is probably the most knowledgeable on Bill out of everyone in the show.

Heck if anything, it makes even more sense for it to mean more than just a singular universe. The statement in question comes from Time Baby, who is the leader of future humanity and the Time Patrol. As demonstrated above by Kirbonic, even the worst and most incompetent member of the force (Blendin) is aware of alternate timelines and stuff.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Keep the page as is.

Truly would be the worst timeline lol

 

[Maizesoup]

Keep the page as is.

Even though you're proposing that Bill Cipher's Stamina stat should be altered to Unknown. IMO, rating his Stamina as at least Superhuman, likely/possibly Infinite is better given that he doesn't know/remember what being tired is like in his 1 trillion years of existence.

 

[Phoenks]

Hmm, trying to make a Wiki Profile based off a Death Battle. What could go wrong?

A lot of things, yeah. I agree with much of what you said, gonna go over it.

Right off the bat, granting Bill all of his Mindscape powers is a no. There is zero indication that these powers crossover from dream bill to real world bill. None whatsoever. It wasn't accepted in the past and your profile doesn't have a single justification for it, so that's a no.

I agree.

His Pain Manipulation Resistance is absolutely ridiculous. First off, what do you mean 'other than his eye??' He's never shown to feel pain because that's literally the only time he ever takes real damage in the series apart from Ford shooting his hat; that's not a feat at all. Second off, the Dipper thing you cited would actually be an anti-feat: it implies that he cannot feel pain within his Mindscape form, which would mean Physical Bill has no such resistance (as showing by him feeling pain).

I agree, once he gains a physical form he can feel pain again, especially on his eye. He is shown to create actual tissue and stuff with his form. It'd also be in-character since he actually enjoys the feeling of pain. Should just be in his Mindscape key.

Outside of his eye he does have a lot of pain tolerance though. But that's stamina.

His Love Resistance is a joke, get rid of it.

Power Null resistance is very weird because the totem just...turned back to normal? Of course it wouldn't work on Bill, the weirdness wave was literally caused by him, there's nothing normal for him to turn back to! This isn't useable Power Nullification.

The Teleportation from him going away from Gideon is fair enough but non combat-applicable. The other 'teleportation' feat is pretty lame since Dipper does act at all like Bill disappeared right in front of him...and we see Bill drifting down.

All agree.

Mind Manipulation:

• That first feat is...not mind manip nor telepathy. "He would trick or possess anyone!" doesn't say that he can read the thoughts of others as he pleases??? I'll assume this is a mistake.
• First off, this feat has no sound (which is important since it's where the feat is coming from). Second it's hard to argue this is even a power of his since he literally never does this in the show despite it being useful in every single appearance he makes. There's Plot-Induced Stupidity and then there's "this probably isn't a power and is a one-off joke".
• The third feat is Bill's dream manip, there's no mind manip here whatsoever.

This is where I start disagreeing. The first feat is very clearly telepathy. Ford got a metal plate around his head just so Bill couldn't read his mind.

Being able to enter minds through contracts and do whatever you want in there is mind manipulation. It's just limited and not combat applicable.

In general, Bill's Precognition wouldn't really be combat applicable in any sense given that he uses it to his advantage literally zero times in the series. Again, this can't really be passed over as Character Induced Stupidity: it rather plainly isn't powerful or consistent enough to be marginally useful.

Agreed.

Changing an intro of a show doesn't really count for Plot Manipulation, especially since it's (to my knowledge) never actually acknowledged in the show itself.

Agree.

Type 7 size manipulation should be "Type 6, Possibly Type 7" since Ford growing to the size of a galaxy is a vision--from a Bill trying to trick Ford into allying with him.

Disagree with this one. We already accept it as being something he can actually do. And it definitely aligns with the supporting evidence.

Infinite Perception Speed seems incredibly fake to me, because (a) we see Bill being taken by surprise at least a few times in the series and (b) this assumes that he was seeing every single side of the kaleidoscope and that he was experiencing everything all at once. I can imagine why this wouldn't be the case...so it's a no from me.

Agree. The reasoning is something that isn't accepted on the wiki anyway.

Infinite Stamina for the Mindscape should be changed to Unknown since it has incredibly flimsy reasoning. It applying to RW Bill is, as stated at the beginning of this post, wrong.

I think infinite is fine. Bill isn't a living organism. He's just a dude made pure metaphysical energy. Who doesn't know what pain is. I highly doubt he knows what fatigue is either.




Will respond to the AP part later because my phone makes it hard to reply to bullet points.

 

[DaReaperMan]

So, here's my two cents

I don't give 2 effs about the PnA, that's whatever

As for the actual stats I think Tier 7 is fine for his base physicals, and can go up to 3-C physically with abilities... and then we get to the weird crap.

Low 1-C is a no from me, not even close

However, how I would personally handle Bill's powers is "At least Low 2-C, likely/possibly 2-A"

Low 2-C is for the basic crap, if he couldn't destroy a timeline how in the good hades is he going to be a threat to the multiverse, and a dire one at that

2-A is for the reasons stated on the profile, it works, but not in my opinion as a solid tier.

But I have one big, huge, massive, catastrophic problem with the profile.

Outside of PnA and one in range, the entire profile LACKS references.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

A Low 2-C can't really be a threat to a 2-A multiverse, let alone a dire one, as far as I'm aware

 

[CinnabarManx421]

Also as far as I’m aware Bill’s goal isn’t even destroying the multiverse or anything, just partying as much as he can. And the pandemonium he causes makes for a lot of destruction, which is why he would be a “threat” to the multiverse without being able to just destroy it all at once.

 

[Ayewale]

This is where I start disagreeing. The first feat is very clearly telepathy. Ford got a metal plate around his head just so Bill couldn't read his mind.

But Ford is someone whose mind is one Bill already has explicit access to thanks to their deal all those years ago, there's no reason evidence that it'd apply to other people.

If we really wanna go with Infinite Stamina sure, but I feel like it should cap at Superhuman for his real self.

 

[Phoenks]

But Ford is someone whose mind is one Bill already has explicit access to thanks to their deal all those years ago, there's no reason evidence that it'd apply to other people.

If we really wanna go with Infinite Stamina sure, but I feel like it should cap at Superhuman for his real self.

What? No? If that was the case Bill would have instantly won Weirdmaggedon.

Ford also clearly infers that Bill could into everyone's mind, including Dipper.

 

[Ayewale]

What? No? If that was the case Bill would have instantly won Weirdmaggedon.

Ford also clearly infers that Bill could into everyone's mind, including Dipper.

I'm extremely confident that the latter sentence is referring to Bill's ability to enter dreams, because if he could read minds without using dreams he would've done exactly that to Stanley, but didn't. Bill being able to read minds freely kind of just, invalidates the plot of that episode. Additionally, Dipper has also made a deal with Bill in the past, which might be why he needs the encrypter too.

Also not sure about what the first sentence means.

 

[Phoenks]

I'm extremely confident that the latter sentence is referring to Bill's ability to enter dreams, because if he could read minds without using dreams he would've done exactly that to Stanley, but didn't. Bill being able to read minds freely kind of just, invalidates the plot of that episode. Additionally, Dipper has also made a deal with Bill in the past, which might be why he needs the encrypter too.

Also not sure about what the first sentence means.

Why would he have done that to Stanley? Bill was hyper focused on Ford and doesn't think anything of Stan. And it's not like the ability was passive.

The whole point is that Bill made the mistake of focusing too much on Ford and thus didn't see any of the more particular details. Ffs he didn't even notice that Stanley was pretending to be Ford even though the fingers or facial hair/chin (and his senses) would have clearly given it away. He just wasn't paying any attention.

If making a deal meant that Bill could always see their minds, then why would making another deal with Ford change that? It doesn't make sense to me. Unless he would have removed Ford's metal plate?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Unless he would have removed Ford's metal plate?

Nah, Stan even took Ford's place because the Memory Gun couldn't be used on Ford when Bill is in his mind

 

[Ayewale]

Why would he have done that to Stanley?

So that he could get the deal with Gideon? Gideon literally asks Bill to 'go inside Stanford's mind'. At this point you'd be arguing that Bill was going out of his way to use his dreams since that's not what Gideon asked for. Additionally, if Bill could just use his mind manip to read Stan's mind anyways, why didn't he tell that to Gideon and get the memory of Stan's code anyways?? Gideon calls off the deal specifically because Bill failed and Bill apparently just didn't try to get the memory back after the fact?

He just wasn't paying any attention.

Bill having mind reading without using dreams can't be explained with 'not paying attention' though, at that point we'd be arguing he goes out of his way to make his plans worse.

If making a deal meant that Bill could always see their minds, then why would making another deal with Ford change that? It doesn't make sense to me. Unless he would have removed Ford's metal plate?

I was suggesting that the deal meant that Bill had a lingering effect on Ford's mind--which is true, because even after Ford formally called the deal off, he was still incredibly afraid of Bill entering his mind--which is why he created the project in the first place (if I got the timeline correct and according to the wiki, he created it directly after calling off the deal with Bill). Ford also doesn't suffer from Bill invading his nightmares after the fact (despite it being canon that Bill punishes those who don't comply with him by doing exactly that). It seems really likely to me that Bill's Mind Reading is limited to the dreamscape, especially since Ford only attempts to protect Dipper's mind (who he is telling sensitive information too and was formerly possessed).