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Welcome to Pagemageddon! Bill Cipher Rework.

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Phoenks said:
I'll move on too, then.

NEXT!

Striking strength and durability scaling. I disagree with 2-A scaling to those.

Just, no. Bill never demonstrates striking strength comparable to the scope of his weirdness powers. And it would make all of his lower showings very strange because that level of SS would mean his durability would scale too.

His durability has so many anti-feats that it's impossible to give him that. Shack took out his eye and floored him. Mabel damaged his eye by just spraying pepper spray. He felt the need to create a forcefield to prevent Dipper from hitting his eye. Etc, the list goes on.

Completely uncertain about his base striking strength and durability. It for sure ranges up to 3-C though if he could become the size of a galaxy (The Stan image is definitely above 4-A. Humans are way more dense than galaxies).
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Me personally, he can amp his durability and striking strength, but baseline it isn't so I think varies from low 7C to 3C likely 2A is fine imo, especially since a lot of those anti feats are his eye, which is a weak spot.
 
I agree with the rewrite (Even the Low 1-C stuff, although I am not certain that it will get the cut here on VSBW).

I hope this goes through, because I think Bill's current page is a mess right now. Although realistically, knowing this site, someone will probably come along with some mental gymnastics to prevent the upgrade to 2-A (Seriously, any other character would be straight up 2-A if they had Bill's reasoning).
 
Gewsbumpz_dude said:
I agree with the rewrite (Even the Low 1-C stuff, although I am not certain that it will get the cut here on VSBW).

I hope this goes through, because I think Bill's current page is a mess right now. Although realistically, knowing this site, someone will probably come along with some mental gymnastics to prevent the upgrade to 2-A (Seriously, any other character would be straight up 2-A if they had Bill's reasoning).
Click to expand...
Everyone here has already accepted 2-A... xd.
 
So far this is how I'm seeing the tiers:

Varies from Low 7-C up to 3-C likely 2-A
or
Varies from Low 7-C up to 2-A

Would this be the best for the tiers?
 
StrymULTRA said:
I don't see how his durability shouldn't scale to his AP, as is basically an Arceus thing here, where he has some inconsistencies which can be explained from just him playing with his food too much (given that he only was serious against the TB, but he ***** around all the time with the Pines), both Ford and himself essentially imply that the destruction of existence wouldn't affect him much. Bill also described as having infinite power, so I don't see why would he downplay himself from saying his durability is infinities below his AP.
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I doubt he was playing. He considered the people in the Shacktron to be threats to his power. Shown when he discovered them trying to do the Zodiac thing.

Also, he was genuinely trying to destroy the shacktron and get Dipper and Mable so he could get answers from Ford.

Infinite power =/= infinite durability.


StrymULTRA said:
I dunno man, the same Shaktron needed max power output to overpower all the Hencemaniacs at once, and they're afraid of a serious Bill. So saying that Bill is on the same tier as his minions who are all scared of him to the point of not daring to question him or running away the second he gets mad is just... dishonest.
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The Shacktron stomped them though...
 
Phoenks said:
I doubt he was playing. He considered the people in the Shacktron to be threats to his power. Shown when he discovered them trying to do the Zodiac thing.

Infinite power =/= infinite durability.
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You've completely ignored the parts where he wouldn't be bothered from the multiverse destruction. Did Ford suddenly become unreliable now?

Plus I think is just a PIS thing, given that if they were completely overpowered the show just couldn't go on. From both Bill and Ford's words, narrative suggests that his physicals are that high.
 
StrymULTRA said:
You've completely ignored the parts where he wouldn't be bothered from the multiverse destruction. Did Ford suddenly become unreliable now?

Plus I think is just a PIS thing, given that if they were completely overpowered the show just couldn't go on. From both Bill and Ford's words, narrative suggests that his physicals are that high.
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Also, he isn't trying to kill everyone, he's trying to leave the kids to bargain with Ford.
 
StrymULTRA said:
You've completely ignored the parts where he wouldn't be bothered from the multiverse destruction.
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I mean, I don't think surviving the multiverse being destroyed as a result of your power means you are 2-A in durability tbh.

He also has regen, and can exist as a metaphysical form. So there could be other way he would survive outside of durability, even if so.
 
Phoenks said:
I mean, I don't think surviving the multiverse being destroyed as a result of your power means you are 2-A in durability tbh.

He also has regen, and can exist as a metaphysical form. So there could be other way he would survive outside of durability, even if so.
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This is what I call an assumption.

The only things that damaged his BODY (not eye) was the EE gun from Ford, and nothing else.
Adem_Warlock69 said:
That doesn't really counter him getting hurt by the Shack tho
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That is either an inconsistency or just him not being serious tbh. It's not like characters in fiction don't lower their durability when holding back.
 
Bill only had visible damage against the Quantum Destabilizatior and nothing else
 
This is mostly being experimental as I legit have 0 idea on how to do these things.



1st image:
  • Galaxy's diameter = 1706.075 px = 9.5e17 km
  • Ford's chin to forehead = 259 px = 1.4421992e17 km
2nd image:
  • Ford's chin to forehead = 454.58 px = 1.4421992e17 km
  • Ford's full height = 1588 px = 6.55594912e19 km = 6.55594912e22 m
So, let's find the weight using the measurements of large size calcs:

(6.55594912e22/1.71)^3*62 = 3.49389687e69 kg (Aka Universal LS lol)

Ford's volume = 3.49389687e69 / 985 = 3.54710342e66 m^3

According to the Large Size page this should give me 3-B but I dunno the formula to use to get that result so... help.
 
Who among the staff participated in the previous tiering of Bill? I would like to know if anything was said related to what the OP is proposing. This doesn't seem like new information.
 
Firestorm808 said:
Who among the staff participated in the previous tiering of Bill? I would like to know if anything was said related to what the OP is proposing. This doesn't seem like new information.
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No I think the way of scaling is new, before it was just that "threatens the multiverse" which is why bill was 2A. But this brings up the portal being 2-A, shaking an infinite 4D realm and bill sustaining the portal and ford not finding a strong enough energy source to kill bill
 
Just gonna pop in to say I disagree with the “infinite perception speed” thing. The canonicity of the AMA is questionable at best, and Bill even admits that he “overstuffs his resume” so basically anything he claims should be taken with a grain of salt, and there is basically nothing supporting this in the main show. If he can really see an “infinite kaleidoscope of possibilities” there’s no reason he shouldn’t have seen everything he struggled with coming.
 
CinnabarManx421 said:
Just gonna pop in to say I disagree with the “infinite perception speed” thing. The canonicity of the AMA is questionable at best, and Bill even admits that he “overstuffs his resume” so basically anything he claims should be taken with a grain of salt, and there is basically nothing supporting this in the main show. If he can really see an “infinite kaleidoscope of possibilities” there’s no reason he shouldn’t have seen everything he struggled with coming.
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I think thats when he refers to his power being all mighty and ext, (essentially when he uses hyperbole) but there isn't anything to say that the infinite kaleidoscope of possibilities is hyperbolic, also tbf the whole he should have seen that coming would also apply to his precog in general, so it seems to be more of a PIS moment.
 
CinnabarManx421 said:
Just gonna pop in to say I disagree with the “infinite perception speed” thing. The canonicity of the AMA is questionable at best, and Bill even admits that he “overstuffs his resume” so basically anything he claims should be taken with a grain of salt, and there is basically nothing supporting this in the main show. If he can really see an “infinite kaleidoscope of possibilities” there’s no reason he shouldn’t have seen everything he struggled with coming.
Click to expand...
Well he does say it has "fluctuating range", as in how far he can see into the future and whatnot changes. So that explains instances where he is caught off-guard by characters in the show.

Edit: Although I do agree that it is odd to give him a speed rating for what is basically Precognition, unless we are doing this regularly now.
 
Just because he overstuffed in that Dipper episode, it doesn't mean that every statement of him is such, that is genetic fallacy. And the precognition thing can be easily explained by; 1) He doesn't uses it in-character, 2) It is not passive, which would make sense considering how he showed multiple images within his body in his first appearence talking with Gideon.
 
I think one could probably make an argument of scaling Bill to everything via Ford's Portal being able to shake the Nightmare Realm, which would encompass the entire Gravity Falls Cosmology (infinite multiverse + In-Between Space + Nightmare Realm encompassing it could probably make it a 6D cosmology). Considering Ford didn't deem anything he could create capable of harming Bill DESPITE making something capable of doing that, until he found a literal super anti-paradox substance, you could probably argue it for durability / AP scaling for sure.
 
Also isn't there a statement out there of Time Baby being able to consume time or whatever? Could probably argue that as backing for Bill's speed.

If you think Bill was going to conquer the Multiverse one universe at a time rather than "destroy" them or whatever, that would also service for infinite speed as it would be similar to other traverse infinite multiverse feats like the Pony of Shadows feat.
 
Kirbonic_Pikmin said:
Also isn't there a statement out there of Time Baby being able to consume time or whatever? Could probably argue that as backing for Bill's speed.

If you think Bill was going to conquer the Multiverse one universe at a time rather than "destroy" them or whatever, that would also service for infinite speed as it would be similar to other traverse infinite multiverse feats like the Pony of Shadows feat.
Click to expand...
Phoenks already addressed this, saying that Bill would either have to be given infinite speed or multi+
 
@Everything12 @Eficiente

I believe this case is similar to the prior Kirby "Another Dimension" thread.

Bill is the king of the Nightmare Realm and controls all of it. The Nightmare Realm is the space between universes.

I am currently thinking this is just Tier 2, not Tier 1.
 
The argument for it being tier 1 would be that the nightmare realm itself is higher dimensional, as its referred to as a higher plane, encompasses an entire infinite multiverse, and a realm outside of it which views said multiverse & its time as strips of tape, so I think it being tier 1 is reasonable.
 
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