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Welcome to Pagemageddon! Bill Cipher Rework.

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I think I should make my agreement more specific,

Physically 6B up to 3C a/p is fine, 2A possibly Low 1C with powers is where I would see bill's a/p fully. then omegahyperdimensionaliouter11deeznutsversal+ for true form

Possibly/likely infinite perception speed is fine
 
Adem_Warlock69 said:
Bill was like super peeved before fighting da Shack and even tried to one-shot em before he realized it had the bubble, so ehhh
Bill never throws hands in his normal size or ever or gets hit, so I think Unknown works best as his baseline
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Tbh it would be an anti feat even for goddamn Tier 7 given the Shackthrow is like... 8-B at most eyeballing?

Honestly I think you're overthinking this because it contradicts the statements and you end up in a similar boat as the Arceus thing, as the narrative clearly takes precedence on Bill being someone on the tier of his minions.
Lord_Farquaad69420 said:
Physically 6B up to 3C a/p is fine, 2A possibly Low 1C with powers is where I would see bill's a/p fully
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In case I wasn't clear, I put the 2-A/Low 1-C as a likely right to cover the issue pf physicality, as it's indeed vague, but can help at settling down the debate, given that we'd end up discussing about it infinitely otherwise.
 
I honestly think that Bill is one of the most downplayed characters in this wiki, so I am happy to see a good 2-A/Low 1-C proposal, although I doubt it will pass.
Anyway, the "possibly Low 1-C" argument seems convincing since, from previous CRT I have seen, the space between 4-D universe is already assumed to be 5-D, but often doesn't get listed simply because it's not big enough. However, in this case I feel like the Nightmare Realm should be able to qualify since it contains infinite 4-D structure, which if I remember correctly are viewed as little bubble inside of it. So put me down as an agreement for now.
 
What are your guys opinion on Intelligence? Should Bill and Ford be Supergenius for understanding 5D calculus?
 
StrymULTRA said:
Tbh it would be an anti feat even for goddamn Tier 7 given the Shackthrow is like... 8-B at most eyeballing?

Honestly I think you're overthinking this because it contradicts the statements and you end up in a similar boat as the Arceus thing, as the narrative clearly takes precedence on Bill being someone on the tier of his minions.
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Also I think bill's state of mind wasn't all there, he could have just been in shock
 
Addressing the higher AP arguments here.

Multiversal+ likely Low Complex Multiverse (Shown that Ford with his powers could use them to grow larger than a galaxy, he is stated twice to threaten the wider multiverse and its also stated that the rip in reality would destroy the fabric of existence.[2] Weirdmaggedon had already affected the multiverse slightly by having rift in other dimensions[10] further supporting the fact that Weirdmaggedon was a multiversal threat. Bill is the king of the Nightmare Realm and controls all of it, the nightmare realm is the space between universes making it infinite in size for encompassing the space between infinite universes it also contains Penrose triangles and Penrose stairs which are four dimensional, You can view all of human history in it and its stated to be a higher realm this all is supported by Ford needing the five dimensional calculus to help make the portal. Nightmare realm was shaken as soon as the portal reopened, Bill's death caused the rip to close implying he was the one keeping it open and was likely going to increase the size, Ford at that point couldn't find an energy source powerful enough to kill Bill despite the fact he created something capable of containing the rift)
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I agree with everything here for 2-A scaling. Threatening an infinite multiverse would mean he has to be 2-A. The only argument you could make otherwise is that Bill has infinite speed and travels from universe to universe 1 by 1, which is far more of an assumption and requires you to say Bill is Infinite in speed which he has 0 feats of. Weirdmaggedon putting rifts in other universes also proves his powers have a widescale effect even with him being unable to go outside of Gravity Falls. Four dimension arguments work in its favor as well.

Low 1-C isn't going to fly with me.

While the space between 4-D space-times is usually considered to be 5-D, it is almost always unquantifiable on this wiki, even in 2-A structures. Otherwise, all 2-A structures would be rated at Low 1-C since more often then not characters affect this "space" as well.

It doesn't help that Ford says that the dimension isn't really a dimension at all in the conventional sense. And it doesn't seem to be 'space' in a way that is quantifiable on the wiki either.

Five dimensional calculus doesn't mean much on its own unless we are given the context as to what the 5th dimension is. The wiki has extremely strict standards regarding dimensions, so this shouldn't be exempt from having to prove they are relevant. It's also uncertain how this would even apply to the NR.

Overall, it's just much more concrete to give this a 2-A rating.
 
Phoenks said:
While the space between 4-D space-times is usually considered to be 5-D, it is almost always unquantifiable on this wiki, even in 2-A structures. Otherwise, all 2-A structures would be rated at Low 1-C since more often then not characters affect this "space" as well.
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The problem with all of this is that you're being very nitpicky, as we have enough evidence collectively to declare this as being Low 1-C, given it's not just a "void" like is usually assumed, but a whole physical reality encompassing all of this.
Phoenks said:
It doesn't help that Ford says that the dimension isn't really a dimension at all in the conventional sense. And it doesn't seem to be 'space' in a way that is quantifiable on the wiki either.
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Of course it can't be called a normal dimension, given in context he made a whole travelling through the multiverse, and he called all of those universes separate dimensions, so why would he call the NR a dimension too? So the argument just supports Low 1-C if anything.
Phoenks said:
Five dimensional calculus doesn't mean much on its own unless we are given the context as to what the 5th dimension is. The wiki has extremely strict standards regarding dimensions, so this shouldn't be exempt from having to prove they are relevant. It's also uncertain how this would even apply to the NR.
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Indivisually? Nah. But if put together with all of this + the context mentioned before, an argument for possibly indeed exists.
 
Phoenks said:
Addressing the higher AP arguments here.



I agree with everything here for 2-A scaling. Threatening an infinite multiverse would mean he has to be 2-A. The only argument you could make otherwise is that Bill has infinite speed and travels from universe to universe 1 by 1, which is far more of an assumption and requires you to say Bill is Infinite in speed which he has 0 feats of. Weirdmaggedon putting rifts in other universes also proves his powers have a widescale effect even with him being unable to go outside of Gravity Falls. Four dimension arguments work in its favor as well.

Low 1-C isn't going to fly with me.

While the space between 4-D space-times is usually considered to be 5-D, it is almost always unquantifiable on this wiki, even in 2-A structures. Otherwise, all 2-A structures would be rated at Low 1-C since more often then not characters affect this "space" as well.

It doesn't help that Ford says that the dimension isn't really a dimension at all in the conventional sense. And it doesn't seem to be 'space' in a way that is quantifiable on the wiki either.

Five dimensional calculus doesn't mean much on its own unless we are given the context as to what the 5th dimension is. The wiki has extremely strict standards regarding dimensions, so this shouldn't be exempt from having to prove they are relevant. It's also uncertain how this would even apply to the NR.

Overall, it's just much more concrete to give this a 2-A rating.
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Why did you ignore the r>f?
It sees human history as a movie clip

Both Bill and Ford state its a dimension in the show.
 
StrymULTRA said:
The problem with all of this is that you're being very nitpicky, as we have enough evidence collectively to declare this as being Low 1-C, given it's not just a "void" like is usually assumed, but a whole physical reality encompassing all of this.

Of course it can't be called a normal dimension, given in context he made a whole travelling through the multiverse, and he called all of those universes separate dimensions, so why would he call the NR a dimension too? So the argument just supports Low 1-C if anything.

Indivisually? Nah. But if put together with all of this + the context mentioned before, an argument for possibly indeed exists.
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Also don't forget that the nightmare realm contains penrose triange and stairs which from what I've heard is 4D
 
Lord_Farquaad69420 said:
Also don't forget that the nightmare realm contains penrose triange and stairs which from what I've heard is 4D
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Also that. I think that disgreading Low 1-C completely is just too nitpicky for my taste, VBW is already known to be extremely nitpicky and overly strict on basically almost anything even when it does not make sense just for the sake of a "safe end", so let's not fall it here too, please.
 
StrymULTRA said:
The problem with all of this is that you're being very nitpicky, as we have enough evidence collectively to declare this as being Low 1-C, given it's not just a "void" like is usually assumed, but a whole physical reality encompassing all of this.
Click to expand...
I'm not being nitpicky, I'm bringing up the wiki consensus for this stuff.

The most evidence you have is a vague 5th dimensional calculus statement that has no proof of any type of quantitive superiority or even a reference to what exactly it means or if it is even an actual dimension in mathematics.

It is weakened by the fact that "dimensions" (universes) in Gravity Falls are also referred to by numbers (Including the nightmare realm). "fifth dimensional calculus" could be calculus from the fifth dimension in the multiverse. Ford is a multiversal traveler so this would make complete sense. It also requires less assumptions than Low 1-C.

StrymULTRA said:
Indivisually? Nah. But if put together with all of this + the context mentioned before, an argument for possibly indeed exists.
Click to expand...
So you are agreeing that your only supporting evidence for 5-D is not enough on its own. What other context and evidence is there?


ShionAH said:
Why did you ignore the r>f?
It sees human history as a movie clip
Click to expand...
There is no R>F above 4-Dness there. You would only need to have 4-D powers to view something like human history as a clip. Also, this is just horribly misrepresented. They are viewing history via a power, not because of quantitive superiority over the timeline.
 
Phoenks said:
It is weakened by the fact that "dimensions" (universes) in Gravity Falls are also referred to by numbers (Including the nightmare realm). "fifth dimensional calculus" could be calculus from the fifth dimension in the multiverse. Ford is a multiversal traveler so this would make complete sense. It also requires less assumptions than Low 1-C.
Click to expand...
Alright, I'm not gonna even reply to the rest because if your main argument is this, then let me just say... no.

Now what terminology even says that that 5th dimensional means from the 5th universe? Because by your logic it means that the 2D world was just the 2nd universe too. This is what I mean by nitpicky, because you're making absurd mental gymnastics over something real simple and straightforward.

It has enough stuff, and most of your counters are mostly argument from incredulity (and maybe authority too).
 
Phoenks said:
I'm not being nitpicky, I'm bringing up the wiki consensus for this stuff.

The most evidence you have is a vague 5th dimensional calculus statement that has no proof of any type of quantitive superiority or even a reference to what exactly it means or if it is even an actual dimension in mathematics.

It is weakened by the fact that "dimensions" (universes) in Gravity Falls are also referred to by numbers (Including the nightmare realm). "fifth dimensional calculus" could be calculus from the fifth dimension in the multiverse. Ford is a multiversal traveler so this would make complete sense. It also requires less assumptions than Low 1-C.


So you are agreeing that your only supporting evidence for 5-D is not enough on its own. What other context and evidence is there?



There is no R>F above 4-Dness there. You would only need to have 4-D powers to view something like human history as a clip. Also, this is just horribly misrepresented. They are viewing history via a power, not because of quantitive superiority over the timeline.
Click to expand...
Why do you disagree with even the possibility? Bruhh

I will update the votes soon
 
StrymULTRA said:
Maybe later, can unironically help at bumping his speed.

Plus I should also calc Stanford's AP from his size, 4-A is nonsense.
Click to expand...
There have been calcs of his heads GBE getting to uni (and due to how volume of a sphere works, it should be fine) and him spinning around getting to mftl+
 
ShionAH said:
Why do you disagree with even the possibility? Bruhh
Click to expand...
Because giving this a possibly would make every 2-A cosmology possibly Low 1-C, which has been denied tens of times in the past before. This has no additional evidence required to support that the space between universes is a quantifiable and 5-Dimensional space in my opinion.

There's also the fact that Bill needed to go to GF to finally create his physical form, and then described it as being a multi-dimensional makeover. If the NR really was a quantifiably 5D space, then this wouldn't make much sense.

He also infers that his abilities to manipulate space and matter were new things that he didn't have until he gained his physical form. Which makes the arguments here even less convincing.
 
Phoenks said:
There's also the fact that Bill needed to go to GF to finally create his physical form, and then described it as being a multi-dimensional makeover. If the NR really was a quantifiably 5D space, then this wouldn't make much sense.
Click to expand...
Bills physical or mental body does not have HDE.
 
Phoenks said:
There's also the fact that Bill needed to go to GF to finally create his physical form, and then described it as being a multi-dimensional makeover. If the NR really was a quantifiably 5D space, then this wouldn't make much sense.
Click to expand...
It's a realm without physics, Ford outright said iirc that because of this he could attack bill directly before realising the portal opened and he needed to run to shut it off, also it should be a 3D realm so like shouldn't bill have gotten the makeover from being there anyways?
 
Bill did never originate from the NR, by the way. He only came there after destroying his 2D world, but he still was 2D there. I don't see why it affects the NR tiering at all.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Bill did never originate from the NR, by the way. He only came there after destroying his 2D world, but he still was 2D there. I don't see why it affects the NR tiering at all.
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I think your misunderstanding pheonks point, I think the point they were trying to say was "if it was 5D why did he need to access GF to gain a multi dimensional makeover"
 
Lord_Farquaad69420 said:
I think your misunderstanding pheonks point, I think the point they were trying to say was "if it was 5D why did he need to access GF to gain a multi dimensional makeover"
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I guess it's due to the nature of the rift. He wasn't 3D before it if the argument was just him going to a higher d place, then yeah, no.
 
ShionAH said:
Bills physical or mental body does not have HDE.
Click to expand...
You're missing the point. If Bill has Low 1-C capabilities in the NR then he should've been able to form a body there too. Unless there was no space/matter there at all. In which case, it is again not quantifiable for 5-D purposes and would just be some metaphysical 4-D-sized space...

And again, Bill seems to think of space, matter, and time, as being new things he didn't always have control over until he got his physical form in Gravity Falls. So I think it's doubtful there was any quantifiable space or matter in the NR. Especially since it seems completely incorporeal given the context.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Alright, I'm not gonna even reply to the rest because if your main argument is this, then let me just say... no.

Now what terminology even says that that 5th dimensional means from the 5th universe? Because by your logic it means that the 2D world was just the 2nd universe too. This is what I mean by nitpicky, because you're making absurd mental gymnastics over something real simple and straightforward.

It has enough stuff, and most of your counters are mostly argument from incredulity (and maybe authority too).
Click to expand...
So you went for the low-hanging fruit instead of targeting my actual main argument, which is that you lack any other evidence to say this is proof of Low 1-C / 5-D on Vs Battles Wiki. There's nothing that separates the argument you are making from the tens of "space between multiverse is 5-D" arguments that have been rejected time and time again on this wiki.

Anyway, you still are just dodging and ducking away from addressing my counters. I brought up that argument to point out how vague the statement is. It could be represented in many different ways.

"by my logic" no because Bill Cipher extremely blatantly points out that it is in fact the actual 2nd dimension he is referring to there. By saying it is a flat world and showing a diagram.

Ford on the other hand refers to universes as dimensions, and did not give any further context to support the fifth-dimension there being a mathematical one. Nightmare realm is also referred to as the 46th dimension in the multiverse.

It's on you to prove Ford meant it was a mathematical dimension, and then also that it should qualify for quantitive superiority.
 
Phoenks said:
"by my logic" no because Bill Cipher extremely blatantly points out that it is in fact the actual 2nd dimension he is referring to there. By saying it is a flat world and showing a diagram.
Click to expand...
I mean the one Ford came in lmao. He literally went in a 2D universe which is another thing than Bill's. Did you even check the imgur album I've sent?
 
StrymULTRA said:
I mean the one Ford came in lmao. He literally went in a 2D universe which is another thing than Bill's. Did you even check the imgur album I've sent?
Click to expand...
Are you just going to keep going for low-hanging fruits? That is completely different context than when he refers to the fifth-dimension in the calculus statement... And with Bill's additional words, it still doesn't change what I'm saying.


Stop beating around the bush and prove to me that the random 5th dimensional calculus statement supports quantitive superiority.

And if you can't prove that, show me the other evidence you have for the space being 5-D. Tell me why it's different than all the arguments that have been made and rejected for "5-D space between universes"
 
You keep yelling it doesn't, but can you prove the negative when literally everything else says it? You're straight up ignoring anything and nitpicking every scan, which is something that I heavily dislike and I'll ask you to stop.
 
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