We need to stop taking the word "concept" at face value (Satoru Gojo CM removal)

[BestMGQScalerEver]

So this has been bugging me for a VERY long time due to how it's just not conceptual manipulation...

So we have this justification for his CM right?

Gojo can create an infinite space in which he controls the concepts of "near" and "far"

However it's not talking about any metaphysical concepts but rather ones described in idealism or nominalism. Take this excerpt from the CM page.

Concepts that are not abstract, such as those outlined in Idealism and Nominalism, do not qualify for conceptual manipulation of any kind. Such concepts exist strictly as non-abstract objects and hold no power over anything whatsoever. For a character to qualify for conceptual manipulation, the character must be able to manipulate abstract concepts that exist partially or completely independently of the mind.

So it's all reliant on this scan which the scan itself debunks the notion of conceptual manipulation.


Because well when using the word concept it's talking about the opponents perception or idea of near and far elaborated with quotes such as this

So it seems that Gojo is able to tweak the concept of "near and "far". He can tweak the feeling of the enemy who thought "near!". For example, if they are separated 1000 meters away, he can make them think "he's near". In reverse, he can also control the phase to make the opponent think 1 m as "that's far!".

Right after concept is said it's then elaborated that it's talking about the opponents own feeling/perception of what near and far is. He is not manipulating any metaphysical concepts but rather the peoples own concept of what near and far is AKA a purely mental idea of near and far by manipulating space/distance.

So Conceptual Manipulation should go.

 

[Eclipso]

Agree FRA

 

[Arkenis]

I did want this to be perception manip instead. fits a lot better and maps on to what's implied more than concept.

 

[Phoenks]

W rizz.

Yeah, 100% agreed. I can't believe that Conceptual Manipulation, let alone "Type 2" was ever genuinely accepted by staff members for this ability. It's at best Type 3 and even then it's shaky.

For those who want context, the Conceptual Manipulation was accepted on this thread but was never officially added to Gojo's page.

I am @ing people right away because JJK threads are notorious for never reaching a conclusion. Seriously, the verse has been outdated for years because of that.

@Bobsican @Deceived3596 @Deagonx @ImmortalDread @LephyrTheRevanchist

I'm uncertain if you guys are knowledgeable on JJK but I think that your views of Conceptual Manipulation should be good enough to evaluate this.

Correct me if I'm wrong though!

 

[Bobsican]

Agree with the OP

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

W rizz.

Yeah, 100% agreed. I can't believe that Conceptual Manipulation, let alone "Type 2" was ever genuinely accepted by staff members for this ability. It's at best Type 3 and even then it's shaky.

For those who want context, the Conceptual Manipulation was accepted on this thread but was never officially added to Gojo's page.

I am @ing people right away because JJK threads are notorious for never reaching a conclusion. Seriously, the verse has been outdated for years because of that.

@Bobsican @Deceived3596 @Deagonx @ImmortalDread @LephyrTheRevanchist

I'm uncertain if you guys are knowledgeable on JJK but I think that your views of Conceptual Manipulation should be good enough to evaluate this.

Correct me if I'm wrong though!

I don't think you really need that much context on JJK to understand this thread aside from maybe simple base knowledge on how Gojos ability works. JJK does have debatably legit usages of concept but this situation is completely isolated from those and is talking about mental ideas which isn't even type 3.

 

[Arkenis]

W rizz.

Yeah, 100% agreed. I can't believe that Conceptual Manipulation, let alone "Type 2" was ever genuinely accepted by staff members for this ability. It's at best Type 3 and even then it's shaky.

For those who want context, the Conceptual Manipulation was accepted on this thread but was never officially added to Gojo's page.

I am @ing people right away because JJK threads are notorious for never reaching a conclusion. Seriously, the verse has been outdated for years because of that.

@Bobsican @Deceived3596 @Deagonx @ImmortalDread @LephyrTheRevanchist

I'm uncertain if you guys are knowledgeable on JJK but I think that your views of Conceptual Manipulation should be good enough to evaluate this.

Correct me if I'm wrong though!

Could u maybe get some people to help move along these CRTs?

Yuki, Uro, Sukuna's page update - this one is basically done
Cursed Energy Page update - also just need someone to look it over
JJK Domain CRT - this has some contention so definitely needs mods to look it over

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

I'm not a JJK expert, but the scan the OP covered doesn't seem like it's anything conceptual. This seems along similar lines of when an immortal character says time is irrelevant to them. We don't take that as time literally not applying to them or anything so extreme; it just means they don't perceive it as mattering because they don't age. This seems to be a similar case where he'd be messing with his opponents' perception of distance, making ideas like "near" and "far" irrelevant. If there's more evidence to suggest he actually affects the concepts directly, that'd be appreciated. Otherwise, that scan alone doesn't suffice for CM Type 2.

 

[Bobsican]

I don't think it even qualifies for type 3 TBH.

 

[MusicRelaxing]

Damn. JJK supporters down TERRIBLE. First, their verse gets downgraded to SUBSONIC+ and the SOLE REPRESENTATIVE OF THEIR VERSE is getting more shit removed AND ******* DIED TOO We hate to see it.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Agree from a cursory glance. Will wait for the verse supporters to comment.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Yes, I agree with this. Can't believe it actually got through and accepted in the first place

 

[PhantomØ4]

Rare Adam Herman double U but just wait for the guy with the persona 5 avatar to come in and utterly destroy you like the Mc destroys monster girls in your favourite game.

Anyways, I agree regardless.

 

[PhantomØ4]

Yes, I agree with this. Can't believe it actually got through and accepted in the first place

So true Bluey you’re so smart. Reinhard truly soloed all along.

 

[Deceived3596]

I'll go through this thread later when I have free time and when I'm not beyond tired.

 

[chosen]

I agree fra

 

[Dr._whiteee]

However it's not talking about any metaphysical concepts but rather ones described in idealism or nominalism. Take this excerpt from the CM page.

A.) That isn't all the evidence. Did you miss the part where Gojo states Infinity exists as a concept independent of himself and that he manifests said concept into reality? That's quite literally our Concept type 2.
B.) Yes he is. Do you understand how Gojo's ability works? Using the exact scans you are referencing, there is no way you are coming to this conclusion, but we will explore this.

I'm gonna need you to substantiate your claim that this is in reference to idealism or nominalism because that's just blatantly untrue by our standards.

So it's all reliant on this scan which the scan itself debunks the notion of conceptual manipulation.


Because well when using the word concept it's talking about the opponents perception or idea of near and far elaborated with quotes such as this

It does not. In fact, if you didn't just skim through scans you would have seen that it's stated Gojo controls "the scale of distance" in reference to him "controlling the concept of near and far". In the same scan you are claiming "debunks the notion" we are given the example of placing items on a ruler. What Gojo is doing is taking the ruler itself (space-time in this instance) and changing it's scale so that if you were resting on a regular ruler's inch line, after Gojo's manipulation, the inch mark would be one foot long. This dilation in space is possible because of Gojo's conceptual control over the scale of the concept of space in his infinity space.

Here is the actual scan. The whole first paragraph preceding the comment about how Gojo is tweaking the concept of near and far discuss how he does so through phase strength. Phase strength is a purely mathematical construct used to determine how elements of a mathematical set will interact as the head toward infinity. Gojo's ability is literally changing the sets ability to either converge (come together) or diverge (split apart), meaning Gojo is clearly tweaking with the abstract elements of space and not just the physical elements of space time.

Right after concept is said it's then elaborated that it's talking about the opponents own feeling/perception of what near and far is. He is not manipulating any metaphysical concepts but rather the peoples own concept of what near and far is AKA a purely mental idea of near and far by manipulating space/distance.

This is also factually incorrect. Gojo's infinity space is it's own infinite space that works via a special topography that uses completely different mathematical metrics to measure for it's topology, which is elaborated on in the same evidence shown in that thread.

It's blatantly obvious that Gojo's limitless can not function in regular space. More over, Gojo's control over limitless, red, blue, convergence, and divergence, is purely a mathematical construct. Convergence and divergent series discuss abstract elements of sets meeting in infinite series. That is the same concept that Gojo is tweaking to control the scale of distance and to power his natural infinity. These are purely mathematical constructs.

We also know this to be the case given what gojo states regarding his abilities in the HI arc

Gojo's ability can make abstract qualities such as negative 1 a reality and also manifest physical aspects such as the case of negative 1 apples actually existing.

So Conceptual Manipulation should go.

It shouldn't. I'm also guessing you are trying to claim this because of Sukuna's slash, which is hilarious because Sukunas slash needing to be conceptual in order to even reach gojo is actually further supporting proof for concept manip for limitless.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

W rizz.

Yeah, 100% agreed. I can't believe that Conceptual Manipulation, let alone "Type 2" was ever genuinely accepted by staff members for this ability. It's at best Type 3 and even then it's shaky.

For those who want context, the Conceptual Manipulation was accepted on this thread but was never officially added to Gojo's page.

Actually, after look at the thread it wasn't properly accepted, it had one staff agreement from @Duedate8898 but he himself said that more staff input was needed and the staff he contacted, @Confluctor actually disagreed with the concept manip, but it seems that since he gave up his position as staff around that time it was just ignored, later appeared Ant asking summoning more staff (that never appeared) and said that what Duedate and Confluctor accepted should be fine to apply even if there was a lack of more staff input. So technically the concept manip was never accepted.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I can't reply to everything now as I'm getting off and other people will probably reply to this before I'm back

A.) That isn't all the evidence. Did you miss the part where Gojo states Infinity exists as a concept independent of himself and that he manifests said concept into reality? That's quite literally our Concept type 2.

Can you explain how this is conceptual? It just looks like he's bringing infinity into physicality or reality not bringing a concept into reality.

I'm gonna need you to substantiate your claim that this is in reference to idealism or nominalism because that's just blatantly untrue by our standards.

It's actually quite substantiated if you actually read what I posted here. The previous excerpt is literally just explaining how he manipulates space with mathematical/physics terms. Mathematical/physics terms being used to describe how something is being manipulated doesn't inherently make the manipulation conceptual.

So it seems that Gojo is able to tweak the concept of "near and "far". He can tweak the feeling of the enemy who thought "near!". For example, if they are separated 1000 meters away, he can make them think "he's near". In reverse, he can also control the phase to make the opponent think 1 m as "that's far!".

"Concept" is quite literally from this excerpt talking about the persons own concept or perception of near and far as we have "tweak the concept of "near and "far"" and "He can tweak the feeling of the enemy who thought "near!"".

A lot of the stuff in your post I see as having not much substance against the debunk of CM I have provided. Using mathematical or theoretical terms to describe how an ability works does not make it conceptual it would be mathematics or physics manipulation at best.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Actually, after look at the thread it wasn't properly accepted, it had one staff agreement from @Duedate8898 but he himself said that more staff input was needed and the staff he contacted, @Confluctor actually disagreed with the concept manip, but it seems that since he gave up his position as staff around that time it was just ignored, later appeared Ant asking summoning more staff (that never appeared) and said that what Duedate and Confluctor accepted should be fine to apply even if there was a lack of more staff input. So technically the concept manip was never accepted.

This is incorrect. Duedate did accept the thread and I was in conversation with confluctor before he lost his mod status and quit the wiki. Antvasima was consulted and gave his blessing for Duedate's acceptance being enough, all of which can be found in said thread. Please do not spread misinformation.

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Rare Adam Herman double U but just wait for the guy with the persona 5 avatar to come in and utterly destroy you like the Mc destroys monster girls in your favourite game.

Anyways, I agree regardless.

LOL

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Can you explain how this is conceptual? It just looks like he's bringing infinity into physicality or reality not bringing a concept into reality.

This sentence doesn't make sense. Infinity is not something physical. It's an abstract concept by definition. Gojo is also clearly stating that normally infinity is not inside of reality, his sorcery brings the concept into reality to locally effect himself and his environment via his powers.

I have legitimate question so please don't take offense. Are you aware of what a concept is?

It's actually quite substantiated if you actually read what I posted here. The previous excerpt is literally just explaining how he manipulates space with mathematical terms. Mathematical terms being used to describe how something is being manipulated doesn't inherently make the manipulation conceptual.

It does when the power is being invoked by an omnipresent concept that exist outside of reality.

and no, they aren't explaining his powers in mathematical terms. Gojo himself literally states that his power is that of control of infinity, divergence, and convergence, these are inherently conceptual constructs. They don't actually exist.

"Concept" is quite literally from this excerpt talking about the persons own concept or perception of near and far as we have "tweak the concept of "near and "far"" and "He can tweak the feeling of the enemy who thought "near!"".

You literally just ignored all of my post contextualizing this.

I will wait for you to properly respond because this isn't remotely engaging with my post.

A lot of the stuff in your post I see as having not much substance against the debunk of CM I have provided. Using mathematical or theoretical terms to describe how an ability works does not make it conceptual it would be mathematics or physics manipulation at best.

This is not a response. Debunk my points.

 

[Deidalius]

I agree with MGQscaler. His arguments seem more reasonable.

 

[BoastJr]

sounds like cope to me

anyways FRA'ing with Op

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I agree with MGQscaler. His arguments seem more reasonable.

Can you further substantiate your support? A crux of OP's argument is

"Such concepts exist strictly as non-abstract objects and hold no power over anything whatsoever. For a character to qualify for conceptual manipulation, the character must be able to manipulate abstract concepts that exist partially or completely independently of the mind."

I've already blatantly proven the infinity Gojo invokes exist independent and omnipresent of Gojo himself, and that it clearly exerts power over reality.

I'm a little confused by your response so would appreciate you clarifying how MGQ is more reasonable.

 

[AxisPowerRanger]

I agree with Dr. Whiteee's points.

 

[Deagonx]

So it's all reliant on this scan which the scan itself debunks the notion of conceptual manipulation.

Who are "S" "T" and "H" in this scan? None of those letters correspond to any of the initials of the author. I am confused as to why or how this was used for evidence in the first place.

 

[The_Pink_God]

Who are "S" "T" and "H" in this scan? None of those letters correspond to any of the initials of the author. I am confused as to why or how this was used for evidence in the first place.

IIRC they are sum mathemathicians that Gege contracted to try and explain Limitless on their own way

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Who are "S" "T" and "H" in this scan? None of those letters correspond to any of the initials of the author. I am confused as to why or how this was used for evidence in the first place.

For context, this is a Jump special that is giving readers a lecture on how JJK powers work. It features the editor of JJK (with explicit blessing from Gege in the interview) sitting down with paid professionals from fields such as information geometry and physics, to explain the powers found in the manga, and is explicitly noted to be a JJK Lecture.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

OP's points makes more sense than the opposition, who seems to rely on a lot of gymnastics to even try to make a point.

 

[Deagonx]

IIRC they are sum mathemathicians that Gege contracted to try and explain Limitless on their own way

For context, this is a Jump special that is giving readers a lecture on how JJK powers work. It features the editor of JJK (with explicit blessing from Gege in the interview) sitting down with paid professionals from fields such as information geometry and physics, to explain the powers found in the manga, and is explicitly noted to be a JJK Lecture.

Okay, then I fully and completely support removing CM. This should not have been used for evidence.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

This is incorrect. Duedate did accept the thread and I was in conversation with confluctor before he lost his mod status and quit the wiki. Antvasima was consulted and gave his blessing for Duedate's acceptance being enough, all of which can be found in said thread. Please do not spread misinformation.

@Duedate8898 says that more staff input is needed, then calls @Confluctor, he then disagreed with the concept manip even after debate with you, then he remembered that he gave up his staff position after that (this is important because it means that he wasn't demoted, so his input still count as non-demoted former staff still have their opinions held in high regards and can participate in debates that affect the wiki, so their disagreement, which was made when still being staff should I add, is essentially as important as Duedate agreement at that moment in that context), then Ant appeared and said that should be fine to apply what both of them accepted since no more staff seemed interesed in participate. So no, I wasn't spreading misinformation, the concept manip wasn't properly accepted and who ever applied it did so while knowing a just one staff agreed with it while other staff also rejecting it.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Okay, then I fully and completely support removing CM. This should not have been used for evidence.

You'd have a hard time proving that given that Jump is the IP holder and Gege expressly co-signed this.

 

[Deagonx]

Who are "S" "T" and "H" in this scan? None of those letters correspond to any of the initials of the author. I am confused as to why or how this was used for evidence in the first place.

Okay, then I fully and completely support removing CM. This should not have been used for evidence.

@Duedate8898 Are you fine with the removal of this ability from Gojo's profile?

 

[The_Pink_God]

yeah I agree with Oblivion
while OP says the most logical conclusions and the important details to how or why should it not be like that, the opposition feels like "No but you see, you just can't read" and then proceed to make a Nothingburger as a counter-point
no offense btw

 

[Dr._whiteee]

@Duedate8898 says that more staff input is needed, then calls @Confluctor, he then disagreed with the concept manip even after debate with you, then he remembered that he gave up his staff position after that (this is important because it means that he wasn't demoted, so his input still count as non-demoted former staff still have their opinions held in high regards and can participate in debates that affect the wiki, so their disagreement, which was made when still being staff should I add, is essentially as important as Duedate agreement at that moment in that context), then Ant appeared and said that should be fine to apply what both of them accepted since no more staff seemed interesed in participate. So no, I wasn't spreading misinformation, the concept manip wasn't properly accepted and who ever applied it did so while knowing a just one staff agreed with it while other staff also rejecting it.

Yes you were lol, me and confluctor had not finished our debate by that point and him leaving the debate was solely due to him not wanting to work on the wiki, not because he did not want to continue. Duedate was therefore the only mod available and a site admin gave blessing for its application to be applied.

Unless you are claiming rank above that, it was indeed properly accepted.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

This all just seems like Space hax. Nothing conceptual. Also this thread has one agreement already. Another one is needed I think.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Btw, I myself disagree with the ability and believe that it's really talking about the mathematical idea of infinite points between space.

This is also likely my last post in the thread, at least for some hours, since writing stuff and navigating through the forum with the phone is a pain.

 

[Small_Ophion]

Agree with the OP, they make much more sense, the opposition seems to be trying to make one sentence mean an entire novel here.

 

[Damage3245]

I think that the OP makes sense here.