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Very Important Dragon Ball Super Revision

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Warren Valion said:
They were only 3-A when suppressing themselves. And we don't count characters suppressing themselves as a tier or else Goku and co. should have a tier for when they are around and touch other people without killing them.

The GoDs are Low 2-C throughout the entirety of Super. Beerus doesn't get stronger throughout the arcs - he isn't Goku who trains all the time.

Beerus and Champa are Low 2-C and since they are initiating a fight with one another, it is likely they are releasing some of their true power - which affects space-time.
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The problem is, as I pointed out before, how is a character able to destroy space-time with their full power but only destroy matter when surpressing themselves? That implies Low 2-Cs are able to selectively "turn off" their space-time level effects, which makes no sense the way im looking at this.

>The GoDs are Low 2-C throughout the entirety of Super.

The thing is, as Matt explained, the only reason they are Low 2-C isnt because they have feats of affecting space-time on a universal+ scale with their power but from scaling to Infinite Zamasu, who wasnt a thing in the earlier arcs. Why would this scaling be back-scaled all the way to the beginning of Super?

Perhaps this was explained before and I just forgot but this should probably be explained. Either way, this is moreso off-topic from what im ultimately trying to resolve here. Either the GoDs need to be 2-C, or we need to downgrade the scale of the DBS Cosmology to a single space-time continuum. Its either one or the other.
 
Zamasu Chan said:
AP is different from DC. For example a bullet is wall level but can't actually destroy a wall only pierce it.
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this all depends on the distribution of energy, someone with DC wall needs to distribute all their energy equally across the wall, while a bullet has all the energy needed in a single point, but the energy of both cases is the same, so the bullet would be equally capable of injuring someone capable of withstanding the destruction of a wall.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
The problem is, as I pointed out before, how is a character able to destroy space-time with their full power but only destroy matter when surpressing themselves? That implies Low 2-Cs are able to selectively "turn off" their space-time level effects, which makes no sense the way im looking at this.

>The GoDs are Low 2-C throughout the entirety of Super.

The thing is, as Matt explained, the only reason they are Low 2-C isnt because they have feats of affecting space-time on a universal+ scale with their power but from scaling to Infinite Zamasu, who wasnt a thing in the earlier arcs. Why would this scaling be back-scaled all the way to the beginning of Super?

Perhaps this was explained before and I just forgot but this should probably be explained. Either way, this is moreso off-topic from what im ultimately trying to resolve here. Either the GoDs need to be 2-C, or we need to downgrade the scale of the DBS Cosmology to a single space-time continuum. Its either one or the other.
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Dragon Ball characters have shown to be able to affect Space-Time before. Goku destroying Hit's Pocket Dimension is proof of that. Super Buu's Vice Shout is another one for instance.


And as I said, Beerus never got any stronger throughout the series. He isn't Goku who trains every arc to grow stronger.

He was always Low 2-C, he just suppressed his strength to 3-A when he fought Goku.

So it would backscale because with Infinite Zamasu and most specifically with Ultra Instinct - we finally got to see Beerus true level of power. The power he had always suppressed during the run of the show.


And no, you're wrong. The GoDs don't need to be 2-C because both Champa and Beerus were destroying the universes together, sharing the burdern, and the effect wasn't instantanous - it was taking its time to just reach Goku and Vegeta who were of the other room they were in, let alone two entire universes.

The feat is more a range feat than an AP one.
 
as I said before, characters able to control ki manage to lower their level, beerus lowered his level to fight goku as he also lowered his level to fight SS2 Vegeta, ha not be you want to climb SS2 vegeta low 2 -C also (and the bowl of ramen that burned Beerus).

Take an example of the characters of the Wiki itself, do not climb Kefla base low 2-C but only its legendary form.
 
I agree with Akreious's summation of the situation. Unless 2 Low 2-Cs can destroy universes with separate space times, even though it's said that no amount of multipliers and stacked up power can make Low 2-Cs 2-C, they have to be 2-C.

Yes. Characters can suppress themselves? How is that relevant...?
 
>And no, you're wrong. The GoDs don't need to be 2-C because both Champa and Beerus were destroying the universes together, sharing the burdern, and the effect wasn't instantanous - it was taking its time to just reach Goku and Vegeta who were of the other room they were in, let alone two entire universes.

...Your missing my entire point here.

If Beerus and Champa were going to destroy U6 and U7 with non space-time level attacks, then that means the universes in DBS share the same space-time instead of being in their own individual space-times. But if they were going to destroy U6 and U7 with space-time level attacks, then that means they likely need to be upgraded to 2-C for breeching into seperate space-time continuums.

You cannot have a 3-A level attack breech into other universes unless they reside in the same space-time continuum as the universe you are destroying. Despite this, we currently apply both lines of logic to DBS. We currently treat what Beerus and Champa were going to do to their universes as nothing more than 3-A feats, yet at the same time, we currently treat the universes in the verse as having their own space-time continuums. And that together makes absolutely no sense as its contradictory, so one or the other is wrong.
 
Unless being Low 2-C doesn't mean being space time level, yeah, this rule has to be wrong.

And being Low 2-C means:

Universe level+: ("Low 2-C") This is for characters who can [destroy and/or create the entire 4-dimensional space-time of a single universe], not just the physical matter within one. For example, an entire timeline. Please take note that simple statements of transcending and/or overcoming space/time without any further elaboration is not enough to grant a Universe level+ rating. Such statements could be flowery language or at most simply refer to resistance to space-time manipulation.
 
So it's either Beerus and Champa can't destroy space-time of a single universe even individually— which means they're not Low 2-C even thought we all ateee they are, or... Well, you know the rest.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
>And no, you're wrong. The GoDs don't need to be 2-C because both Champa and Beerus were destroying the universes together, sharing the burdern, and the effect wasn't instantanous - it was taking its time to just reach Goku and Vegeta who were of the other room they were in, let alone two entire universes.
...Your missing my entire point here.

If Beerus and Champa were going to destroy U6 and U7 with non space-time level attacks, then that means the universes in DBS share the same space-time instead of being in their own individual space-times. But if they were going to destroy U6 and U7 with space-time level attacks, then that means they likely need to be upgraded to 2-C for breeching into seperate space-time continuums.

You cannot have a 3-A level attack breech into other universes unless they reside in the same space-time continuum as the universe you are destroying. Despite this, we currently apply both lines of logic to DBS. We currently treat what Beerus and Champa were going to do to their universes as nothing more than 3-A feats, yet at the same time, we currently treat the universes in the verse as having their own space-time continuums. And that together makes absolutely no sense as its contradictory, so one or the other is wrong.
Click to expand...
They aren't hitting each other with 3-A attacks - they are two Low 2-C beings hitting each other with Low 2-C level attacks. The fact that is proven by the notion that they would have destroyed both universes in their fight.

Beerus and Champa have no reason to suppress themselves when fighting with one another - they are near equals in power.
 
Then that means we need to stop treating what they were going to do as 3-A level attacks but instead Low 2-C ones. Which as a result would likely mean a 2-C upgrade.

Which was one of the options I poined out in my OP.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Then that means we need to stop treating what they were going to do as 3-A level attacks but instead Low 2-C ones. Which as a result would likely mean a 2-C upgrade.
Which was one of the options I poined out in my OP.
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It wouldn't be 2-C for the reasons I have already stated.

Both of the characters were attacking each other sharing the burden of the feat.

And the "destroying both universes" is the GoD's Hakai energy spreading and erasing everything - it isn't an instant attack that would destroy both universes.

It took like 30 seconds for it to reach the other room where Goku and Vegeta were, who knows how long it would take to reach the end of both universes.


The feat is unquantifable - the only thing that can be determined from it is that both Beerus and Champa's energy can raech 2-C distances.
 
You cant have it both ways Warren.

Either accept that they were both effecting space-time, meaning its a tier 2 feat instead of a 3-A one. Or they werent effecting space-time, meaning the cosmology of the universes needs to be downgraded to sharing the same space-times as each other.

Its one or the other.
 
Like, they can suppress themselves to 3-A or even Wall level, but why would they do that against someone of equal or comparable strength. You can make that argument for Son Fodderku but Chadpa and big BRUS aren't gonna go head to head without bringing at least a percentage of that Real Shit.

And even if they were just playing games— those faces don't seem like it— but how were they gonna nuke two universes separated by two different space-times from one universe's location with non-Space-Time destroying High 3-A at best power? What. Can 3-A power cross universal space-times now? Or what, is the most rational argument with the least assumptions possible that they were gonna nuke one universe's matter exclusively, and then somehow fly to the other universe and do it AGAIN? When we:

1. See the matter underneath them disintegrate, likely because of their GoD Hakai energy, which more directly implies that the destruction's center would be from that point and expand further out than it does that this part means nothing and that they're gonna fly around and nuke universes twice with less than a fraction of their real power.

2. know that They're Low 2-C so they ARE able to affect universal space times. They wouldn't fight with anything less than that, unless you want to argue that them being angry enough to punch each other doesn't translate to them even slightly putting what they actually have into it. On top of them probably not wanting to risk being one shot by the other whilst suppressed, given that the other actually wants to hurt them.

3. Again, are more rational in thinking that they're gonna destroy the universes from that point they're standing, with their real power, as we don't assume they're moving from the very spot they stand. Less assumptions.
 
The Hakai energy cop out doesn't negate the fact that both of them individually are able to affect the space times with their Low 2-C power. You'd need a more direct statement to say that their destruction energy itself will be what destroys the two SEPARATE universes and not the clash of power themselves as that is the more intuitive assessment with the least assumptions. Also, the strength of their Hakai is also determined by their overall strength. So even if they had 2-C range with Hakai, not only would that by default make them both individually 2-C because they can destroy things that big with Hakai and Low 2-C plus Low 2-C is never enough to be 2-C, but they would also have enough evidence to support a 2-C in AP as well, as their Hakai's potency and effectiveness is directly tied to power, and being able to nuke universes with Hakai would also translate to being able to nuke universes in general.

Can you also come up with an explanation on why Hakai EE with massive correlation to AP, which, from character's in the same tier doesn't even work on people with Low 2-C durability wouldn't also erase the space-times in between the universes? You know, so that somehow the EE can conveniently hop from one space time to another without erasing any 4-D thing in between, despite the power being 4D?
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
You cant have it both ways Warren.
Either accept that they were both effecting space-time, meaning its a tier 2 feat instead of a 3-A one. Or they werent effecting space-time, meaning the cosmology of the universes needs to be downgraded to sharing the same space-times as each other.

Its one or the other.
Click to expand...
It's not one or the other for reasons I have already explained.

Ki has shown to effect Space-Time like a dozen times before, both Beerus and Champa are Low 2-C and aren't suppressing themselves when fighting one another. And the feat isn't quantafiable because of the time it would take to complete the faet and that they both did the feat.

The only thing that is the range of their attacks - which would be 2-C.
 
What you do not understand though is that 2-C over time is still 2-C. No amount of Low 2-C power can cause 2-C destruction just as no amount of multipliers added on top of Low 2-C can make you 2-C. They'd NEVER destroy 2 separate space time continuum's from one point at the same time no matter how long they fought, unless they were 2-C and to assume that they were going to go to A SECOND spacetime and nuke it AGAIN is adding shit, making an assumption with no evidence when the safer application of Occam's razor is that they were gonna nuke them from one spot. The Hakai erasing the floor below them implies it pretty well, and going from that implication to them somehow going from one timespace, destroying it, and going to another time space and destroying it isn't squaring well with the information and implications presented.

This is dimension type shit. This isn't like normal 3D size AoE Destructive Capacity stuff where we can "quantify" the values of someone's AP. These are infinities. We can't "quantify" anything here being stating the quality of infinity. They're either destroying multiple space-times or they aren't.

You're watching two Angry Gods of Destruction with enough raw power to erase the space-times of their universes— destroying their entire universe on a 4D scale— strike out each other. Their fight is so cataclysmic that it erases the existence of the very ground they stand on and as they quarrel, the destruction energy they manipulate expands and continues to erase more and more things from existence. Their Angel attendants chastise them harshly, being their more knowledgeable, and even more powerful retainers— saying that they'll destroy BOTH of their universes if they continue to fight.

What part of that paragraph implies that they're gonna fight until they nuke ONE universal space-time, and then travel to ANOTHER universal space-time to destroy THAT one as well, especially when it can be argued that only their Angels can do so due to their powers and neither GoDs in Question nor ANY of them ever demonstrates the ability to run or fly from one space-time to another, or even to the edge of an infinite universe, or even to the edge of a finite universe with enough time to make it PLAUSIBLE that they'd go from 7 to 6 in the midst of a fight? Because that's the ONLY other way that 2 Universes with separate space-times can be destroyed, and I am pretty sure I described that scene right, so there's no reason to think that this is what was to happen.

That's what I mean when you're adding stuff.
 
The arguments above keep trying to make it so Low 2-C strength combined can equal a flat out 2-C feat, which cannot happen. As per our rules, a Low 2-C can never reach 2-C unless they themselves have the ability to be 2-C.

A shared 2-C Feat between 2 Low 2-Cs means that the Low 2-Cs HAS to be 2-C or that the feat isn't 2-C. No inbetween.
 
Here's how I think it should work. Low 2-C Mugen Zamasu all the way up to GoD Toppo, 2-C for omen 3, legendary Broly, Blue Gogeta, the GoDs and anyone higher. Zeno could be at least 2-C.
 
I think an "at least Low 2-C" that we all agree to be superior to all other low 2-C ratings is a good compromise if the resulting destruction would have indeed been a 2-C feat.
 
Warren Valion said:
It's not one or the other for reasons I have already explained.

Ki has shown to effect Space-Time like a dozen times before, both Beerus and Champa are Low 2-C and aren't suppressing themselves when fighting one another. And the feat isn't quantafiable because of the time it would take to complete the faet and that they both did the feat.

The only thing that is the range of their attacks - which would be 2-C.
Click to expand...
That makes absolutely 0 sense. If they were Low 2-C when fighting each other, that means both of them were going to effect the space-times of U6 and U7, which means it would be more than 2-C range. It would be 2-C all together.

You can't first claim that they were using above 3-A level attacks to destroy the 2 universes and then claim the feat is unquantifable. Because if it's unquantifiable, then that means they werent going to destroy the space-times of the 2 universes, only their matter like the discussion rule says, which is a 3-A level attack. And you cant destroy multiple universes with 3-A attacks unless those universes share the same space-time continuum as each other.

So yes, it is one or the other. If you choose them effecting space-time, it is a 2-C feat. But if you don't choose them destroying space-time, then it means the universes in the DBS Multiverse aren't separated by individual space-time continuums to qualify for tier 2.
 
@Aguila

But... No. They CAN'T be anything other than 2-C or higher if they accomplish a 2-C feat. No amount of Low 2-C power can do that. This is almost frustrating and if I wasn't convinced that you're probably not trying to be like this, I would be pissed. Cause it sounds like you're desperate to keep it Low 2-C irrationally. No offense because I am sure you're making good faith argument.
 
Oh good. My bad then Aguila.

Edit: But I am also not sure, since I saw him say something similar in reference to the GoDs and their feat. So I don't know if he's saying that— a pretty charitable assumption.
 
All these arguments against 2-C have way too many assumptions and like mentioned before, nitpicking. Why the hell would Whis AND Vados instantly stop them from fighting if the fight was gonna take long or just destroy the matter. By your logic Goku was doing the same thing but Whis didn't do shit about it, he was sitting on his ass eating food. There's also the fact that Whis and Vados can reverse time. If the attacks were just 3-A they could rewind time reversing the destruction, but they won't be able to do that if time is gone.

The statement is super blatant as well as what's shown. When fighting, Beerus and Champa don't move from the single spot they're in meaning that the destruction will expand from the one spot they more in. The destruction would also likely spread extremely quickly due to how fast the Angels stopped them and depending on how long the fight is. The baseball fight for example looked as if it was gonna be concluded soon if it was to conclude in that last blow, then both universes would've definitely been obliterated in that one shot. Also notice how there are crazy storms when they start fighting, it's very similar to what Super Buuhan was doing while destroying the universe via space time. Also the feat itself is literally just a fraction of their power because the destruction starts even when they're standing around.

But anyway I'm tired, I go sleep now.
 
I agree with Prom and Matt, we don't need to change anything. Not unless a some more future material gives us better feats, which has yet to happen and probably will be a long time before that happens.

Edit: Andy actually nailed it.
 
AguilaR101 said:
I think they should be simply considered a higher level of Low 2-C on the basis that they actually have power to achieve a 2-C feat with their forces combined.
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I agree with Prom. And I've been saying ^this for years.

No matter how you look at it, for Champa to be able to destroy his own universe through sheer AP while remaining in another universe, or both of them being able to perform a 2-C feat with their combined power, should already yield a result unquantifiably above baseline Low 2-C for each.
 
Wait, how is a split 2-C feat even possible for any amount of Low 2-C's to do???

In addition, "2x Low 2-C doesn't equal 2-C", so why would two people with Low 2-C power add up to a 2-C feat, when no amount of multipliers that would amplify one character's power to way more times both of these character's power would be able to accomplish such a thing???

I don't think you guys are bullshitting, but that really doesn't make any sense and saying that we're overthinking shit doesn't... At all make a good defense of the discussion rule, or for why they wouldn't both be 2-C?

Like, what, can two 3-A characters fight hard enough to destroy a Universe's space-time— accomplish a blatant Low 2-C feat, and still be only 3-A? How— because no amount of 3D power will ever add up to 4D power?! The only way these characters would be able to affect a 4D construct is with 4D power, right? The same for 2-C feats, correct?

PLEASE don't just leave and say you're overthinking it— especially Matt, who tends to say he disagrees with something and not explain why very well, and I know i'm not crazy when I say that, so don't gaslight me.
 
Amexim said:
Wait, how is a split 2-C feat even possible for any amount of Low 2-C's to do???
Click to expand...
It has been obvious for quite some time that Dragon Ball doesn't treat the distance between Universal - Multi-Universal - Multi-Dimensional beings as infinite.

(To which, I TOTALLY agree ; That sounds 100% how the shows works).

Just see that other discussion about upgrading N.17's durability, it's the same thing.
 
But that's not how our TIERING SYSTEM works, and we all know the staff isn't going to change the tiering system just because of dragon ball not being consistent with it.

Are you seriously going to just go that far with it? Especially since that whole idea you have is really nonsense. It doesn't matter how the writing implies the characters don't believe in dimensional tiering, that's how things work. Otherwise, they'd be 2-C via multipliers by now. Stop this.
 
Amexim said:
But that's not how our TIERING SYSTEM works, and we all know the staff isn't going to change the tiering system just because of dragon ball not being consistent with it.
Click to expand...
That's how dragon ball works...
 
Amexim said:
But that's not how our TIERING SYSTEM works, and we all know the staff isn't going to change the tiering system just because of dragon ball not being consistent with it.
Are you seriously going to just go that far with it? Especially since that whole idea you have is really nonsense. It doesn't matter how the writing implies the characters don't believe in dimensional tiering, that's how things work. Otherwise, they'd be 2-C via multipliers by now. Stop this.
Click to expand...
Actually, various people agrees on the matter that there a lot of fictional verses that do NOT treat the distance between fictional verses as not infinite. It's not just Dragon Ball.

If it were for ME, it's something I'd specific on the tier ruling, but whatever, the admins will decide for that.

Anyway, what I can say it's that's how the Dragon Ball verse works. We can push for maintaining the notion that the distance between said tiers has to be infinite, but IMHO it would just create a huge mess, and would not reflect the show's taking on the matter.

The scene is simple as that: Beerus can destroy a universe, Champa can destroy a universe. If they fight together they can destroy two universes!
 
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