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Versus Thread Removal Requests (New forum)

Deagonx said:
That's fine, you aren't required to debate with me. But I do have a voice here, and my position is that it should not be removed. If that is to be overriden, it will require more staff input.
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Alright so thats one against removal, six people including one admin in support of removal
 
Deagonx said:
The Kirito side did make an argument based on abilities and possible paths to victory
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If the argument itself doesn't hold, than it doesn't really matter. Versus Thread Rules is very explicit about needing good arguments rather than arguments that people just agree with

Kirito does not have feats of skill that allow him to overcome a high AP advantage and his battle healing is less effective against stronger opponents, plainly. If the argument is that he overcomes AP with skill and battle healing despite this fact, the argument is just poor.
 
DMUA said:
If the argument itself doesn't hold, than it doesn't really matter. Versus Thread Rules is very explicit about needing good arguments rather than arguments that people just agree with

Kirito does not have feats of skill that allow him to overcome a high AP advantage and his battle healing is less effective against stronger opponents, plainly. If the argument is that he overcomes AP with skill and battle healing despite this fact, the argument is just poor.
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Exactly this. Deagon, you are literally just wrong. I cannot put it in any better words.

Please do not comment on threads without actually knowing the standards by which they run. I expect better from a discussion mod.
 
Moritzva said:
It was not that post specifically, but him telling me that poor, badly explained, unsubstantiated/proofless arguments are not a reason to remove a thread, and implying it should only be done because of profile revisions, is a clear-cut misunderstanding of the thread. My original comment may not have been clear enough on this, so I am explaining this now.
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I get the notion that I shall be dragged screaming to the thread to form an opinion. Dreadful.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
I get the notion that I shall be dragged screaming to the thread to form an opinion. Dreadful.
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You could always simply not comment on it. I don't plan on contributing to the thread's redo because I genuinely do not care about the matchup in any capacity.

I am only being a stick in the mud over a flagrant misunderstanding of our rules. If anyone tries to drag me onto the thread itself to argue, I will likely hit them with said muddy stick. I advise wise souls to do the same, and I trust DMUA's judgement on SAO-related matters to handle a redo properly.
 
He's referring to determining the outcome of this dispute, I believe, not voting on the potential rematch thread.
 
Moritzva said:
You could always simply not comment on it. I don't plan on contributing to the thread's redo because I genuinely do not care about the matchup in any capacity.

I am only being a stick in the mud over a flagrant misunderstanding of our rules. If anyone tries to drag me onto the thread itself to argue, I will likely hit them with said muddy stick. I advise wise souls to do the same, and I trust DMUA's judgement on SAO-related matters to handle a redo properly.
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It's not quite that simple, I think. You have asserted multiple times that Deagon is incompetent, and the vote is presently tied regarding removal- a fact that is rapidly devolving into a headache.

I'll try to remember to go through the thread and form an opinion- not of the match result itself, but rather whether I think the arguments are sufficiently justified.
 
Potentially. But I have nothing else to say. DMUA put it well: this thread is not about counting votes. A shit argument with a lot of votes is still a shit argument.

I have paraphrased your stated opinions on our standards here, taken from discord, and you have not addressed them nor disagreed with me across multiple posts. As linked by DMUA, your stated opinions are wrong.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
It's not quite that simple, I think. You have asserted multiple times that Deagon is incompetent, and the vote is presently tied regarding removal- a fact that is rapidly devolving into a headache.

I'll try to remember to go through the thread and form an opinion- not of the match result itself, but rather whether I think the arguments are sufficiently justified.
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I am not saying Deagon is incompetent. I am saying his opinion (which he has not disputed) is incorrect, which it is. For that reason, his vote holds very little weight.

If you want to read the thread and either agree or disagree with me, I have no issue with that. If you think the thread should stay in place, I am willing to step back and wait for more votes. I trust your judgment on the matter, and with that on the table, we should wait for Bambu.
 
Moritzva said:
I have paraphrased your stated opinions on our standards here, taken from discord, and you have not addressed them nor disagreed with me across multiple posts
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Well, yeah, because you're bordering on the web-forum equivalent of foaming at the mouth and I'm trying to avoid any escalation. I don't agree with your description of my opinions, but I'm just really not trying to have an argument here given how strongly you feel. I'm content to leave it in the hands of additional staff. I am confident that if I am so beyond the pale as you claim that they will reach the same conclusion and then this will be settled, so there's no reason to rush it.
 
I agree more with what Mori is saying regarding the vs thread removal thing being valid but I do agree with Bambu that "Objectively incorrect" might have been too blunt of a statement. Everyone's allowed to agree or disagree with a thread removal regardless of reason. Though a better reason may be needed to hold enough weight to determine an outcome however.
 
Deagonx said:
Well, yeah, because you're bordering on the web-forum equivalent of foaming at the mouth and I'm trying to avoid any escalation. I don't agree with your description of my opinions, but I'm just really not trying to have an argument here given how strongly you feel. I'm content to leave it in the hands of additional staff. I am confident that if I am so beyond the pale as you claim that they will reach the same conclusion and then this will be settled, so there's no reason to rush it.
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You can paint it as you'd like, Deagon, you said it to me in front of several people. You, yourself, said that you thought bad reasoning wasn't a good enough reason and that profile changes was the primary reason for the thread. This is not correct, and was explained to you.

If you want to get nit-picky about specifics, you painted it as not wanting versus removal to just be a second round of arguing and debating. When told why Kirito's reasonings were poor, you initially said "that sounds like a reason to vote for Yang, not a reason to remove the thread."

The problem is that rather than ever acknowledging this (which you have not done so far), you insist on dismissing people calling out your behavior as "foaming at the mouth" rather than justifiably pointing out that your personal standards are not indicative of the wiki as a whole.

Because you stand by this point, your vote is hard to take in any sincerity.
 
Okay. Again, I am not interested in debating your description of my sentiments. I am sure other staff can look at the thread, and if your conclusion is as transparent as you suggest, it will be reached by them as well.
 
to be completely fair, what constitutes a "shit" or "bad" argument is pretty subjective, and going out to say such arguments are, in fact, bad, shit and should not be counted is pretty ****** given I'm sure a few of the other voters would disagree on that and might even think the opposing arguments are bad as well, and possibly why they even voted otherwise to begin with.

Idk I kinda get what Deagon is saying, calling a bunch of votes dogshit and voiding them because you don't think they're good enough is way too subjective a reason to delete a matchup given how many actually voted otherwise, like maybe if it was universally agreed they were bad, but that evidently isn't the case and multiple people seem to think they were sufficient. This isn't the same as removing a thread due to an upgrade, downgrade, or new info.

If it is such an issue and the arguments, apparently, are that awful, just redo the thread but this time get a handful of 3rd party dudes to give input after the reasons are given, who couldn't give less of a **** about who wins, to get some unbiased votes if "bias" is allegedly such an issue, that way there's none of this subjective "Well personally I don't think it's good enough so-".

Like at the very least get a few more staff to weigh in before getting trigger happy over, Kirito vs. Yang I guess?
 
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Chariot190 said:
If it is such an issue and the arguments, apparently, are that awful, just redo the thread but this time get a handful of 3rd party dudes to give input after the reasons are given,
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This is, indeed, what is being proposed. Removing the thread, and redoing it. Deagon has said he doesn't oppose redoing the thread (which would necessitate removing and replacing it with another verdict) on discord, but has also said in that same breath that he opposes removing it.

I believe we should just redo the thread, like I have already proposed much earlier. People seem to disagree with that. However, I figure we should let Bambu speak his piece first.
 
I'm in favor of the thread's removal. The arguments did not seem very strong at all, and I feel the match is thus due for... well, a rematch. The need for good arguments is made explicitly clear by the Versus Threads page.

And no I will not be participating in said rematch, I dislike both verses and am not interested in debating either
 
As the thread creator I’m honestly in favor of removing it to. I don’t care which way but I already don’t like this back and forth and I probably could come up with stronger arguments (although I won’t participate if there’s a rematch I don’t feel like doing a vs match for a while tbh)
 
Moritzva said:
This is, indeed, what is being proposed. Removing the thread, and redoing it. Deagon has said he doesn't oppose redoing the thread (which would necessitate removing and replacing it with another verdict) on discord, but has also said in that same breath that he opposes removing it.

I believe we should just redo the thread, like I have already proposed much earlier. People seem to disagree with that. However, I figure we should let Bambu speak his piece first.
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imo that's aight. But in that case, wait to remove it till the rematch is done, and just replace it once finished with whatever happens.
because be real, who the **** knows how that match is gonna play out, it could end up being closed without a conclusion for all we know for a multitude of reasons. Better to actually see what happens before jumping the gun.
 
I'm going to ask that the above be the last of the side chatter. This thread can go back to normal operations, I'll go over the thread later and make a ruling. If other evaluating staff wish to tackle the subject, I'd welcome being freed from the inconvenience.
 
CurrySenpai said:
As the thread creator I’m honestly in favor of removing it to. I don’t care which way but I already don’t like this back and forth and I probably could come up with stronger arguments (although I won’t participate if there’s a rematch I don’t feel like doing a vs match for a while tbh)
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I'd like to thank you for being level-headed about this, it does you credit.

With that said, I don't think the thread needs removed. The voting was perhaps overquick but we've no rules against that sort of thing. I had been led to believe that arguments in favor of Kirito were insubstantial or not present at all- this is not the case, early in the thread are a great deal of reasonable arguments that seem to be backed up by the profile itself. Whether I'd agree with the actual outcome of the match is a separate matter- typically, I do presume DMUA to know his shit in regards to SAO, but I cannot nor can anyone give him absolute reign over it and he alone does not decide the Versus Thread outcomes for the verse. As it stands, people seem to have had legitimate reason to vote the way they did, and some continued to defend their position after Weekly and others gave a rebuttal of the opposition.

Votes are based on vague qualifiers like skill margins and tactics in tandem with more concrete elements (dual swords vs dual fists, better analytical prediction, healing spam, etc) tossed in depending on who you're asking. I find this to be a justifiable enough reason to vote presuming no elements make this a stomp that I missed. I cannot guarantee that nobody blindly FRA'd, the practice is miserably common, but in this instance I disagree that everyone did.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
So thats two staff against removal, two staff, four members, and the OP of the thread in favor of removal

So removal it is?
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'fraid not. If other evaluating staff want to weigh in they may, otherwise the thread stays.
 
When you said 2 staff agree with removal, did that include CloverDragon?
 
DDM didn't side concretely one way or the other. If he were to side with Mori, it would return to neutral.
 
Even with a majority, I'd prefer a more glaring majority before moving forward, in this case.

I'll be leaving this case for the time being. Handle it responsibly.

Edit: I am not sure how much credence Calc Group votes are given, but at that point I feel like we are picking at straws. I'd say DMUA is a reputable user that is also knowledgeable on the verse, so his vote should definitely count.
 
May I ask why my posts keep getting deleted each time I comment here?
Like, I can understand not wanting a lot of clutter, but me simply saying that I also agree with the removal to Weekly and not making any further comments isn't worthy of deletion IMO.
This isn't even a Staff Discussion thread and other regular users can comment so I don't know why my posts got singled out.
 
I don't see a reason to count votes aside from what we would otherwise consider evaluating staff, as this is an administrative matter. I'm not overly invested in the outcome of this battle or this particular vote, but I am relieved at the very least that it's clear that my basis for opposing the removal was not as ridiculous as it was made out to be. I am content to defer to later staff votes, such as if DDM takes a firm stance later on or if another staff member looks over the thread and comes to a decision.
 
TheMonkeMan said:
May I ask why my posts keep getting deleted each time I comment here?
Like, I can understand not wanting a lot of clutter, but me simply saying that I also agree with the removal to Weekly and not making any further comments isn't worthy of deletion IMO.
This isn't even a Staff Discussion thread and other regular users can comment so I don't know why my posts got singled out.
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You've already stated as much. It is now clutter to repeatedly restate that. It's a wiki management thread. So, you said your piece a few times now, please let the staff handle it, thank you.
 
I actually never stated that before but yeah, we should definitely drop all the peanut gallery shenanigans and let staff talk, I agree on that.
Just wanted to ask a quick question is all.
 
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