• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Venuzdonoa Downgrade (Improved Argument)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Wasn't all of this discussed before in the big 3?
 

Wasn't all of this discussed before in the big 3?
OP argument are indeed already discussed in their and others arguments too.
The prologue author note does not say anything about Venuzdonoa destroying all things in creation or "no matter how infinite they are".

"Official translation doesn't have creation thing"
It doesn't but it has the same quote that is said by Anos, just worded differently, which is a support to my point, as those quotes are said from his pov (which is my point)

Which is a non-omniscient narrative, as it is based on his point of view. Therefore limited to his perception and what he knows. You people treat it as an omniscient source that retroactively conforms with whatever happens later on in the plot, which wouldn't be true at all here.

Irrelevant to what I'm saying. Don't bring unrelated things for the sake of bringing them.

Apples and oranges. EGA cant destroy Silver Sea either, so not sure why you are even mentioning it.
I was trying to say Anos not having knowledge argument isn't a good refute for Venozdonor. Because when he created EGA he had zero Knowledge. It may not be able to destroy silver sea but my point was he was capable of creating which already exists in Silver Sea.
 

Wasn't all of this discussed before in the big 3?
Is this OK to ask Ant to close the thread. If OP wants he should bring a new evidence instead of using same ones from these posts.
 
I was trying to say Anos not having knowledge argument isn't a good refute for Venozdonor. Because when he created EGA he had zero Knowledge. It may not be able to destroy silver sea but my point was he was capable of creating which already exists in Silver Sea.
That in itself is indeed proof that he may create something that destroys more than he is already of, but such things are limited by feats. We don't assume EGA can destroy the SS just because it could destroy higher-dimensional spaces that Anos didn't know before (as there is no proof it can actually destroy all of them or the SS itself). So it's not something that debunks the first point of the OP.
 
That in itself is indeed proof that he may create something that destroys more than he is already of, but such things are limited by feats. We don't assume EGA can destroy the SS just because it could destroy higher-dimensional spaces that Anos didn't know before (as there is no proof it can actually destroy all of them or the SS itself). So it's not something that debunks the first point of the OP.
Well you already read the series. you know how reason works in the verse
Reason > Order and Order Exists throughout the series. Unless there is a proof Order doesn't exists in sea i don't really agree with the OP
 

Wasn't all of this discussed before in the big 3?
All of the arguments OP made & your questions already tackled in the above threads and already got rejected before. OP point of "all of creation" can be solved by changing the explanation. If you two staffs are fine we can change the explanation in this thread only. Just "all of creation' thing should be changed to "all of existence" as official translation states.
(Venuzdonoa can destroy all things in Existence, no matter how tough, eternal or infinite they are, which would include the Silver Sea which is composed of 99+ layers, with each layer containing countless/infinite silver universes in the shape of bubbles, and each bubble containing sanctuaries that include an infinite multiverse, with the latter being only a "microcosm" compared to the entirety of a bubble. In front of this Reason Destroying Sword, all reason turns to nothing, therefore it is useless to think about what it can or cannot do)
 
All this talk about closing the thread when the only staff member to comment here seems to agree with the premise... It should be kept open so long as people are actively discussing it, which they are.

Anyways, I do agree with the thread based on what I've seen.
 
All this talk about closing the thread when the only staff member to comment here seems to agree with the premise... It should be kept open so long as people are actively discussing it, which they are.

Anyways, I do agree with the thread based on what I've seen.

Wasn't all of this discussed before in the big 3?
Using same argument again & again which already got Debunked is not an argument
 
Using same argument again & again which already got Debunked is not an argument
That was 2 years ago, it seems. You still haven't provided concrete evidence that Anos knew about the Silver Sea when he made that statement, so we cannot reasonably assume he meant Venuzdonoa can destroy that on top of all things.

Like I said, pushing for a thread closure when the thread is still active and staff are weighing in is in bad form. I've avoided doing that even with repetitive arguments about the same old things, so you should too.
 
That was 2 years ago, it seems. You still haven't provided concrete evidence that Anos knew about the Silver Sea when he made that statement, so we cannot reasonably assume he meant Venuzdonoa can destroy that on top of all things.

Like I said, pushing for a thread closure when the thread is still active and staff are weighing in is in bad form. I've avoided doing that even with repetitive arguments about the same old things, so you should too.
Ahm, can we just say that you did not read OP since he did not add anything new from 2 years, 10000 years ago or 5 years ago, he did not add anything new. He copied and pasted the same debunked arguments.

Also, no, I did not push it. I did not even request one.
 
That was 2 years ago, it seems. You still haven't provided concrete evidence that Anos knew about the Silver Sea when he made that statement, so we cannot reasonably assume he meant Venuzdonoa can destroy that on top of all things.

Like I said, pushing for a thread closure when the thread is still active and staff are weighing in is in bad form. I've avoided doing that even with repetitive arguments about the same old things, so you should too.
The same argument already tackled in there and doesn't change anything bring something new instead spamming same thing again and again. I don't care because Ultima and other staff who are more knowledgeable people already agreed with Venozdonor scaling to Silver Sea.

Feel free to bring new arguments Instead of bringing same argument again and again.
 
Ahm, can we just say that you did not read OP since he did not add anything new from 2 years, 10000 years ago or 5 years ago, he did not add anything new. He copied and pasted the same debunked arguments.

Also, no, I did not push it. I did not even request one.
People asked it when some modderator think some Op point are valid. It need to convince the moderator before talk about closing the thread.
 
You asked it when some modderator think some Op point are valid. You need to convince the moderator before talk about it.
I asked for it if there is notability. I never requested, and neither Elde did. So basically, don't complain about a nonexistent action.
 
I don't care if nothing new was added. There is no discussion rule against it, a staff member agrees with the premise, and there is an ongoing debate. The thread should remain open.
 
Guys, I am seeing y'all misunderstanding my sentence, I never request or decide or even do anything. Read my sentence once again.
I didn't talk specificaly about you, just tell that their should not be talk about closing the thread if some moderator think that op point are standing
 
Disagree. Not only is this a poor attempt at a downgrade, this is basically the same as the last thread about 2yrs ago which was rejected.

"Venuzdonoa can destroy anything in Existence regardless of how sturdy, Infinite or Eternal it is"
"All Logic is meaningless before Venuzdonoa, it is useless to think about what it can or can't do"

The statement alone already disproves the first two points and is further aided by the fact that the sword has zero anti-feats.

Whether Anos knew about the silver sea or not is meaningless. Among the things of the cosmology anos didn't know about, he didn't know about the full world inside a bubble yet created a spell that won't just destroy the world he knew about but also what he didn't know was beyond it.
The reason why Anos was unaffected when Venuzdonoa was used against him (and why people consider Anos' "True Power" to be superior to Venuzdonoa) is because his Purple Magic Eyes have superior reason-destroying hax to Venuzdonoa.
Wrong. The Eyes of Purple Destruction don't have reason destroying hax. The Eyes of Purple Destruction are stated to disrupt and destroy order not reason. Reason/Logic>>>>Order. Anos only eyes which are capable of affecting logic are the Eyes of Chaotic Destruction. Venuzdonoa not affecting him has more to do with anos than eyes.
Characters who get absolutely obliterated by Venuzdonoa have been shown to resist the EoPD. EoPD couldn't completely null Befenguzdogma and Graham's EoPD couldn't null Venuzdonoa either.
Anos literally called Venuzdonoa a stick when Avos dilhevia used it against him.
The most important point is that nowhere in the story is the Silver Sea ever referred to as a creation by any of the characters or exposition.
This goes against the lore of the story itself. The reason why every order is a type 1 concept is because they all existed before the world was created and the destruction of any order would destroy the world. For anything to exist, there must be an order governing it. The silver sea exists and has it's own order which is "Power flows from shallow to deep". Everytime anos has done something beyond their common sense they always comment about how there's no such order in the sea. Creation itself is literally order. Nothing can exist without order and Venuzdonoa is able to destroy order itself.
In the Silver Sea, bubbles come into existence on their own in the 0th Layer. Then a God of Creation is born into that bubble, and they create a World. Then Gods that embody the concepts of that World are born, followed by other races. Creation refers to the World that has been created by the Goddess of Creation and everything in it.
Now the OP has decided to shoot himself in the foot.

By this, the bubbles themselves are not part of creation as they literally just sprout into existence. The world is what the creator god creates inside the bubble hence by the premise of this thread even the destruction of the bubble should be impossible for all characters as they're not a part of creation.
There is no proof and no implications within the story that that the Silver Sea is a creation.
The existence of order that governs the silver sea itself is the proof as I've said above. Nothing can exist without order. Before there was anything, even a world there must be order be it creation, destruction, life, death, time, space etc.
It would be nothing more than headcanon to assume that it is, and headcanon is never viable to be used as a fact.
Then he goes ahead to say this
Venuzdonoa has no anti-feats to it's original statement. It has worked in deeper worlds just fine, reason being that it's deep magic to begin with, so nothing would interfere with it exerting it's Order of Destruction.
This CRT is a desperate attempt at a downgrade that it enters the realm of hypocrisy irrespective of whether it's intentional or not.
The OP is trying to downgrade Venuzdonoa because it's destruction statement was made before the silver sea was introduced and as such should only be limited to what anos knowledge was.
He is now ignoring the fact that anos has created magic that works beyond what knowledge he had. Why should Venuzdonoa be downgraded because anos didn't know about the silver sea when anos has clearly created things that are beyond the scope of his knowledge?
Deeper Worlds are all creations by their God of Creation, but the Silver Sea isn't. So all the statement would mean is that Venuzdonoa works just as effectively whatever World it's in, not that it can destroy the Silver Sea.
Shoots themselves in the foot once again. Bubbles are not part of creation only the world inside them yet several characters are capable of affecting the bubbles themselves.
Essentially, what I'm arguing is that Venuzdonoa shouldn't be stated to scale to the Silver Sea because no statements or feats prove that it does, and while there are no "anti-feats" (make sure to have read what I said about anti-feats and the Silver Sea as a whole), that isn't enough to prove it scales to the Silver Sea.
Essentially what I'm saying is that this should be closed as it's not only a poor attempt at a downgrade, it's a repeat of the same arguments used years ago which are all easily refutable.

Venuzdonoa's statement is not limited to creation as it has destroyed things that aren't part of creation. The statement also includes "Regardless of how tough, infinite or eternal it is" which makes Anos beyond boundless but thos wiki likes to downplay.

The OP admitted the first 3 points are weak and limited his main argument to "in Creation" but the light novel changed that to "in existence" and venuzdonoa has already destroyed nonexistence.
"But it couldn't destroy graham". It destroyed graham, effortlessly even. Each time he was destroyed he became deeper nothingness that lacks logic yet Venuzdonoa continued to destroy him regardless.

Lastly, the entire point of the OP is "Anos didn't know about the silver sea when this statement was made". The counter is "Anos has created things beyond what his knowledge is already" hence no arbitrary limiter should be placed on Venuzdonoa when weaker stuff has worked regardless of what knowledge he had.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top