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Venuzdonoa Downgrade (Improved Argument)

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Planck69 said:
Creating something that can destroy a cosmic expanse with no knowledge of that expanses existence doesn't have any problems in its logic?
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It was literally done thus this point is moot
Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
Irrelevant to what I'm saying. Don't bring unrelated things for the sake of bringing them
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Venuzdonoa> Lion of Arzenon
Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
Apples and oranges. EGA cant destroy Silver Sea either, so not sure why you are even mentioning it.
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The point is that the character had no knowledge of the cosmology hence it's statement should be limited yet the same character has done/ created things that were beyond the scope of their knowledge.
 
Oblivion_Of_The_Endless said:
That in itself is indeed proof that he may create something that destroys more than he is already of, but such things are limited by feats. We don't assume EGA can destroy the SS just because it could destroy higher-dimensional spaces that Anos didn't know before (as there is no proof it can actually destroy all of them or the SS itself). So it's not something that debunks the first point of the OP.
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EGA has no statements of destroying the SS. Venuzdonoa has statements of destroying anything regardless of how sturdy, infinite or eternal it is.
 
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Tatsumi504 said:
Disagree. Not only is this a poor attempt at a downgrade, this is basically the same as the last thread about 2yrs ago which was rejected.

"Venuzdonoa can destroy anything in Existence regardless of how sturdy, Infinite or Eternal it is"
"All Logic is meaningless before Venuzdonoa, it is useless to think about what it can or can't do"

The statement alone already disproves the first two points and is further aided by the fact that the sword has zero anti-feats.

Whether Anos knew about the silver sea or not is meaningless. Among the things of the cosmology anos didn't know about, he didn't know about the full world inside a bubble yet created a spell that won't just destroy the world he knew about but also what he didn't know was beyond it.

Wrong. The Eyes of Purple Destruction don't have reason destroying hax. The Eyes of Purple Destruction are stated to disrupt and destroy order not reason. Reason/Logic>>>>Order. Anos only eyes which are capable of affecting logic are the Eyes of Chaotic Destruction. Venuzdonoa not affecting him has more to do with anos than eyes.
Characters who get absolutely obliterated by Venuzdonoa have been shown to resist the EoPD. EoPD couldn't completely null Befenguzdogma and Graham's EoPD couldn't null Venuzdonoa either.
Anos literally called Venuzdonoa a stick when Avos dilhevia used it against him.

This goes against the lore of the story itself. The reason why every order is a type 1 concept is because they all existed before the world was created and the destruction of any order would destroy the world. For anything to exist, there must be an order governing it. The silver sea exists and has it's own order which is "Power flows from shallow to deep". Everytime anos has done something beyond their common sense they always comment about how there's no such order in the sea. Creation itself is literally order. Nothing can exist without order and Venuzdonoa is able to destroy order itself.

Now the OP has decided to shoot himself in the foot.

By this, the bubbles themselves are not part of creation as they literally just sprout into existence. The world is what the creator god creates inside the bubble hence by the premise of this thread even the destruction of the bubble should be impossible for all characters as they're not a part of creation.

The existence of order that governs the silver sea itself is the proof as I've said above. Nothing can exist without order. Before there was anything, even a world there must be order be it creation, destruction, life, death, time, space etc.

Then he goes ahead to say this

This CRT is a desperate attempt at a downgrade that it enters the realm of hypocrisy irrespective of whether it's intentional or not.
The OP is trying to downgrade Venuzdonoa because it's destruction statement was made before the silver sea was introduced and as such should only be limited to what anos knowledge was.
He is now ignoring the fact that anos has created magic that works beyond what knowledge he had. Why should Venuzdonoa be downgraded because anos didn't know about the silver sea when anos has clearly created things that are beyond the scope of his knowledge?

Shoots themselves in the foot once again. Bubbles are not part of creation only the world inside them yet several characters are capable of affecting the bubbles themselves.

Essentially what I'm saying is that this should be closed as it's not only a poor attempt at a downgrade, it's a repeat of the same arguments used years ago which are all easily refutable.

Venuzdonoa's statement is not limited to creation as it has destroyed things that aren't part of creation. The statement also includes "Regardless of how tough, infinite or eternal it is" which makes Anos beyond boundless but thos wiki likes to downplay.

The OP admitted the first 3 points are weak and limited his main argument to "in Creation" but the light novel changed that to "in existence" and venuzdonoa has already destroyed nonexistence.
"But it couldn't destroy graham". It destroyed graham, effortlessly even. Each time he was destroyed he became deeper nothingness that lacks logic yet Venuzdonoa continued to destroy him regardless.

Lastly, the entire point of the OP is "Anos didn't know about the silver sea when this statement was made". The counter is "Anos has created things beyond what his knowledge is already" hence no arbitrary limiter should be placed on Venuzdonoa when weaker stuff has worked regardless of what knowledge he had.
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1. The only part of my argument that has been "debunked" are the first 3 points. However, if point #4 (which is entirely new) stands, then the other 3 points become immediately relevant.

2. Saying that Venuzdonoa has no anti-feats literally doesn't mean anything, as whether you want to argue the narrative or even Anos' thoughts, Anos had no knowledge of the Silver Sea when he made the statement, and the Silver Sea wasn't narratively introduced either. Therefore, it's only proven that the statement encompassed the scope of the Militia World. Anything beyond that is complete and utter speculation. Venuzdonoa working in Deeper Worlds that are still Worlds as the Militia World is doesn't prove that it can affect the entire Silver Sea itself.

3. Your "no anti-feats" argument is extremely weak, as the statement behind it doesn't include the Silver Sea to begin with. Again, assuming that the statement means that Venuzdonoa could affect the entire Silver Sea when it has no direct statements that it can and no other feats come close in comparison is called headcanon. It might be possible, but nowhere do we have definitive proof. Neither you nor anyone else in this thread have proven a positive, all you've really said is that your misconstrued interpretation of that one statement has no "anti-feats", and therefore scales to the entire cosmology.

4. I'm asking that you or someone else in this thread provide proof of a positive. I'm not arguing a negative claim, I'm arguing that there is no proof of a positive one. And so far, you haven't come close to proving it.
 
Well I agree with the argument that Venuzdonoa's statement without feats close to the level is borderline NFL, and only stops short because it restricts itself to the size of the cosmology of it's series. Still shouldn't be logic we accept.

Meanwhile, Ano's full potential comes from him being the Lion of Destruction prophesied to destroy the while Silver Sea, so while I have some issues, the logic of this downgrade doesn't change anything.
 
Everything12 said:
Well I agree with the argument that Venuzdonoa's statement without feats close to the level is borderline NFL, and only stops short because it restricts itself to the size of the cosmology of it's series. Still shouldn't be logic we accept.

Meanwhile, Ano's full potential comes from him being the Lion of Destruction prophesied to destroy the while Silver Sea, so while I have some issues, the logic of this downgrade doesn't change anything.
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1. My argument isn't against the statement itself. If Anos had made the statement while having knowledge of the Silver Sea, then there would be no problems. However, he didn't have knowledge of the Silver Sea when he made that statement, so there is no proof that Venuzdonoa can affect the entirety of the Silver Sea. I'm not arguing that Venuzdonoa can't destroy the Silver Sea, but that there's no proof that it can.

2. No anti-feats isn't even an argument with legs to stand on, as the statement only referred to the Militia World at the time. Venuzdonoa working in deeper worlds does not by any stretch of the imagination equal Venuzdonoa is capable of destroying the entire Silver Sea, especially since the Silver Sea itself is completely beyond any World.

3. I'm not arguing that the statement means that Venuzdonoa is limited to the scope of the Militia World because Anos didn't know about the Silver Sea. I'm arguing that the statement can't be used to prove that Venuzdonoa can destroy the Silver Sea as it doesn't take the Silver Sea into consideration to begin with, and Venuzdonoa working in deeper worlds doesn't prove that it can destroy the Silver Sea, especially when the Silver Sea is beyond the scope of any Worlds.

4. What this boils down to is the statement doesn't include the Silver Sea to begin with, so any attempt at arguing against "anti-feats" is null, as Venuzdonoa has no anti-feats to the meaning of the statement (Militia World). An anti-feat argument would only apply if Anos meant or implied the Silver Sea itself when he made that statement. The entire premise of my argument is asking for proof of the positive claim that Venuzdonoa can destroy the entire Silver Sea. Venuzdonoa working in Deeper Worlds is an extremely weak argument to use as proof.
 
MaxLevel_King said:
1

1. The only part of my argument that has been "debunked" are the first 3 points. However, if point #4 (which is entirely new) stands, then the other 3 points become immediately relevant.

2. Saying that Venuzdonoa has no anti-feats literally doesn't mean anything, as whether you want to argue the narrative or even Anos' thoughts, Anos had no knowledge of the Silver Sea when he made the statement, and the Silver Sea wasn't narratively introduced either. Therefore, it's only proven that the statement encompassed the scope of the Militia World. Anything beyond that is complete and utter speculation. Venuzdonoa working in Deeper Worlds that are still Worlds as the Militia World is doesn't prove that it can affect the entire Silver Sea itself.

3. Your "no anti-feats" argument is extremely weak, as the statement behind it doesn't include the Silver Sea to begin with. Again, assuming that the statement means that Venuzdonoa could affect the entire Silver Sea when it has no direct statements that it can and no other feats come close in comparison is called headcanon. It might be possible, but nowhere do we have definitive proof. Neither you nor anyone else in this thread have proven a positive, all you've really said is that your misconstrued interpretation of that one statement has no "anti-feats", and therefore scales to the entire cosmology.

4. I'm asking that you or someone else in this thread provide proof of a positive. I'm not arguing a negative claim, I'm arguing that there is no proof of a positive one. And so far, you haven't come close to proving it.
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1. You're point #4 is extremely irrelevant considering it's no longer "anything in creation" and now "anything in existence". When this was brought up you said it changes nothing when the web novel is nothing but a draft to the light novel which contains better explanations and narration stated by the author himself.

2.Anos had no knowledge of the bubble hell he only knew about the "near infinite black sky", "azure sky", "infinite black sky". He had no knowledge of the garden of the 4 tree gods that lie in the deepest part of the azure sky nor eques realm which is beyond even that. Still he created a spell that can destroy not just what was inside the bubble, but the bubble itself with no knowledge about them.
Your hypocrisy is really showing itself here you know?
The statement is "destroy anything in existence regardless of how sturdy, infinite or eternal it is".

3. It's not weak in anyway possible as anti-feats are what's needed to disprove it and make a downgrade. It's not like Venuzdonoa has been affected at all in anyway even when used in the world of magic bullets that has more limited order compared to any other world so far. There is no positive to prove as the statement is still there with no anti-feats.
You claim it's scope is limited to the militia world yet why does it still work perfectly in the silver sea?

4. There is nothing for us to prove as the statement is there. "All logic os meaningless before Venuzdonoa" this has been emphasized time and again hence even the logic of "I didn't know about this so i can't destroy it" is meaningless as well. You have yet to bring anything that's worthy enough to solicit a downgrade here.
 
Everything12 said:
Well I agree with the argument that Venuzdonoa's statement without feats close to the level is borderline NFL, and only stops short because it restricts itself to the size of the cosmology of it's series. Still shouldn't be logic we accept.
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The statement is pure NLF by our standards still because it has always lived up to that statement with zero anti-feats shown, we limit that NLF to the scope of the cosmology.
Everything12 said:
Meanwhile, Ano's full potential comes from him being the Lion of Destruction prophesied to destroy the while Silver Sea, so while I have some issues, the logic of this downgrade doesn't change anything.
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You've just refuted the entire premise of the downgrade with this. Anos on his own is stated of being capable of destroying the silver sea as a perfect lion of destruction.
Venuzdonoa is said to be deeper magic to a person who is not only from the same world the lion of destruction comes from but is also a lion of destruction herself though an imperfect one with her own NLF of an ability in the series that allows her to copy and reproduce any magic she looks at regardless of if she can analyze/ understand it.

So Venuzdonoa is not only magic that is much deeper than the lion of Artzenon (that can destroy the sea) but also has the statement of "destroying anything regardless of how tough, infinite or eternal it is"

Someone should explain to me why anything ≠anything and why logic≠logic.

The silver sea itself follows order (Which is Order flows from Shallow to Deep). Reason>Order, Reason is meaningless before Venuzdonoa.

Asking anos to affect the sea with it is asking to kill everyone as Venuzdonoa destroys/ disrupts order & reason. If all order is disrupted everything will be destroyed as nothing can exist without order.
There is literally an order of Creation, Destruction, Birth, Abortion, Demise/End, Transformation, Gears, Causality, Time, Space, Water, Regeneration, Light, Barriers, Magic Gates, Magic Swords, Magic Eyes, Thoughts, Disorder, Order, Death, Deepening, Piercing, future, traces, sound, dreams e.t.c. For anything you can think of, mundane or not there's an order governing it.
 
So what's next? Anos and Graham being stated to be outside Order was done before the silver sea was introduced. So this means they aren't outside the order of the whole sea right? (when they're clearly stated to be outside all Order, Reason/Logic).
 
Tatsumi504 said:
There is literally an order of Creation, Destruction, Birth, Abortion, Demise/End, Transformation, Gears, Causality, Time, Space, Water, Regeneration, Light, Barriers, Magic Gates, Magic Swords, Magic Eyes, Thoughts, Disorder, Order, Death, Deepening, Piercing, future, traces, sound, dreams e.t.c. For anything you can think of, mundane or not there's an order governing it.
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And even if any one of these is destroyed no matter who stupid the order is. The world gets destroyed. Destroy any order of whether it be dreams,sound, piercing etc no matter how stupid and irrelevant it is, the world gets destroyed.
 
Tatsumi504 said:
You've just refuted the entire premise of the downgrade with this. Anos on his own is stated of being capable of destroying the silver sea as a perfect lion of destruction.
Venuzdonoa is said to be deeper magic to a person who is not only from the same world the lion of destruction comes from but is also a lion of destruction herself though an imperfect one with her own NLF of an ability in the series that allows her to copy and reproduce any magic she looks at regardless of if she can analyze/ understand it.

So Venuzdonoa is not only magic that is much deeper than the lion of Artzenon (that can destroy the sea) but also has the statement of "destroying anything regardless of how tough, infinite or eternal it is"

Someone should explain to me why anything ≠anything and why logic≠logic.

The silver sea itself follows order (Which is Order flows from Shallow to Deep). Reason>Order, Reason is meaningless before Venuzdonoa.

Asking anos to affect the sea with it is asking to kill everyone as Venuzdonoa destroys/ disrupts order & reason. If all order is disrupted everything will be destroyed as nothing can exist without order.
There is literally an order of Creation, Destruction, Birth, Abortion, Demise/End, Transformation, Gears, Causality, Time, Space, Water, Regeneration, Light, Barriers, Magic Gates, Magic Swords, Magic Eyes, Thoughts, Disorder, Order, Death, Deepening, Piercing, future, traces, sound, dreams e.t.c. For anything you can think of, mundane or not there's an order governing it.
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:dis~1:

My exact thoughts... I completely disagree with the thread. Even more so that an almost perfect lion of destruction says that Venuzdonoa is a more powerful and deeper magic than it seems and that it itself is against the lion of destruction and can destroy her implies its power. Besides, Anos is aware of his power as a lion of destruction and has the power to destroy the Silver Sea, Venuz was made by Anos' Eye and the order of destruction, Anos mostly uses the power of the Sun of destruction (Order of Destruction) when he uses venuzdonoa and the power to destroy reason, while Anos is even afraid to use the power of his eye since even for him it is a bottomless abyss.

Besides, the sword itself has already done things that if they didn't have scans you would say they are pure NLF, but it has feats that claim the supposed NLF so try to claim NLF on the sword is bullshit....

And without forgetting that the Silver Sea is completely made by order, order flows constantly from the sea as @Tatsumi504 said, and venuzdonoa lacks, is unbound and can destroy reason > order.

Even 1 or 2 years ago what was considered NLF feats for the sword have scan now and nobody says NLF.
 
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So if I'm understanding this correctly, the entire argument against my thread is that;

1. Venuzdonoa was stated to be capable of destroying anything in existence

2. Venuzdonoa has been shown to work in deeper worlds, therefore there are no anti-feats

3. Anos is a near-perfect LoD, and Parrington claimed that he was "fated to destroy the Silver Sea"

Well, my response is;

1. Venuzdonoa was stated to be capable of destroying anything in existence (which explicitly refers to the Militia World).

2. Since the statement never took the Silver Sea into consideration to begin with, you can't make an argument against anti-feats. The statement only proves that Venuzdonoa holds absolute power in the Militia World. It is pure speculation to take that statement to mean that Venuzdonoa can destroy the Silver Sea itself. Venuzdonoa working in Deeper Worlds does not at all lend credence to that assumption.

Most important part: To further elaborate on this point, what Anos referred to as all of existence was the World and everything in it (because he didn't know about the Silver Sea). Venuzdonoa working in Deeper Worlds is Venuzdonoa working on Worlds and everything in them. However, the Silver Sea and the Worlds in the Silver Sea are two completely different things. Worlds can't even exist in the Silver Sea without being shielded by Bubbles, so you can't equate "all of existence (a World)" and Venuzdonoa working in Deeper Worlds to mean that Venuzdonoa can destroy the entire Silver Sea itself, when Worlds can't even exist in the first place without Bubbles.

3. The LoD statement is a whole other bag of worms that could have it's own discussion. I'm not going to bring that discussion here, and it's not relevant to my talking points about Venuzdonoa.
 
Your supposed response against the claims against your OP make no sense.


All you are saying is that Venuzdonoa's absolute power is all limited to the Militia World, do you know that even a newborn baby from a deeper world can destroy a bubble in a shallow world? You are equating Venuzdonoa's power to that, secondly, Venuzdonoa is able to manipulate the order of the deeper layers which has an innumerably greater effect on reality than shallower layers order, the order that flows in the whole silver sea is the same that venuzdonoa can destroy, its ability to destroy everything is not limited to a bubble of layer 0-1 but to everything in creation and to the order in general, and if we were to go by your claim, venuzdonoa could not even destroy Eques or HFG since these are not limited to Militia world cos they are the main gods of the layer in which they are and are far superior to Militia and Aberneyu and venuzdonoa could destroy them including their order, but if he did then everything would be destroyed by the lack of that same order.

Dereck03 said:
:dis~1:

My exact thoughts... I completely disagree with the thread. Even more so that an almost perfect lion of destruction says that Venuzdonoa is a more powerful and deeper magic than it seems and that it itself is against the lion of destruction and can destroy her implies its power. Besides, Anos is aware of his power as a lion of destruction and has the power to destroy the Silver Sea, Venuz was made by Anos' Eye and the order of destruction, Anos mostly uses the power of the Sun of destruction (Order of Destruction) when he uses venuzdonoa and the power to destroy reason, while Anos is even afraid to use the power of his eye since even for him it is a bottomless abyss.

Besides, the sword itself has already done things that if they didn't have scans you would say they are pure NLF, but it has feats that claim the supposed NLF so try to claim NLF on the sword is bullshit....

And without forgetting that the Silver Sea is completely made by order, order flows constantly from the sea as @Tatsumi504 said, and venuzdonoa lacks, is unbound and can destroy reason > order.

Even 1 or 2 years ago what was considered NLF feats for the sword have scan now and nobody says NLF.
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And you are simply ignoring my entire post, even the deepest order succumbs to venuzdonoa, anything from a deeper world is more durable than anything located in the shallows layers.

Even an inhabitant of a deep world is more powerful than the chief god of each shallow layer.
"....You sir is an inhabitant of the shallow world. It is only natural that I, who was born in a deeper world, would be stronger than the Chief God of your world. However, it is almost inconceivable for someone from the same world to do so...."
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Again, the whole silver sea is made by the order that flows through the shallows layers to the deeper and thus increasing its magnitude and that is what gives the deeper orders their superior potency and which venuzdonoa can destroy and without order = destruction of everything.

The reason why venuzdonoa can destroy everything is because it does not follow reason, and I have been explaining for years that reason > order. I even explained in my post that the power of reason and Anos' eye with which also contribute to the creation of venuz.

What would happen to the silver that is built of order if its order were destroyed? It itself would be destroyed and let it be clear that the order itself is more durable than its structure or the person who maintains the order, for even if the bearer or the structure is destroyed, the order will prevail but if the order is destroyed, then everything will be destroyed.
 
MaxLevel_King said:
So if I'm understanding this correctly, the entire argument against my thread is that;

1. Venuzdonoa was stated to be capable of destroying anything in existence

2. Venuzdonoa has been shown to work in deeper worlds, therefore there are no anti-feats

3. Anos is a near-perfect LoD, and Parrington claimed that he was "fated to destroy the Silver Sea"

Well, my response is;

1. Venuzdonoa was stated to be capable of destroying anything in existence (which explicitly refers to the Militia World).

2. Since the statement never took the Silver Sea into consideration to begin with, you can't make an argument against anti-feats. The statement only proves that Venuzdonoa holds absolute power in the Militia World. It is pure speculation to take that statement to mean that Venuzdonoa can destroy the Silver Sea itself. Venuzdonoa working in Deeper Worlds does not at all lend credence to that assumption.

Most important part: To further elaborate on this point, what Anos referred to as all of existence was the World and everything in it (because he didn't know about the Silver Sea). Venuzdonoa working in Deeper Worlds is Venuzdonoa working on Worlds and everything in them. However, the Silver Sea and the Worlds in the Silver Sea are two completely different things. Worlds can't even exist in the Silver Sea without being shielded by Bubbles, so you can't equate "all of existence (a World)" and Venuzdonoa working in Deeper Worlds to mean that Venuzdonoa can destroy the entire Silver Sea itself, when Worlds can't even exist in the first place without Bubbles.

3. The LoD statement is a whole other bag of worms that could have it's own discussion. I'm not going to bring that discussion here, and it's not relevant to my talking points about Venuzdonoa.
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My guy as someone whose dealt with my fair share of new user downgrade CRTs (comes with the territory of being a Sonic supporter here) this thread is going nowhere fast, you haven't posted a single piece of cited evidence to support your claims (no links, no translations, no images, etc) moreover while I understand not agreeing with a specific verse's rating or jurisdictions you went about it in one of worst ways possible. As a new user you should've participated in the discussions here, make some connections and familiarise yourself with how the due process works here before posting a CRT let alone a major one such as this, which ofc leads to a mess (hence the several sarcastic and facetious replies at the beginning).

I've got zero stakes in this CRT but this just proves the old discussions from years past that sadly got rejected (although not mandatory) user's should really be encouraged to inform verse supporters or at the very least give some forewarning/inform a staff member before posting a major upgrade/downgrade CRT for a well known or iconic verse, it's just common courtesy imo which sadly isn't so common online.

Regardless of the outcome, I'll speak no further except that I 100% agree with @Vietthai96 comments, I too know what it's like to get frustrated but let's maintain civil discourse (at worst).
 
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I believe someone mentioned it scaling above something else that could destroy the Silver Sea. If that's the case then this is a pretty open and shut case. I would, however, like to say that even if the conclusions in the OP are rejected, the wording should be changed and the scaling should be added if it's not already there. A note regarding Anos not knowing about it or whatever should be added as well as to why it doesn't debunk anything.
 
Tarang123 said:
I believe someone mentioned it scaling above something else that could destroy the Silver Sea. If that's the case then this is a pretty open and shut case. I would, however, like to say that even if the conclusions in the OP are rejected, the wording should be changed and the scaling should be added if it's not already there. A note regarding Anos not knowing about it or whatever should be added as well as to why it doesn't debunk anything.
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I am not really feeling a significance or importance for a blog attention to explain the concerns of people. The scaling is fine for now.
 
Dereck03 said:
Your supposed response against the claims against your OP make no sense.


All you are saying is that Venuzdonoa's absolute power is all limited to the Militia World, do you know that even a newborn baby from a deeper world can destroy a bubble in a shallow world? You are equating Venuzdonoa's power to that, secondly, Venuzdonoa is able to manipulate the order of the deeper layers which has an innumerably greater effect on reality than shallower layers order, the order that flows in the whole silver sea is the same that venuzdonoa can destroy, its ability to destroy everything is not limited to a bubble of layer 0-1 but to everything in creation and to the order in general, and if we were to go by your claim, venuzdonoa could not even destroy Eques or HFG since these are not limited to Militia world cos they are the main gods of the layer in which they are and are far superior to Militia and Aberneyu and venuzdonoa could destroy them including their order, but if he did then everything would be destroyed by the lack of that same order.


And you are simply ignoring my entire post, even the deepest order succumbs to venuzdonoa, anything from a deeper world is more durable than anything located in the shallows layers.

Even an inhabitant of a deep world is more powerful than the chief god of each shallow layer.


Again, the whole silver sea is made by the order that flows through the shallows layers to the deeper and thus increasing its magnitude and that is what gives the deeper orders their superior potency and which venuzdonoa can destroy and without order = destruction of everything.

The reason why venuzdonoa can destroy everything is because it does not follow reason, and I have been explaining for years that reason > order. I even explained in my post that the power of reason and Anos' eye with which also contribute to the creation of venuz.

What would happen to the silver that is built of order if its order were destroyed? It itself would be destroyed and let it be clear that the order itself is more durable than its structure or the person who maintains the order, for even if the bearer or the structure is destroyed, the order will prevail but if the order is destroyed, then everything will be destroyed.
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. . .

You said all of that, and nothing of what you said means anything or debunks the points I made. To begin with, you're not even arguing against the points I made. You twisted my words and have been arguing against that, not my actual claim. I never claimed that the statement means that Venuzdonoa's effectiveness is limited to the Militia World. I claimed that the only thing that the statement proves is that Venuzdonoa holds absolute power in the Militia World, and that applying that statement to include the entirety of the Silver Sea itself is merely an assumption, and assumptions shouldn't be treated as facts.

Let me go over this again;
1. The statement is that Venuzdonoa can destroy anything in existence.
2. Anos didn't know about the Silver Sea when he made this statement, he was explicitly referring to the Militia World.
3. What Anos meant by anything in existence=the entire World and everything in it (Militia World).
4. The Worlds in the Silver Sea and the Silver Sea itself are two completely different things. Worlds can't even survive in the Silver Sea without being surrounded by Bubbles.
5. Venuzdonoa has worked in Deeper Worlds (again, what Anos referred to as anything in existence was the World he was in), but Deeper Worlds and the Silver Sea itself are not the same thing.
6. No statements or feats prove that Venuzdonoa can destroy the entire Silver Sea. At the very best, you only have assumptions to work with, and assumptions aren't worthy of being definitively scaled to something.
 
Blah, Blah, Blah is all I understand, you hide behind the fact that the absolute power of Venuz is only in the militia world and it is easy to say NO since Venuz can destroy the order of the deeper layers which is above the shallower layer orders, the deeper the order, any deep layer object, god or person is much stronger and more durable than anything in the existence of a shallow layer, let alone the deeper orders, all the assumptions you say are assumptions are easily rejected by the premise that I mentioned and I will mention again. ...

The order is the most powerful thing in the Silver Sea .... The silver sea is made by order that flows constantly, order can prevail even if its bearer or structure is destroyed, but if it is not replaced by something else, then order will be disrupted and therefore be destroyed, the order of a deeper layer is uncountable or imnuberable times more powerful than the order of a shallow layer, that is the difference between layers, it means that in a deeper layer everything will be countless times more powerful than a shallow layer, Venuz is able to destroy even the deepest order and still be called "A deeper magic" by an almost perfect lion of destruction and be more powerful than this one, Venuz has the power to destroy the reason thanks to the power of Anos' Eyes, the reason > order, Venuz has only used mainly the power of the order of destruction and the power to destroy reason but has never exercised the power of Anos' Eyes since even Anos a lion of destruction who can destroy the silver sea is afraid to explore the power of his eye and he described it as a bottomless abyss, the same power is in venuzdonoa.

I will not comment further on this, because it is the same as in this 3 old threads, nothing has changed, the only thing is the time and that there are more and more people trying to downgrade maou
Dereck03 said:
vsbattles.com

Venuzdonoa/Anos possible downgrade

This is my first CRT. I believe Venuzdonoa shouldn't be 2-B. Here's why Note: Every scan and translation were gotten from past CRTs, the accepted cosmology blog for the verse and Anos page as I am not quite knowledgeable on the verse. Reason why Venuzdonoa is 2-B "Venuzdonoa can destroy all...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

Wasn't all of this discussed before in the big 3?
Click to expand...


They ask for proof of SS being destroyed, but if the order in the silver sea or the general order in a layer is destroyed, then everything would be destroyed, which has already been demonstrated and obviously Anos does not want it to happen, that is why he did not destroy the HFG order.
 
There straight up seems to be nothing for him being able to destroy the entire silver sea other then being fated to destroy it guess he isn’t outside fate then which is not Venuzdonoa’s power
so he would still retain his tier but Venuzdonoa would lose it
 
theultimate5105 said:
There straight up seems to be nothing for him being able to destroy the entire silver sea other then being fated to destroy it guess he isn’t outside fate then which is not Venuzdonoa’s power
Click to expand...
The lions of destruction can destroy silver sea, venuzdonoa is comparable to Anos and also carries the power of Anos' Eyes that even Anos fears of its powers.
theultimate5105 said:
guess he isn’t outside fate then
Click to expand...
There are characters in MG that are so OP that they can even go against the order as well as main enemies, so some of them doesn't even care about the laws. For example Eques which also has fate hax that works on Misfits
 
Last edited:
Dereck03 said:
Blah, Blah, Blah is all I understand, you hide behind the fact that the absolute power of Venuz is only in the militia world and it is easy to say NO since Venuz can destroy the order of the deeper layers which is above the shallower layer orders, the deeper the order, any deep layer object, god or person is much stronger and more durable than anything in the existence of a shallow layer, let alone the deeper orders, all the assumptions you say are assumptions are easily rejected by the premise that I mentioned and I will mention again. ...

The order is the most powerful thing in the Silver Sea .... The silver sea is made by order that flows constantly, order can prevail even if its bearer or structure is destroyed, but if it is not replaced by something else, then order will be disrupted and therefore be destroyed, the order of a deeper layer is uncountable or imnuberable times more powerful than the order of a shallow layer, that is the difference between layers, it means that in a deeper layer everything will be countless times more powerful than a shallow layer, Venuz is able to destroy even the deepest order and still be called "A deeper magic" by an almost perfect lion of destruction and be more powerful than this one, Venuz has the power to destroy the reason thanks to the power of Anos' Eyes, the reason > order, Venuz has only used mainly the power of the order of destruction and the power to destroy reason but has never exercised the power of Anos' Eyes since even Anos a lion of destruction who can destroy the silver sea is afraid to explore the power of his eye and he described it as a bottomless abyss, the same power is in venuzdonoa.

I will not comment further on this, because it is the same as in this 3 old threads, nothing has changed, the only thing is the time and that there are more and more people trying to downgrade maou



They ask for proof of SS being destroyed, but if the order in the silver sea or the general order in a layer is destroyed, then everything would be destroyed, which has already been demonstrated and obviously Anos does not want it to happen, that is why he did not destroy the HFG order.
Click to expand...
"Blah, Blah, Blah. . ."

You're comment straight up just doesn't debunk or refute any of the actual points I just made, so it has no merit.
 
ImmortalDread said:
I am not really feeling a significance or importance for a blog attention to explain the concerns of people. The scaling is fine for now.
Click to expand...
The thing is, I believe statements of "destroying all things in existence" are still quite vague and NLF-like. So bringing in an actual example like scaling above things that can specifically affect the entirety of the Silver Sea would be a good addition just to confirm the validity of this.

And I do believe addressing the lack of knowledge that Anos had of the Silver Sea is important. A note is fine
 
DaReaperMan said:
Yes!
Click to expand...
To get this out of the way beforehand, what I'm about to say has nothing to do with my previous points about Venuzdonoa. This is solely my refutation of the LoD argument.

1. "Lions of Destruction can destroy the Silver Sea (according to Dereck03)".

Absolutely not. The other Lions of Destruction (Naga, Bobonga, and Kostoria) were only stated to possess the power to destroy nations of a Deep World according to Balzarondo, who's actually fought them.

2. With his red threads of fate, Parrington took the body parts of the other Lions of Destruction to become a near-perfect Lion of Destruction himself. When he and Anos fought, they only affected the Deep World they were on, and didn't even destroy it. Keep in mind that even a single layer of the Silver Sea has countless Worlds (Bubbles) inside it, and the fight between Parrington and Anos only affected a single Deep World, which is infinitely small compared to even a single layer.

3. There are different ways to interpret Parrington's statement that Anos is "fated to destroy the Silver Sea", so why would you take it to mean that Anos can literally destroy the entire Silver Sea at once when none of his other feats are even remotely comparable?

4. If you interpret Parrington's statement that "Anos is fated to destroy the Silver Sea" as "Anos can literally destroy the entire Silver Sea at once", then consider, how would Parrington know that? The original conceptual LoD of which Anos is a perfect incarnation of is completely featless, and has never been stated by the author himself or the other characters in the story that it has destroyed the Silver Sea, much less an entire layer, so how is (that interpretation) of Parrington's statement proof?

5. There is absolutely no proof backing any of your arguments.
 
Tarang123 said:
Scans for the first part? The lions of destruction being able to destroy the Silver Sea part
Click to expand...
It is literally in the explanation page.
Tarang123 said:
The thing is, I believe statements of "destroying all things in existence" are still quite vague and NLF-like. So bringing in an actual example like scaling above things that can specifically affect the entirety of the Silver Sea would be a good addition just to confirm the validity of this.

And I do believe addressing the lack of knowledge that Anos had of the Silver Sea is important. A note is fine
Click to expand...
I don't mind it.
 
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